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So for mechanized guard is it better to take the chimera or the taurox?

I know for scions the prime is just a steal but for AM and using standard infantry squads or vet squads is the taurox better than the chimera?

Chimera. Better armor, better firepower and I believe better transport capacity.

Yeah, and it's amphibious to boot.

Rhinos are really, really crappy (which is why they only cost like 30 points in marine codices). Wave serpents are really, really not. The taurox is in the same league as rhinos for durability, while the chimera is in the wave serpent league (not as good because it doesn't have the shield, but still).

The taurox is cheaper, granted, but the point of a transport is to transport, and tauroxes just don't do that as well, what due to being killed faster.

Taurox primes are fast, so maybe there's something there, but regular tauroxes are just cheap, nothing more. Better effective than inexpensive in my book.

Hello!

If I had to say, straight up, which one was better, I would say the Chimera. It allows for more firepower, it is basically a shield for your officers, and has great firepower. The main reason, however, is AV 12, which is, from the perspective of a Space Marine player, awesome! The only reason why Tauroxes may be taken is because it is cheaper (you may think that the Autocannon is great but the Chimera can spam S6 and S5 shots, which almost always beats the Taurox's firepower. So, my advice would be to write a mechanised list using Chimeras and reach your points total. Then, gather an estimate of how much cheaper your army would be if all the transports were Tauroxes, and try fitting a unit in from the spare points. Then, you will have 2 lists - one has guardsmen with chimeras and the other has guardsmen with tauroxes and a spare unit. It is then up to you to weigh up the pros and cons and choose.

I, personally, would go for Chimeras, however my Guard list would have some mechanised and some "blobby" aspects, so the overall points difference between having chimeras and tauroxes will be quite low.

The idea is just that if you have a list with multiple Chimeras, there will be a larger gap between the overall points cost of the chimeras and hypothetical tauroxes, while if you only have 1 or 2 chimeras, you will not get as many points back if you swap them with chimeras.

I know that I'm very vague so I do not blame you if you don't understand.

Go Chimeras!
Heirophant

Chimera.

I think a taurox is closer to a razorback than a rhino. When you do that comparison a taurox is better.

I think a taurox is good for getting a twinlinked autocannon into the list.

I think a range of av values will be good.

Putting command squads in chimeras. Veterans in Taurox and then Lots of leman russ and chimera hulls.

If they want to go after the taurox with anything good against it they are ignoring the rest of your units. I dont have any experience with the new book yet, but I feel that a mix is the way to go.

However that being said, I would say if you already have chimeras stick with chimeras.

(I also like the taurox model so...)

It runs into the same problem every transport has. If there is not AV saturation on the table they will die pretty quickly.

Important to note, the Taurox has four fire points for special weapons. It could be a good light vehicle hunter.

 TheSilo wrote:
Important to note, the Taurox has four fire points for special weapons. It could be a good light vehicle hunter.

As a pointed in the army list thread you said this; how are you using those fire points when two of them are opposite eachother and you can't split fire.

Its really effectively the same thing as the Chimera's two points out the top hatch.

They can both fire forward or backwards.

Well, they really serve different roles. The chimera is an infantry fighting vehicle, able to sit back with its heavy guns or move around to support different positions. The Taurox does something different, it is made to get squads in to position, doing little else. The cheapness, combined with the terrain reroll, makes them better than a chimera at getting your men around. It doesn't matter if it dies, you have already gained some speed from it. The extra doors also give you several inches extra reach when disembarking, making it superior for jumping out with meltas and getting within 6".

If you want to fight from the vehicle, or sit back as a pillbox, then the Chimera is superior. However, if you want to occupy terrain in the middle of the board, or move on from reserves and disembark, then the Taurox is superior. I can see a CCS chimera working well with veteran Taurox, as the vets can jump out and receive orders.

 TheSilo wrote:
They can both fire forward or backwards.

Sure, but seeing as they're on the side of the hull, their overlapping arcs of fire are practically nill.

So while in theory you could potentially shoot four guns out of it, the number of scenarios where you could line it up in such a way against a target large enough to be target-able by both sides rapidly becomes a non-issue.

In practice, two will likely be the best you'll get.

Leth wrote:I think a taurox is closer to a razorback than a rhino. When you do that comparison a taurox is better.

It feels like they're... trying to do this, sort of. Especially with the prime. But in any case, they're sort of failing.

In a razorback, you can take a twin-linked lascannon, and fire another lascannon from the squad inside in a 360 degree arc. In a taurox, you can fire a lascannon, but just out one side (which is bad when you have crummy side armor), and that mighty twin-linked lascannon becomes a sad twin-linked autocannon. Upgrade to prime and you get a missile launcher, or... ugh... a small blast autocannon.

The taurox prime with the gatling gun almost gets into razorback territory, but it becomes so expensive that you're wandering dangerously close to russ territory. Or, if you want to keep the fast vehicle analogy, hellhounds.

For the price of a squad of vets in a taurox prime with a missile launcher, I'm only 15 points away from a squad of vets with a chimera, and a missile launcher scout sentinel.

Razorback has zero fire points.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So for mechanized guard is it better to take the chimera or the taurox?

I know for scions the prime is just a steal but for AM and using standard infantry squads or vet squads is the taurox better than the chimera?

Eh I would prefer the Taurox if it wasn't ugly as sin and I didn't already have 19ish chimeras. A twin-linked autocannon is fairly reliable and fits well if you field autocannons and either plasma guns or grenade launchers as it has a twin-linked autocannon and the same AP as a grenade launcher and same strength as a plasma gun. Plus the chimera losing its firing points is a pretty bad nerf, while the taurox has side as well as rear access points, which allows for greater versatility when exiting a vehicle to either exit facing the enemy or exit with the vehicle shielding your unit from return fire.

Honestly I think it would depend what you are looking for. With my mechanized platoons I might run some converted chimeras as count as tauroxes as I would like the added ability to engage light vehicles (and particularly flyers because it is twin-linked, meaning it gets 0.444 hits against flyers vs. a chimera ML getting 0.5 hits) and because it is a good bit cheaper. For more expensive units such as vets or scions I would prefer the chimera since losing them is a pretty big hit, but killing the transport for an infantry squad? I have like 5 more where that came from. Although I would probably use them as reserve units or behind LOS blocking terrain so they don't die first turn.

The prime is an interesting vehicle, I kind of like the idea of using them as pocket Russes although it seems risky it might be a fun idea.

Chimera

Trickstick has about the gist of it IMO. I've only used the vanilla taurox as a drive and drop for vets/auger array delivery system. If (and I do mean IF) it survives it can provide supplemental firepower, but dont expect it to last. The prime is just too expensive for me, so much so that I didnt even bother magnetizing the parts for it. (I might regret that later)
The chimera is your go to transport for durability, by no means is it and land raider so you still have to utilize cover but it serves fairly well as our "mobile bunker" and while it got more expensive we cand still fill the field with them.

I think for Vet spam the taurox is better because of having more firing ports for special weapons and a more reliable offensive presence. Also being able to re-roll immobilization is nice.

Obviously your command squads need the chimera for being able to give orders out of

Heirophant101 wrote:
Hello!

If I had to say, straight up, which one was better, I would say the Chimera. It allows for more firepower, it is basically a shield for your officers, and has great firepower. The main reason, however, is AV 12, which is, from the perspective of a Space Marine player, awesome! The only reason why Tauroxes may be taken is because it is cheaper (you may think that the Autocannon is great but the Chimera can spam S6 and S5 shots, which almost always beats the Taurox's firepower. So, my advice would be to write a mechanised list using Chimeras and reach your points total. Then, gather an estimate of how much cheaper your army would be if all the transports were Tauroxes, and try fitting a unit in from the spare points. Then, you will have 2 lists - one has guardsmen with chimeras and the other has guardsmen with tauroxes and a spare unit. It is then up to you to weigh up the pros and cons and choose.

I, personally, would go for Chimeras, however my Guard list would have some mechanised and some "blobby" aspects, so the overall points difference between having chimeras and tauroxes will be quite low.

The idea is just that if you have a list with multiple Chimeras, there will be a larger gap between the overall points cost of the chimeras and hypothetical tauroxes, while if you only have 1 or 2 chimeras, you will not get as many points back if you swap them with chimeras.

I know that I'm very vague so I do not blame you if you don't understand.

Go Chimeras!
Heirophant

This is a great idea. But I'll always be going with the classic chimera. Its stronger and has better weapons imo. I like the auto cannons but for me its the more shots the merrier. My vote, chimera.

Buttons wrote:Eh I would prefer the Taurox if it wasn't ugly as sin and I didn't already have 19ish chimeras.

Heh, yeah, and this.

People claim in dead seriousness that GW only writes rules for the purpose of generating sales. If this was true then they must be doing something DOUBLE-CONSPIRACY if it involves giving me access to a new unit that's worse than the one I already have all the models for.

I'm considering using Tauroxes (Tauroxi?) for my suicide flamer platoon command squads. There's a few reasons for this, so hear me out.
My standard tactic in 5th was to take those otherwise useless mandatory PCS's and load them out with 4 flamers, stick them in chimeras, and rush towards the enemy, or hide out of LOS to counterattack enemy units that got too close to my lines. Generally, this involved rushing forward 12", flipping the chimera ass frontways, and disembarking the PCS doomsquad out another 3" to buninate things. Then both they, and the backwards chimera would die a martyrs death.
I found that moving the chimera's only 6" so the PCS could fire from the hatch defeated the entire point of the fast-response element, and was often too difficult to get them in good position for templates. Then theyd die anyways, because no one wants that fireball sitting in front of them.

So, the Taurox I think actually makes a better fit for this role, at least how I was employing it:
-It's obviously cheaper, which is good for a suicide unit.
-It's smaller (considerably), and easier to hide for counter-attacking.
-It has side doors, which means you dont have to spin it around to disembark. This actually makes it MORE durable than the chimera, because you can keep the AV11 front facing the enemy.
-It has 4 fireports. Even though theyre on the sides, on the off chance the thing can tank-shock into a big enemy formation, all the flamers can still be used.
-It comes with a free dozer blade! Awesome for something you need to drive around a lot.


-With big combined squads, I'm not really jonesing for orders, so the command vehicle loss isnt really a loss. The PCSs are really just there to burn things.
-The armor seems like less of a big deal. Chimeras have AV10 sides too, and mine get whacked a lot from the flanks anyways.
-The twin linked AC seems much better than a BS3 multilaser, given my past experience with those things.

 McGibs wrote:
-It has 4 fireports. Even though theyre on the sides, on the off chance the thing can tank-shock into a big enemy formation, all the flamers can still be used.

It isn't a tank, so can't tank shock.

Ohhhhh..... ouch.

As if I needed another reason...

I dont like shelling out points for transports. A Chimera with dozerblade costs 70 points now, while a Taurox costs 50. That's a 20 point difference, very much like that between a Razorback and a Rhino.

The Razorback and Chimera suffer from the same syndrome almost every transport (except skimmers as they get jink and usually have upgrades to improve it) suffers: increased vulnerability by being tempting to use as a battle tank.

You see, the main point of transports is to get a key unit of yours from A to B as quickly as possible, rather than having them footslog there for half the game. So the less points a transport costs, the better. Transports with big guns tempt you into moving 6" and firing the main gun, which however makes your troop movement as slow as if they were on foot.

So a Chimera moving 6" and firing that HB isnt a particularly good chimera who is supposed to be deploying your Melta Vets to where they should actually be right now. And it has to completely sit still to even be able to fire both its main weapons at full BS.

A Taurox on the other hand, can move 12", and then either another 6" without worrying about having lost its chance to shoot all those amazing guns (which it doesnt have).

And last but not least, Chimeras die just as easily as a Taurox does if they get hit on the left side, right side, or rear.

The only time a Chimera is worth its points is if you make it sit behind an ADL and use it as a dakka tank, or if you are transporting a 10 man squad and an IC, or if you give it dual Heavy Flamers and zoom it toward the enemy and hopefully fry as much as possible after your squad disembarks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
The extra doors also give you several inches extra reach when disembarking, making it superior for jumping out with meltas and getting within 6".

Also, never underestimate this.

That being said, if I were a game designer I would have made the Taurox 40 points, given that it isnt a Tank (and thus can't tank shock) and it also isn't a command vehicle.

Sir Arun wrote:the main point of transports is to get a key unit of yours from A to B as quickly as possible, So the less points a transport costs, the better.

Yes, that's the main point of a transport, but it's not the only point. Transports can be transports and other things as well. Cf. Falcons and land raiders. As such, it's not always better to spend fewer points if, for a good value amount of extra points it can also do other things as well.

Also, "cheapest is best" is only true across comparable quality. I mean, let's say that there was a new addition to the guard codex that only cost 10 points, but was 2 HP of AV9, would that be better because it's even cheaper? No, because the extreme flimsiness of the vehicle makes it worse at its job of transporting troops. Land raiders are very expensive, but they are also VERY reliable for getting stuff from point A to B.

Both of these come together in a chimera. A chimera is more expensive, but it's also more likely to do its job of transporting troops, what with being less likely to explode into a flaming wreck before they get there. On the other hand, they're also better equipped for still having something to do when they get there, rather than being stuck as an autocannon tank in melta range.

I think that neither one is 100% choice over the other. I think that the fact that people cant decide really speaks to how close the choice and preferences are.

Mainly I want to comment on the fact that those taurox that are painted, look awesome.

 Sir Arun wrote:

This is the first Taurox image that didn't make me gag. Do you have a source/tutorial for it?

Shadow Reiver wrote:
[

Spoiler:

quote=Sir Arun 590529 6743954 c5535801798c537399cc37ccd43c04c0.jpg]

 Sir Arun wrote:
I dont like shelling out points for transports. A Chimera with dozerblade costs 70 points now, while a Taurox costs 50. That's a 20 point difference, very much like that between a Razorback and a Rhino.

The Razorback and Chimera suffer from the same syndrome almost every transport (except skimmers as they get jink and usually have upgrades to improve it) suffers: increased vulnerability by being tempting to use as a battle tank.

You see, the main point of transports is to get a key unit of yours from A to B as quickly as possible, rather than having them footslog there for half the game. So the less points a transport costs, the better. Transports with big guns tempt you into moving 6" and firing the main gun, which however makes your troop movement as slow as if they were on foot.

So a Chimera moving 6" and firing that HB isnt a particularly good chimera who is supposed to be deploying your Melta Vets to where they should actually be right now. And it has to completely sit still to even be able to fire both its main weapons at full BS.

A Taurox on the other hand, can move 12", and then either another 6" without worrying about having lost its chance to shoot all those amazing guns (which it doesnt have).

And last but not least, Chimeras die just as easily as a Taurox does if they get hit on the left side, right side, or rear.

The only time a Chimera is worth its points is if you make it sit behind an ADL and use it as a dakka tank, or if you are transporting a 10 man squad and an IC, or if you give it dual Heavy Flamers and zoom it toward the enemy and hopefully fry as much as possible after your squad disembarks.

thing is the Taurox, at elast the basic model that the guardsmen can have, is not fast, so you're still stuck driving 6 inches to fire those guns at full BS, or go 12 inches and fire snap shots.

Also, those inside can't go out if you move more than 6 inches.

Taurox prime on the other hand is Fast, so you either got to do a gimmic to have your vets get in, or rely on your storm troopers to deliver those meltas.

As far as a command vehicle, or a vehicle expected to take a fair amount of fire, I think the chimera is the hands down winner. WHen the enemy is advancing towards it, it can put out 3 S6 AP6 & 3 S5 AP4 shots a turn. If you are looking for a relatively cheap vehicle to gunline for 48" fire....that is where I think the tauroxes shine.

Sure, they'lll be "First Blood Bait", but any given Dev Squad or other ranged unit will be in effect wasting their turn shooting to take out a 50 point vehicle. And with the autocannon at 48", you can keep your tauroxs moving to keep them out of range of any Multilasers or Heavy Bolters that try to glance you to death. Anything that should be able to hit the Taurox shouldn't be prioritizing the taurox as a target anyways.

I still need to playtest this list (new codex, tonnnnnns of playtesting to do), but one of my prospective lists spams armored sentinels and tauroxes for massed 48" range shots on a crapton of vehicles (using the quantity is its own durability addage).

An infantry platoon can have up to 6 tauroxes @ 300 points for 6 twinlinked-autocannons on AV 11, then 9 armored sentinels at 405 to 450 pts (1st for ML, 2nd for Lascannon). Thats 15 vehicles at 705-750 points. Throw in the points for your mandatory troops, mandatory AA and flesh out with russes/manticores, and you have some ridiculous ranged firepower on more platforms than many armies can quickly deal with.

Another classic way is to run the thought experiment of upgrading one to the other.

Let's say that you started with a taurox. How many points would you pay to add a hull heavy flamer? How many points would you spend for an upgrade that increased its front armor to AV12? How much for the ability to tank shock, and use orders, and for free lasgun shots? How much for amphibious? How much to have a pair of fire ports that can also attack things in front or behind the tank?

Of course, you then counteract with the slightly better turret and the extra hatches, but is the end result 20 points or more? Because if it is, then the chimera is still the better value, regardless of the up-front cost of the chimera.