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 Vash108 wrote:
On top of what has been said I would love new sculpts.

I like the current ones, what we realy need is a better havoc kit

 Blackskull wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
On top of what has been said I would love new sculpts.

I like the current ones, what we realy need is a better havoc kit

Both, arguably.

 Blackskull wrote:
We call this rule stubborn, and I agree with its inclusion.

However csm are not immune to fear for in the fluff they fight only for themselves, loyalists have total trust in their corpse god hence fear nothing and fight as one, a chaos marine in a chaos warband is out for himself, he does not fight as one but as many individuals. This is true for all of them, kinda like humans really probably why I relate to them easier.

Fighting for ones self has nothing to do with being immune to Fear. These guys are in a place which is basically fearfest 24/7, if they didn't have immunity to Fear it wouldn't make sense for them to have their background state they basically spend most of their time in the anarchy that is the Warp. If an Loyalist Astartes is immune to Fear due to their faith in the Emperor, it would make sense for Chaos Astartes to be immune to Fear just for having to deal with the absolute horror they face every waking moment of every day they spend within the confines of the Warp, it would definitely be enough to deaden ones sense of fear.

To say that Loyalist Marines are immune to Fear because of their faith and CSM aren't immune to Fear even though they have to deal with horrific things on a regular basis just doesn't make sense to me. Faith can overcome fear but having to face fear on a regular basis doesn't overcome fear? To me, the part about automatically regrouping if your squad size is still over a certain size fits far better with the "in it for themselves" type of mentality. Once a squad diminishes enough its no longer about fighting for a common cause, its every man for himself at that point.

11 per MEQ with an extra attack each?

Sure, as long as all the other rank and file marines also get the extra attack!

If they didn't, the chaos marines would be at an immense advantage. 10 "tactical" chaos would wipe the floor with 10 tactical loyalists, and the loyalists cost more.

Also if I'm reading that right, you want the squad to be fearless until the character dies, and then they go to Ld10 for the rest of the game?

I think maybe you should scale back a little sir.

Do they really need changes? They are troop units and they are my favourite choice when it comes to CSM. I don't expect them to take down tanks or elites, I expect them to hold objectives, shoot at stuff that makes the mistake of being out in the open and to perhaps rip through some guardsmen in melee. If your Chaos Marines die they probably should have been in cover or away from what killed them... why the hate on regular Chaos marines guys?

Thunking they need buffs =/= hate

Wait, what I got from the OP is that IG Veterans, one of the best troops choices in the game have:

1) -1 WS, -1S, -1T, -1 I, -1 A, -1 LD, and -2 Sv on their statline

2) -1 S, -2 AP on their weapon

3) Worse special weapon/man ratio

4) Higher minimum squad size

and they only cost 5ppm less?

Or even worse, Militarum Tempestus Scions:
1) -1 WS, -1S, -1T, -1 I, -1 A, -1 LD, and -1 Sv on their statline

2) -1 S (but +2 AP) on their weapon

3) Worse special weapon/man ratio

and they cost 1ppm MORE? WHAT?

I'd argue the OP's changes are excessive but MEQ could certainly use changes.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They were 5 PPM in the old BT Codex and people still didn't take them, because they're short-ranged and unreliable.

"Everyone else pays this much!" isn't much of an argument when everyone's already overpaying.

Well I think changing PP to 5 or 10 points game wide might be a useful thread on this forum, but I dont think that Chaos Space Marine troops should get a 10 point discount, while Khorne bezerkers still pay 15.


If there is a gamewide price for an item, unless there is a reason for a certain unit to get a discount then separate the ideas.

 ZultanQ wrote:
It's no secret: no matter how you slice it, Chaos Space Marine units suck. This gives me a sad. I hate paying the lord tax for cult troops even if lords are good. I want to use interesting HQs without having to take crappy troops or cultists. So here we go.

I largely agree with the direction you are taking csm but not so much the degree. It is easier to create balance with small incremental changes than large ones. Also small changes to troops tend to have a large effect due to the fact that you are required to take them and often want more to score.

UNIT: Chaos Space Marines 55 Points
May add up to fifteen Chaos Space Marines - 11 pts/model

I really think this is too cheap. Its probably appropriate for their current ability but given that we are talking about simulaneously buffing them its probably too cheap. I would add back in the 10 pt champion tax as he's going to be adding some special rules and thats worth it. Maybe reduce the price per model to 12 instead of 11, but honestly after a buff they would probably be worth 13.

4 Chaos Space Marines WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD8
1 Aspiring Champion WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W1 I4 A3 LD9
Wargear: Power Armor, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon (Champion only), Frag and Krak Grenades

Special Rules: Consuming Ego (Champion Only), Opportunist's Resolve
• Consuming Ego - If the Aspiring Champion does not accept an issued challenge and no other model in his unit is eligible to accept the challenge, the unit loses the Opportunist's Resolve special rule until your next player turn.
• Opportunist's Resolve - As long as the Aspiring Champion is alive, the unit is Fearless. When the Aspiring Champion dies, all Chaos Space Marines in the unit gain +2 LD for the rest of the game.

Chaos Space Marines should not have 2 attacks.

 marrowick wrote:
Chaos Space Marines should not have 2 attacks.

Chaos Space Marines should have 2 attacks.

See how much that adds to the discussion?

My own thoughts on this, from playing CSMs from 2nd through 6th edition...

Your points are too cheap. Options are a bit wonky too, honestly. I'd say maybe 13 points each, same statline as they are now. VotLW at +1 makes them same points as Marines, and yeah there's no ATSKNF, but they're also better Ld. Options are fine as the current book goes. No need for two heavy weapons, but I love being able to opt for two special weapons instead (wish I could still do it with normal SMs, but haven't been able to since 4th). Adding plasma pistols to the options in place of the special/heavy weapons (i.e. you can take either/or, but not two PP and two SW/HW) would be good for close combat squads.

And seriously, no "Fearless as long as the champion is alive." He's Ld 9, Ld 10 if you give them VotLW. Good enough.

Legion tactics being another form of chapter tactics seems a bit meh. Just too much like the Imperial Marines. I did like the old legion rules in the 3.5 codex, but that would apply to the entire army.

One option would be to allow them to buy veteran abilities (special rules like Tank Hunters, Counter Attack, etc.) for certain points values, but only if they have VotLW. This helps represent their learning over the millennia of fighting, and would let you tailor a list.

So yeah, not much of a huge change from what they are now. But given that I've had some good success running around ten guys with two meltaguns or plasma guns in a Rhino grabbing objectives and wrecking stuff while people are focused on the "scarier" things like Helbrute, Defiler, Havocs, etc., I don't see that much to fix.