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Hey guys dumb question...

Im squaring off soon against a buddy who runs Tau and recently got himself one of these badboys - Im trying to see whether there is a way of countering this from a similar cost / survivability point of view.

No idea how to really deal with Riptides as a CSM player so was wondering when you compare the cost of 3 x Oblits with MoN and VoTLW they come in at 237pts, which is probably in the same region as a kitted out Riptide (not sure). So this gives me 2+ 5++ 6W T5 with the ability to pump out a fair amount of shots per turn.

Is it a fair comparison points-wise and looking at it's survivability or am I totally off the mark? I realise the Oblits lack interceptor and the ability to gain 3++, but I want to do this from a pragmatic point of view as Im not sure what else to invest in. I could go the Be'Lakor/Puppetmaster route but thats 350pts and you have to get really close to even stand a chance. Tau also dont give a rats ass about cover and Be'Lakor is pretty dependent on it.

Thanks.

To be honest, they don't match the riptide.

Ok so does chaos have any viable way of dealing with them?

To be honest, not really. Chaos lose out to Tau pretty heavily. :(

In a final destination battlefield with each other? Oblits would cause less than a wound a turn with lascannons/meltas, or a little over 1 a turn if they were close enough to rapid fire plasma, assuming a FNP tide.

The tide, however, has a good chance of offing an oblit model every turn, lowering the chaos return fire for subsequent rounds. If the tide went first, it wouldn't be surprising for it to shoot down the oblit unit and come out with just a wound on itself.

I can't think of any unit in the game that can match a riptide in overall performance and durability without going way over its point cost. An ion tide with smart missiles and EWO is about as tough as an imperial knight, can jump-shoot-jump, has mega range, can hurt any armor value, can protect itself from deepstrikes/flyers, can hurt cover-save fanatic units, can hurt units out of LOS, and is surprisingly good in melee, considering how crappy weapon skill DOESN'T ACTUALLY MAKE YOU VERY BAD AT MELEE, and it gets all the MC melee goodness.

niv-mizzet wrote:
In a final destination battlefield with each other? Oblits would cause less than a wound a turn with lascannons/meltas, or a little over 1 a turn if they were close enough to rapid fire plasma, assuming a FNP tide.

The tide, however, has a good chance of offing an oblit model every turn, lowering the chaos return fire for subsequent rounds. If the tide went first, it wouldn't be surprising for it to shoot down the oblit unit and come out with just a wound on itself.

I can't think of any unit in the game that can match a riptide in overall performance and durability without going way over its point cost. An ion tide with smart missiles and EWO is about as tough as an imperial knight, can jump-shoot-jump, has mega range, can hurt any armor value, can protect itself from deepstrikes/flyers, can hurt cover-save fanatic units, can hurt units out of LOS, and is surprisingly good in melee, considering how crappy weapon skill DOESN'T ACTUALLY MAKE YOU VERY BAD AT MELEE, and it gets all the MC melee goodness.

Hmm I get what you're saying and it's damn depressing. I guess I will just have to man-up and hope I can prolong the inevitable tabling coming my way...sucks

If it is just one Riptide, ignore it.

You don't need to deal with it, as the shot it fires off is nasty, but hardly anything that one alone will table you with.

The easy answer is to hunt the markerlights. All of his list will suffer if you can take out the MLs. The Riptide is only BS3. so it kinda needs Markerlights to be effective. Unless he's bringing multiples or you're playing 1000 points or less, you should be able to ignore it. Play the objectives - and hope you don't roll VPs.

Focus on killing his troops. You can still win an objective game if you focus on the rest of the army.

Allied Armored Battlegroup with a Vanquisher command tank with Beast Hunter shells.

The Riptide will be hard pressed to deal with it, and if even a single wound slips though from the Vanquisher's AP2 main gun, the riptide dies a horrible Instant Death.

Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

hobojebus wrote:
Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

Or you could shoot it with a beast hunter shell from a Command Vanquisher.

Geeze, it's like I didn't even post or something.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

Or you could shoot it with a beast hunter shell from a Command Vanquisher.

Geeze, it's like I didn't even post or something.

He's a chaos player he does not have those, and as a chaos player his best bet is to ignore it and kill the pathfinders, so once dead even when other squads add their overwatch they are on 6's instead of being on 4's making assault possible.

hobojebus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

Or you could shoot it with a beast hunter shell from a Command Vanquisher.

Geeze, it's like I didn't even post or something.

He's a chaos player he does not have those, and as a chaos player his best bet is to ignore it and kill the pathfinders, so once dead even when other squads add their overwatch they are on 6's instead of being on 4's making assault possible.

Allies mean he does have those, and to get one only costs 285 points in allies. If he pays 330, he can get a second Leman Russ a the troops choice as well, so his allied detachment is literally the Command Vanquisher and a single Leman Russ.

Hardly a bad deal, and it definitely should not be dismissed without consideration.

Riptides are only Initiative 2, so they are terribly vulnerable to Blind. Unfortunately, even a blind riptide is quite nasty with an Ion Accelerator as they still have a good chance of hitting something. Still, the Slaanesh primaris power should be good for slowing them down until you can take them out.

Outshooting them is going to be tricky, but you can't just rely on any old unit to handle them in an assault either. You either need something that can kill them in one turn (almost impossible) or survive a smash attack long enough to bring them down.

A daemon prince with a toughness buff could do the job easily enough, but there's no reliable way to get one. Best you can do is two rolls on biomancy and one on the chaos boon table. Multiple DPs or one with the Black Mace might be able to kill a riptide before it gets a chance to strike back, but that's a huge points-sink.

A character in a unit might have a better time. A sorcerer with the MoN on a bike armed with a force axe would probably be the optimal build; can't be ID'd by smash attacks and can take out the RT with one hit. Other marks or joining with a jump pack unit are also viable, since you should be able to absorb any damage with your unit. A lord with a power fist might be able to do the job too, but it will take longer and cost more casualties.

Would just like to remind peeps that models in Battlesuits (Riptides included) are immune to Blind.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

Or you could shoot it with a beast hunter shell from a Command Vanquisher.

Geeze, it's like I didn't even post or something.

He's a chaos player he does not have those, and as a chaos player his best bet is to ignore it and kill the pathfinders, so once dead even when other squads add their overwatch they are on 6's instead of being on 4's making assault possible.

Allies mean he does have those, and to get one only costs 285 points in allies. If he pays 330, he can get a second Leman Russ a the troops choice as well, so his allied detachment is literally the Command Vanquisher and a single Leman Russ.

Hardly a bad deal, and it definitely should not be dismissed without consideration.

Your right it shouldn't be dismissed without consideration, but there are some consideration.

1) If OP does not want to use allies, I know as crazy as it sounds some players prefer to use just the army they have chosen.

2) If OP doesn't have the models

Even then no one was dismissing your contribution, because it can work. And I'm sure based on how adamant you are about it that it has worked many times for you, but I think most people are discussing a way for the CSM codex to be able to handle the riptide.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Only easy way to kill a riptide is SW runepriest using jotww,

other wise all you can do is throw lots of fire power at it so its easier to ignore it and kill path finder teams.

Or you could shoot it with a beast hunter shell from a Command Vanquisher.

Geeze, it's like I didn't even post or something.

He's a chaos player he does not have those, and as a chaos player his best bet is to ignore it and kill the pathfinders, so once dead even when other squads add their overwatch they are on 6's instead of being on 4's making assault possible.

Allies mean he does have those, and to get one only costs 285 points in allies. If he pays 330, he can get a second Leman Russ a the troops choice as well, so his allied detachment is literally the Command Vanquisher and a single Leman Russ.

Hardly a bad deal, and it definitely should not be dismissed without consideration.

Your right it shouldn't be dismissed without consideration, but there are some consideration.

1) If OP does not want to use allies, I know as crazy as it sounds some players prefer to use just the army they have chosen.

2) If OP doesn't have the models

Even then no one was dismissing your contribution, because it can work. And I'm sure based on how adamant you are about it that it has worked many times for you, but I think most people are discussing a way for the CSM codex to be able to handle the riptide.

Exactly...if I were to use IG allies I wouldnt have made the thread. I do however plan on perhaps using daemon allies in the future. Fully Nurgle so planned on getting a GUO. Hes slow but perhaps deepstriking him close and hope he survives the interceptor?

How about Be'Lakor? He is a little more expensive then a tooled up Riptide (350 compared to 280 something) but comes with all sorts of goodies. Important ones being access to ALL of telepathy ( the entire discipline seems to be made to counter Tau ), Eternal Warrior, Shrouded, Mastery Level 3(?), Access to more Warp Charges if people run away near him, A beastly Daemon Prince stat line with a Fleshbane Sword and the fact he is a FMC are all big pluses.

He may be taken by any Chaos Army and can be represented by any Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon model the OP might own. Seem's like a very good idea to me.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
How about Be'Lakor? He is a little more expensive then a tooled up Riptide (350 compared to 280 something) but comes with all sorts of goodies. Important ones being access to ALL of telepathy ( the entire discipline seems to be made to counter Tau ), Eternal Warrior, Shrouded, Mastery Level 3(?), Access to more Warp Charges if people run away near him, A beastly Daemon Prince stat line with a Fleshbane Sword and the fact he is a FMC are all big pluses.

He may be taken by any Chaos Army and can be represented by any Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon model the OP might own. Seem's like a very good idea to me.

Yeah I definitely considered him, I should probably give him a go and see how it goes. Still even getting within 24" of the Riptide seems nigh impossible. It would have been fine if Be'lakor could still reliably get his cover save, but he cant.

As mentioned earlier, would a GUO do a good job? Perhaps Be'Lakor as the CSM warlord with GUO and some troops as allies. Drop the GUO (hope his T7 and 6W) is enough to spook the riptide and take some heat off of Be'Lakor..

Belly would work great for puppet mastering the riptide and blowing up his own army. I have had some success with a black legion nurgle lord on bike with the hand of darkness leading nurgle spawn as a great way to punch out really any MC (took out 3 dreadknights two games in a row last night in some 1k point games if that helps any). Other than ignore it and baleflamer his troops/ML units to death there isn't much to do against it. A bunch of plasma plague marines might do something but dont hope for much, could probably tie it up in CC for most of the game with a squad of them (if they can get there)

There's always the good ol' Heldrake. There's practically nothing the Feathered Fiend can't blast apart with Autocannon fire/burn to a crisp/tear to shreds with iron claws.

Forgefiends and Defilers would probably be good choices for gunning the thing down. Same with Predators, which are cheap and versatile enough that they'll be useful for more than just 'Tide hunting.

Everything, unless you meant a Las Pred or a Plasmafiend, you mentioned does not have the AP 2 necessary to combat a riptide effectively. The Heldrake is good at so many things, multi-wound T 6 2+ save Mecha Suits are sadly not one of them.

As for the GUO i agree he would be mighty scary to drop in a Tau gunline, especially with Iron Arm, he might have trouble doing more then scaring the Riptide off. If the Riptide wants it can be very tricky to grab hold of and Charge due to jump jets, so in that case a Lord of Change would probably work better to try kill the thing. But i agree with you that a GUO would work wonderfully to attract a hell'a lot of attention. More then enough to allow Be'Lakor to get amougst it all. I would suggest piling the greater rewards on him (the ones that usually make you more survivable) and that you avoid the Bale Sword, as while it looks great to use against the Riptide IF you catch it you are likely to simply cause a wound or 2, he fails LD and you sweeping advance him (not fearless) making it rather irrelevant.

Good Luck.

Heldrake can get stuff done assuming the riptide is the (pretty much universal) ion+ewo+stims riptide. If it is the (less common) heavy burst cannon+ewo+skyfire riptide you might have yourself a ballgame all unexpected like. I don't think you'd see that configuration though. If I was going up against CSM I would take the ion for sure (about the only time I haven't taken the ion in recent memory is against tyranids).

Anyway then you just have to watch out for all the standard Tau skyfire ridiculousness. Broadsides or a sky ray would really make that heldrake sweat.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Everything, unless you meant a Las Pred or a Plasmafiend, you mentioned does not have the AP 2 necessary to combat a riptide effectively. The Heldrake is good at so many things, multi-wound T 6 2+ save Mecha Suits are sadly not one of them.

You'll have to excuse me, as I've never even played a game with CSM and am mostly going off of studying the codex for hours out of boredom.

Yeah, I was thinking the Preds should have Lascannon turrets or sponsons (probably sponsons). Plasma on the fiends, maybe, although I would have though that 2 Autocannon Forgefiends would be able to shred a lone Riptide under sheer weight of firepower. And, of course, they could have Hades arms and Ectoplasma Cannon heads, for the best of both worlds. Defilers were once again a bit of a "weight of fire" solution (I must admit that I love Defilers, and from what I can see they're very versatile mechanical killing machines, and every MEQ's worst nightmare). Of course, if they get into CC (which is unlikely, but possible with support) then they'd tear the Riptide to pieces. As for the Heldrake, I suppose it doesn't really have a lot going for it against Riptides (unless it has AP2 Vector Strikes).

Vindicators would be a good option (Vindicator + Extra Armour + Daemonic Possession = pants-gaking terror on treads) but are sadly short ranged. Land Raiders of course have 2 TL Lascannon sponsons, but they're really meant more as assault transports than main battle tanks.

Of course, you can still take IG/AM as allies, so I'm sure you could rustle up some nifty anti-armour from that book (Vanquisher, Executioner, etc...). Or alternatively you could just take a MOTHERFETHING MANTICORE for gaks and giggles (it may not be hugely competitive, but raining down D3 S9 pie-plates is always fun, assuming they still work like that).

Look at two maulerfiends. For about the same cost you have two units that can rip it apart in HTH. AV12 will remove a lot of issues with overwatch from basic troops.

They have the speed and power to take one down. Also you might get lucky and he will keep using the 3D6 reactor move too keep away rather than using it to pump up the attack weapon and maybe even take a few wounds off.

I think the best way to handle a Riptide is to force it to Nova charge every turn.
As mentioned, two maulerfiends will definately be a fast enough threat that the Riptide will either Nova for an anti-armor weapon or for the jet pack move. If he's at risk of getting hit with S8+ AP2 then you're going to have him Nova to get invul saves.

A Riptide on it's own isn't that scary, it's only when you have sufficient support that they are dangerous. Lets say you have a credible threat with two mauler fiends getting in close on a Riptide or near the Tau lines. If he uses an Ion Accelerator you're forcing him to consider nova charging and risking a wound for the Ordnance shot. Assuming he manages that you're making him consider the risk of rolling high scatter or even getting hot, so he's sucking up marker tokens away from other units.

Literally every game I've played against a single Riptide or using one it has under-performed. I've seen games where the owning player puts more wounds on it than the opponent.

Bloodthirster?

I don't know what you may have, but an allied demon ait too cheesey. No more cheesey than a riptide.

I have the same issue, chaos really lack cheap firepower. Im also struggling to find anything that can kill a knight.

Deep strike 2x 5 man termies and your 3 obliterators behind him if possible.

By turn 3 charge him