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Otto Weston wrote:
I totally disagree with the OP in regard to Fulgrim -- he didn't just dive into Chaos. He had his mind taken over by a Daemon.

He was fighting it at first, but when the Daemon forced him to kill the Iron Hands Primarch and then let him regain control long enough to see what he had done - it broke his spirit.

If he could ever regain the courage/spirit to fight back and if he ever won his mental fight against the Daemon I would say that he should be forgiven.

Latest stories revealt hat Fulgrim did break free of the daemon eventually but decided to serve Slaanesh after all. It was first revealed in a short story of all things (Reflection Crack'd).

Well, one can argue that Fulgrim is lying and the daemon still has control, but given that Lorgar laughed at the daemon after what apparently was a secret conversation with the real Fulgrim before this all happened, I'm inclined to think that it really is the real Fulgrim now.

...the whole sudden 360 turn of the thing (that didn't really have much lead up, development, or explanation, really, far as I can tell) makes me think they just threw it in when they realized how lame and pathetic it was that the Prince of Pleasure couldn't even get an actual Primarch soul so they decided to add these events that made it the actual Fulgrim that became a daemon prince (....how/why would a daemon possessing someone become a daemon prince, anyways? That's rather redundant)

It is also imperial policy to kill anything and everything and use Chaos as an excuse

 Psienesis wrote:
...Curze is based on Kurtz from Joseph Conrad's "Hearts of Darkness", and is the same character played by Marlon Brando in "Apocalypse Now". The dude is evil, through and through.

More accurately the Night Haunter is evil through and through. Imo you really have to think of them as a split personality ala Jeykell and Hyde, Konrad Curze was a psychically troubled primarch who was consumed by the personality he adopted for legitimately good reasons. Its part of the reason he allowed himself to be killed, he realised that the evil part of his personality had taken over.

@barnowl. I'm guessing you haven't read up on all the latest fluff. Fulgrim has retaken control of his body in the short story 'The Reflection Crack’d' and later on in 'Angel Exterminatus' is wholeheartedly embracing Chaos.

Most of the Traitor Primarch's are victims of the Emperors terrible people management skills (usually because he is too focused on the big picture). Magnus and Angron are probably the most hard done by. Magnus pushed the boundaries (which is precisely what he was designed to do), got slapped for it with no reason offered as the Emperor didn't want to explain the big 4 to the world, tried to do the right thing and messed up bad in the process and then got his ass handed to him by the Wolves due to Horus's manipulation. Angron should have been left to die at Desh'ea, he was never commited to the crusade in the first place and unless the Emperor had some big plan to remove the implants destroying his mind then it was only a matter of time. I find it hard to consider him a traitor at all because he was never really loyal. Lorgar falls into this category somewhat as well, but was completely aware of what he was getting himself into after the Emperor told him to stop worshiping him so imo isn't really forgivable.

francieum wrote:
I find Cruze really forgivable since his birth he was haunted with dark visions of the future, He landed on a world orbiting a dying sun where everyone was either a criminal or depressed he was alone for his whole life and had to fend for himself killing any who tried to harm him. He eventually seized control of the planet and turned it away from crime and then was promptly found by the big E and told to lead his army in the great crusade. Eventually after learning that his planet had reverted back to the state it was in before he got there he blew it up which he saw as the only true way to solve the problem, the emperor was out raged despite having done the same thing to countless worlds and declared Cruze a traitor.

He even states this to the assassin sent to kill him who he allowed to kill him just to prove a point.

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your False Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

The backslide of Nostramo was not the Emperor's fault (for once something I can't blame on him) it was Curze's on methods. Curze did nothing to reform or improve his world like Dorn, The Lion, Guilliman or Lorgar. He simply cowed the population into obeying through fear, which of course meant when the figurehead of fear was removed, so was their loyalty. Curze had a serious case of tunnel vision, even his 1st Captain, Sevatar rebukes him and tells him that fear was not the only way, merely the only way he ever tried.

He never got branded a traitor for that action, Dorn tried to bring him to account but he fled into the void until Horus started his rebellion. And the point was that the exterminatus of Nostramo was unjustified. The world had not rebelled, it still owed fealty to the Emperor, it was simply corrupt and ridden with crime. You can force laws on someone but you can't force morals. Konrad never taught his world morality because he had none of his own, in fact in his absence, the gangs used the Night Haunter's own tactics, of bringing down other gangs with fear and intimidation.

That quote you posted was a lie, he did not "merely punishe those who had wronged" In Void Stalker, it specifically states that The Night Lords were ordered to terrorise the Eastern fringe, flaying, burning, maiming and killing, all in the name of provoking retribution from the Imperium. They were indiscriminate in their slaughter. Curze didn't even hold loyalty to Horus, he simply went with the side that let him do what he wanted. The Night Lords mostly abandoned Horus after Thramas anyway, the force that went on to hit Terra was just token defiance that by that point, they had nothing to lose by bleeding the imperium as badly as they could, but make no mistake, they cared nothing for any cause, either Horus's perceived one to save humanity, or the underlying Chaos one to corrupt it.

To other people posting, what's with all the Fulgrim defending?
Fulgrim was the worst of the lot, he had the least reason to turn; honour prestige, popularity, respect: all of these belonged to him already, he was the perfect son and he threw it all away out of greed and vanity.
The rot of the legion set in before Laer and the Daemon sword. It set in when he let self aggrandising men like Eidolon, or sycophants like Vairosean become standard in senior command. Tarvitz comments on it a bunch of times, how the Legion was supposed to be about perfectly executed methods of war, but had gradually started to become arrogant and superior.
Fulgrim never once tried to resist the Daemon in the sword, in fact he was so arrogant, that simply because it told him what he wanted to hear, he believed it was his conscience, guiding him to greatness. That is idiocy on the scale of a deranged teenager, not befitting a Primarch. He allowed Fabius to poison his Legion in the most vile of ways, using the Legion's unyeilding loyalty to force officers to undergo procedures that perverted them and then spreading to the rank and file like a cancer. He knew it was wrong from the start but he let him do it because Fabius knew how to appeal to Fulgrim's narcissism. Dorian Grey is an obvious influence, but Dorian Grey was not a sympathetic character either, he was a self absorbed, vain creature who was too much of a coward to repent so instead falls deeper and deeper into depravity, created a myriad of excuses not to change and shifting blame onto others.

Fulgrim was pathetic even before Slaanesh touched his soul. He was the one and only Primarch who could have tempered Curze, and yet when his brother came to him with fears of the future, Fulgrim played the sympathetic ear, but was really just concerned that Curze had proved to be imperfect and that it would reflect badly on himself to remain close to him. Instead he betrayed his brother's trust, treated him like a made animal and went straight to Dorn.

Sure Fulgrim showed a moment of remorse after killing his brother but what does he do? Right his wrongs? Destroy the Legion that he has seen corrupted? Try to kill one of his Traitor brothers to settle the score? Call his men back to try and spare a few Sallies and Ravens...no, he asked the Daemon to end it all. There is no Primarch, more pathetic and weak than Fulgrim, no traitor I despise more.

The only one that I believe can be forgiven is Magnus, because he was the only one who truly tried the alternatives. Even after having his spine snapped by Russ and his homeworld burned, it took him the best part of a year to reluctantly join Horus. many other's like Lorgar and Perturabo believed they had no other alternative, Lorgar because he wanted to save humanity and Perurabo because he thought he could not be forgiven for Olympia. But they were so blinded by their perceptions, just like Fulgrim and Curze, that they never explored an alternative, they went with the easiest truth and that was Horus. Only Magnus truly tried all avenues until he was left with extinction or betrayal.

The notable exception is Angron. He cannot be forgiven yet requires no forgiveness for he never betrayed his cause. A Tiger cannot be blamed when it turns on the owner who slapped a chain around it's neck and tried treating it like a pet dog. It was simply in his nature to run wild and kill.

Even if crusade had won, angron would have been surplus anyway, a brutal blunt bloddy hammer, ideal for conquest but no use for jobs other than that.

Some where just seemed made for the task, then well they have no purpose anymore.

His fall to chaos was probably not a if, but when, even if all went good, crusade complete, his whole anger seemed endless.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
It is also imperial policy to kill anything and everything and use Chaos as an excuse

Quite a few Space Marine chapters were excommunicated and declared traitors for doing that. The Crimson Slaughter being the latest one, but there are others earlier in the fluff that tried to use the "They were corrupted by Chaos!" excuse under questionable circumstances that were declared renegate or at the very least censured by other branches.

The Imperium is actually against needless wasting of the Emperor's lives. If you're gonna genocide humans for heresy, you'd better at least have some proof.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

The backslide of Nostramo was not the Emperor's fault (for once something I can't blame on him) it was Curze's on methods. Curze did nothing to reform or improve his world like Dorn, The Lion, Guilliman or Lorgar. He simply cowed the population into obeying through fear, which of course meant when the figurehead of fear was removed, so was their loyalty. Curze had a serious case of tunnel vision, even his 1st Captain, Sevatar rebukes him and tells him that fear was not the only way, merely the only way he ever tried.

I think its important to note that the primarchs, much like any other individual, are a largely a product of their environment. Others like the Lion, Guilliman, Lorgar, etc. were raised by people on their respective planets to have certain values. They then "improved" their worlds based on those values. However, Curze had no such upbringing. He raised himself on gang-ridden streets. Without someone to teach him higher values he "improved" his world the way his child-like understanding suggested. If they fear punishment, they won't misbehave. I have trouble blaming Nostramo on Curze because he too is a wild animal; thus when his actions don't contribute to a civilization you cannot complain.

I think the Emperor really is at fault here given that it was plain to see what Nostramo was like when he got there, yet he sends Curze away on the crusade anyway. Seeing his son ruling through fear, he could have taken the time to try to set Curze on the right path. It is the emperors fault for rushing the crusade along injecting these mentally f'd up primarchs into the surge to get fast results rather than spend the time making sure each of them had a solid foundation. Chaos stole the infant primarchs from the Emp so he could not raise them right. Rather than putting things to right, the emp just blindly puts them in charge of the most powerful armies in the galaxy. What can you expect to happen? What really makes this hard to swallow is that the big E is supposed to be real smart n' stuff, so why are his actions as short sighted as many of the mentally stunted primarchs? Things like this are why the Emperor really does a lot to sully the setting for me.

I think Fulgrim gets way to much hate, all lot of people call him an arrogant jerk but it's more that he held himself and his contemporaries to incredibly high standards and looked down upon people who didn't meet them. This to me is how he connects with Ferrus. Additionally, there is no proof that he escaped the Daemon as it is very likely that the daemon lied his way out of it.

Magnus is a tragic figure as is Lorgar.

I can understand Angron's Anger, if the Emperor had helped Angron's slave army he would have been a different person.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I can understand Angron's Anger, if the Emperor had helped Angron's slave army he would have been a different person.

I don't think the Emperor saving them would have done much for Angron's anger issues or made him much "different" in his feelings about the situation. Beyond the fact that the Butcher's Nails amplified his aggression, his disdain for the Emperor went beyond the death of his comrades. I think Angron's always been a free spirit that was resentful of being tied down by the bureaucracy of the Imperium and was going to remain resentful of the situation until an opportunity to transcend it presented itself. In this way, I think Angron's betrayal was inevitable.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I can understand Angron's Anger, if the Emperor had helped Angron's slave army he would have been a different person.

I don't think the Emperor saving them would have done much for Angron's anger issues or made him much "different" in his feelings about the situation. Beyond the fact that the Butcher's Nails amplified his aggression, his disdain for the Emperor went beyond the death of his comrades. I think Angron's always been a free spirit that was resentful of being tied down by the bureaucracy of the Imperium and was going to remain resentful of the situation until an opportunity to transcend it presented itself. In this way, I think Angron's betrayal was inevitable.

But if The Big E had helped Angron, most of those pit slaves would have become marines and Angron would have happily butchered planets for the Emperor, he would have focused his anger on something else instead of the Emperor.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I can understand Angron's Anger, if the Emperor had helped Angron's slave army he would have been a different person.

I don't think the Emperor saving them would have done much for Angron's anger issues or made him much "different" in his feelings about the situation. Beyond the fact that the Butcher's Nails amplified his aggression, his disdain for the Emperor went beyond the death of his comrades. I think Angron's always been a free spirit that was resentful of being tied down by the bureaucracy of the Imperium and was going to remain resentful of the situation until an opportunity to transcend it presented itself. In this way, I think Angron's betrayal was inevitable.

But if The Big E had helped Angron, most of those pit slaves would have become marines and Angron would have happily butchered planets for the Emperor, he would have focused his anger on something else instead of the Emperor.

I disagree. Angron didn't ask for his help nor did he want it. He wanted to die with his comrades. It's likely that even if those gladiators had been saved and inducted into the World Eaters (unlikely because of the young age requirement for most traditional Astartes procedures) that he would have viewed service to the Emperor as nothing more than a new form of slavery.

sirlotsofpain wrote:
Traitor primarchs forgivable

Forgivable for what?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Most of the traitor primarchs, as of the Heresy book series, at least have sympathetic qualities, as almost every one of them are products of their environment.

That doesn't justify their actions, however.

They were all a product of how they were bought up and they were all subject to human imperfections and weaknesses. Where's the crime in being human?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Most of the traitor primarchs, as of the Heresy book series, at least have sympathetic qualities, as almost every one of them are products of their environment.

That doesn't justify their actions, however.

They were all a product of how they were bought up and they were all subject to human imperfections and weaknesses. Where's the crime in being human?

Well, killing billions of innocent people is a start.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Most of the traitor primarchs, as of the Heresy book series, at least have sympathetic qualities, as almost every one of them are products of their environment.

That doesn't justify their actions, however.

They were all a product of how they were bought up and they were all subject to human imperfections and weaknesses. Where's the crime in being human?

Yeah "Sorry I massacred millions and betrayed my own brothers and killed warriors from my own legions, but Im just a human...well, partially"...hmmm...nope, that doesnt work. Most of them acted like spoiled brats because Daddy liked someone better. OK, Horus was already "infected" and lets just say Angron and Curze were already not completely sane so there might be some excuse in front of 40K Nurnberg tribunal...

Still, imperfection in someones character isnt excuse to betrayal and mass murder. If you need to ask where is crime in such actions, you have far more relativization in blood than me - and thats some feat! There is no crime in "being human", but there is crime in killing your brothers, your friends, your father, your retainers and especially people you were supposed to protect..

Also, this may be a topic for another time, but you could argue that the physiology and creation of the Primarchs is so far from human that it's hard to use their "human nature" as an excuse for their actions. They're so vastly different from humans that one of the main reason they couldn't save Horus in the medicae bay in False Gods was because they had no clue how his body worked.

The only one of them truly unforgivable is Perturabo, the rest have mitigating factors. Hmm maybe Mortarion as well.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Most of the traitor primarchs, as of the Heresy book series, at least have sympathetic qualities, as almost every one of them are products of their environment.

That doesn't justify their actions, however.

They were all a product of how they were bought up and they were all subject to human imperfections and weaknesses. Where's the crime in being human?

Yeah "Sorry I massacred millions and betrayed my own brothers and killed warriors from my own legions, but Im just a human...well, partially"...hmmm...nope, that doesnt work. Most of them acted like spoiled brats because Daddy liked someone better. OK, Horus was already "infected" and lets just say Angron and Curze were already not completely sane so there might be some excuse in front of 40K Nurnberg tribunal...

Still, imperfection in someones character isnt excuse to betrayal and mass murder. If you need to ask where is crime in such actions, you have far more relativization in blood than me - and thats some feat! There is no crime in "being human", but there is crime in killing your brothers, your friends, your father, your retainers and especially people you were supposed to protect..

I always viewed it as a snowball effect, they started out small and eventually their actions grew greater and greater until they could no longer control them and were basically completely under the power of their gods. I never said being human was an excuse I meant it as a reason. We also have to consider that many of them were marked by the gods since birth, as they were whispered to in their stasis pods so even from the beginning half of them were screwed.

Angron, Lorgar and Magnus have the most justification, as I see it.

Lorgar was devoted but misguided. I didn't help that his two closest advisors were vipers, but Monarchia was a hideously bungled response.

Magnu was backe d into a corner by the Imperium's hipocrisy. The whole shebang had a psyker at the helm and as the chief advisor, relied on psykers for stellar communication, navigation and such, but um, no, it's all wrong! Like Lorgar, a simpe sit-down to explain the existence of daemons and what strenghtens them could have nipped this in the bud.

Angron is possibly the most justified and forgivable, despite his brutality. He got easily the worst deal of all his brother, mutilated as a child into a war beast. Then he was abducted from his sworn blood-brothers and cast into serving his distant, uncaring father. I love it how he tells Russ that if it were not for the Nails, he would have rebelled instantly and beheaded the Emperor for being a slaving tyrant.

Fulgrim is easily the lest believable. Someone aware of psykers should have been more suspicious of that damn talking sword, and his pride and arrogance are just insufferable.

Mortarion is a bit of a cypher. He doesn't seem to have the fiery spite required to betray his former side on such a grand scale. I can see what Angron, Horus, Manus and even Kurze wanted to accomplish by rebelling, but Mortarion? Not a clue.

It's pretty funny how hilariously IGNORED Mortarion is by BL/GW. Even Angron, who most people regarded as the most 2-dimensional primarch, was given more depth and exploration than Mortarion as far as I can tell. I think his appearance in Scars was practically a "Hey look everyone! I exist! ...and no one in-universe-or-out cares! But not many people remember you exist either, Khan, so join me!" thing (Khan might as well just have replied "Yea, but this is my book. Where's yours?").

Then again, maybe most fans would regard Mortarion as 2-dimensional too if they remembered he existed and had a more blatantly obvious name like Angron did (not that "Mortarian" is a very subtle name, but "Angron" is a lot more to the point).

 Flippa wrote:
The only one of them truly unforgivable is Perturabo, the rest have mitigating factors. Hmm maybe Mortarion as well.

 Flippa wrote:
Perturabo

wat

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
The only one of them truly unforgivable is Perturabo, the rest have mitigating factors. Hmm maybe Mortarion as well.

 Flippa wrote:
Perturabo

wat

Poor old Perturabo was, like many other Primarchs, mistreated pretty badly. They pretty much spat upon everything he did, and didn't even care that he was a great architect (because he also designed civilian buildings, outrageous!) in favour of Dorn.

The Emperor was a bad father, and that pretty much caused the entire heresy.

Angron - Emperor took him away from his battle brothers and the only ones who had ever cared for him at the moment they needed him most. Then the Mechanicum said that the Brain nails would end Angron before the Crusade's end so the Emperor gave up on him as a lost cause , but a useful one to the crusade. He didn't even try helping Angron.

Magnus - A powerful psyker who saw a vision of the Horus Heresy and that Horus had been corrupted. He knew he wouldn't be able to get to Terra to warn the Emperor with conventional means and so tried to use his powers to get himself there. By teleporting himself there he accidentally broke the Emperor's webway experiments and for that he got named a heretic, and the Emperor wouldn't even listen to his explanations about how Horus had fallen to Chaos. Then the Emperor set the Space Wolves on Magnus and his legion.

Lorgar - He never wanted to be a general, all he wanted to do was worship the Emperor. He built cathedrals on every planet he conquered with the Crusade, and wrote/preached worship of the Emperor. The Emperor then had the Ultramarines tear down his largest Cathedral and forced him and his legion into bowing to the other Primarchs and him. Then Lorgar got corrupted because of his two closest allies who were turned to Chaos.

Kurze - Got shafted by the Emperor because he was forced to make a fighting legion out of Criminals, Murderers and the corrupt. When he had to drop out of the Crusade due to disciplinary issues he got taunted/ insulted by most of the "Loyalist", brothers. So when the Heresy came along he was like, "Why not?" and joined the brothers that hadn't treated him badly. He knew it was wrong but it was a "FU" to the Empy and the loyalists, but he let the Assassin kill him.

Perturabo - Was a scholar and an advocate for democracy. He also was a great architect who loved to build things. He was forced to be a general and was the best at tearing stuff down, even though it hurt him to do it because it was against his nature. The 'Loyalist' brothers pretty much shat on everything he did and treated him like crap.

If he had been a good father, there might not have been a heresy and if there was, it would have been a lot smaller and later. Maybe Angron would have led one if he couldn't have been helped. Maybe Perturabo would have led one to try installing a democracy.

Some of them are kind of understandable...
Others are less so.

20 years ago or more it was written that the Heresy occurred. All other details that might make the various protagonists sympathetic or otherwise needs to be taken with the knowledge that the Heresy was a foregone conclusion by the time the BL books were written.

People are confusing "sympathetic" with "justified/forgivable" ITT. Being mistreated doesn't justify slaughtering untold trillions of innocents. Getting a bum deal in life doesn't justify slaughtering untold trillions of innocents. Angron, Perturabo, Curze, Lorgar. None of these people are forgivable, and none of their actions were ever justified. Having a crap life doesn't give you a blank check to become a monster.

Otto Weston wrote:
The Emperor was a bad father, and that pretty much caused the entire heresy.

Angron - Emperor took him away from his battle brothers and the only ones who had ever cared for him at the moment they needed him most. Then the Mechanicum said that the Brain nails would end Angron before the Crusade's end so the Emperor gave up on him as a lost cause , but a useful one to the crusade. He didn't even try helping Angron.

Magnus - A powerful psyker who saw a vision of the Horus Heresy and that Horus had been corrupted. He knew he wouldn't be able to get to Terra to warn the Emperor with conventional means and so tried to use his powers to get himself there. By teleporting himself there he accidentally broke the Emperor's webway experiments and for that he got named a heretic, and the Emperor wouldn't even listen to his explanations about how Horus had fallen to Chaos. Then the Emperor set the Space Wolves on Magnus and his legion.

Lorgar - He never wanted to be a general, all he wanted to do was worship the Emperor. He built cathedrals on every planet he conquered with the Crusade, and wrote/preached worship of the Emperor. The Emperor then had the Ultramarines tear down his largest Cathedral and forced him and his legion into bowing to the other Primarchs and him. Then Lorgar got corrupted because of his two closest allies who were turned to Chaos.

Kurze - Got shafted by the Emperor because he was forced to make a fighting legion out of Criminals, Murderers and the corrupt. When he had to drop out of the Crusade due to disciplinary issues he got taunted/ insulted by most of the "Loyalist", brothers. So when the Heresy came along he was like, "Why not?" and joined the brothers that hadn't treated him badly. He knew it was wrong but it was a "FU" to the Empy and the loyalists, but he let the Assassin kill him.

Perturabo - Was a scholar and an advocate for democracy. He also was a great architect who loved to build things. He was forced to be a general and was the best at tearing stuff down, even though it hurt him to do it because it was against his nature. The 'Loyalist' brothers pretty much shat on everything he did and treated him like crap.

If he had been a good father, there might not have been a heresy and if there was, it would have been a lot smaller and later. Maybe Angron would have led one if he couldn't have been helped. Maybe Perturabo would have led one to try installing a democracy.

Kurze to me is the most unforgivable of the traitors and the biggest hypocrite of them all.

He could have done things differently but he activelly chose not to so.

Yet he despises his own sons and is arrogantly dismissive of his brothers while being the worst of them.

Sevatar verbally destroyed him to the point that he had to pull rank on him.

Vulkan basically called him out for the pathetic sad little man that he is.

I mostly agree with your views on Perturabo but other then Dorn who of his brothers did he really have a conflict with ?

From Angel Exterminatus Perturabo while brilliant is stubborn aloof and hard to befriend but not exactly a pariah.

Guilliman Ferrus and Vulkan had no issues with him

Magnus was his friend.

The lion had no personal beef with him

There where no issues between Perturabo and Fulgrim before the heresy.

He was taken for granted by his brothers thats not the same as them gaking on everything that he did.

I think some people are confusing "reasons" for "Justification."
Almost all of the Primarchs had reasons to rebel.
The question is really, are they justified? For the most part: not at all.

In my opinion (and this morality may be subjective) only Angron and Magnus are justified. The rest let their pride and vanity draw them in to betray what they served in order to get what they wanted.

Peturbo did not get his credit, when your brothers are heaped in glory, others famed its gonna hurt ewhen your the forgotten guy despite taking in some of most brutal battles, seige warfare is not glamorous.

Not reason. To go full traitor but gives a niche for chaos/horous to exploit

The art of war calls it the lowest form of warfare.