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 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Rigeld2 you ARE skipping step (b). Everything is about that step of the phase, and you continue to argue around that point for whatever reason. That step is the nail in the coffin. Killed=removed as a casualty. The fact that EL triggers at the END OF THE PHASE should shut your argument down. You are trying to argue a point that has been proven. It's like trying to argue whether the rain is wet or not. For you, the battle is over.

Amusing, but incorrect.
I'm not arguing that EL somehow skips step b. At all. It'd behove you to actually read the thread.
I'm stating - factually - that placing the EL counter is an attempt to rescue the unit using a special rule that does not otherwise specify that it can be used to rescue from SA.
I'm stating - factually - that rolling for the counter is in attempt to rescue the unit using a special rule that does not otherwise specify that it can be used to rescue from SA.

The fact that the latter happens at the end of the phase is irrelevant. SA has an ongoing effect ("at this stage") and should be considered for any attempt to rescue the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
But you are. I am not assuming anything. You are saying that the unit is "saved" and/or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance, when they are clearly 100% NOT saved or rescued. If they are, why are they taken off the board as casualties?

Because you're attempting to put them back on.

Yup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the SA.

All I did after the SA was lay down a EL marker. That doesn't save or rescue the unit from the SA at all.

If you are so concrete-footed about this issue, please explain how laying down a marker AFTER THE UNIT IS DESTROYED saves the unit from being destroyed. It doesn't make senese.

Because when the unit is placed back on the table you've rescued it from being destroyed. Meaning that placing the marker is an attempt to save the unit from being destroyed.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but you ignored it then as well.

No, no, no. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. I can't continue with this line of argument anymore, so its been fun, sir!

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
But you are. I am not assuming anything. You are saying that the unit is "saved" and/or "rescued" from the Sweeping Advance, when they are clearly 100% NOT saved or rescued. If they are, why are they taken off the board as casualties?

Because you're attempting to put them back on.

Yup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the SA.

All I did after the SA was lay down a EL marker. That doesn't save or rescue the unit from the SA at all.

If you are so concrete-footed about this issue, please explain how laying down a marker AFTER THE UNIT IS DESTROYED saves the unit from being destroyed. It doesn't make senese.

Because when the unit is placed back on the table you've rescued it from being destroyed. Meaning that placing the marker is an attempt to save the unit from being destroyed.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but you ignored it then as well.

No, no, no. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. I can't continue with this line of argument anymore, so its been fun, sir!

I'm not skipping that. At all. I've addressed that literally every time you accuse me of skipping it.

Perhaps you'd actually like to address my argument instead of accusing me of doing something I'm demonstrably not? That'd be great.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

As for the above comparison between the 5th ed and 6th ed, i see no difference, and as you agree 5th ed remove EL, then so does 6th ed.
5th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
6th: " unit is destroyed; removed immediately; no save or other special rule can rescue"
Spot the difference? If they wanted the "as a casualty" from 5th ed. Codex to work with the "as a casualty" from 6th ed. BrB, then they would have put it in the FaQ: "Ever-living counters can be placed after a sweeping advance" for example.

The phrase "at this stage" nullifies this argument. "At this stage" is a clear reference to the Sweeping Advance stage of the Assault Phase. Ever Living doesn't save anyone from a Sweeping Advance.

Wait, what?

Naw wrote:
Adding my final thoughts on this subject.
BRB 5th ed:
"The falling back unit is destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Going by RAW, in 5th edition SA does prevent EL. I suspect the intent to have been something else.

BRB 6th ed:
"..unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed." ... "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage.."

Both BRB say "at this stage", they are the exact same rules...

But they are not exactly the same rules, "..as casualties.." makes the difference.

I do not play Necrons, I play against them. I don't have anything to gain here.

Naw wrote:
But they are not exactly the same rules, "..as casualties.." makes the difference.

Per the FAQ, that isn't a difference.
IOW Removed from play and Removed from play as a casualty is the same thing.

I think what he is saying, is that because the Lord is, in fact, killed by the sweeping advance, you are not attempting to save him by using the EL roll to bring him back. He isn't saved. He is killed. Dead. Gone. Aidios. Goodbye. Checkmate. Shed loose the mortal coil. Therefore the SA resolves, and at the end of the phase, the EL roll is made.

Also, I have been reading the thread. It is honestly a good source of humor for me because you aren't really arguing anymore. You've been clearly beaten. So no need to be all bitter. You can't argue the FAQ. You certainly cannot argue the resolution step of the SA. So why exactly do you continue to argue?

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I think what he is saying, is that because the unit is, in fact, killed by the sweeping advance, you are not attempting to save them by using the EL roll to bring them back. They are never saved. They are killed. Dead. Gone. Aidios. Goodbye. Checkmate. Shed loose the mortal coil. Therefore the SA resolves, and at the end of the phase, the EL roll is made.

Also, I have been reading the thread. It is honestly a good source of humor for me because you aren't really arguing anymore. You've been clearly beaten. So no need to be all bitter. You can't argue the FAQ. You certainly cannot argue the resolution step of the SA. So why exactly do you continue to argue?

So your assertion is that the unit is never rescued?

The unit dies as they cannot take a RP roll per the Necron Codex. The Lord however, would get a chance because he is removed as a casualty from the SA. There are no rules contradictions. Everything happens as it should. Think of EL as a RP that does not require a unit to be around it to work. It's very plain man I don't see why you continue to argue against a GW FAQ. You may not like it but that is how it is. I'm done with this thread because I can only argue with stubborn refusal to admit defeat for so long.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
The unit dies as they cannot take a RP roll per the Necron Codex. The Lord however, would get a chance because he is removed as a casualty from the SA. There are no rules contradictions. Everything happens as it should. Think of EL as a RP that does not require a unit to be around it to work. It's very plain man I don't see why you continue to argue against a GW FAQ. You may not like it but that is how it is. I'm done with this thread because I can only argue with stubborn refusal to admit defeat for so long.

So assume for the moment that the Lord stands back up (or is revived. resuscitated, or whatever word you want to use). Has the unit been returned to play, yes or no? If not, then is the Lord still scoring, yes or no? Can the Lord be targeted for purposes of the Repair Barge special rule (assuming he was attached to Warriors), yes or no?

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
The unit dies as they cannot take a RP roll per the Necron Codex. The Lord however, would get a chance because he is removed as a casualty from the SA. There are no rules contradictions. Everything happens as it should. Think of EL as a RP that does not require a unit to be around it to work.

So the Lord isn't part of the unit that cannot be rescued?

It's very plain man I don't see why you continue to argue against a GW FAQ. You may not like it but that is how it is.

I'm not arguing against the FAQ at all. It doesn't apply here.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, no, no. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. I can't continue with this line of argument anymore, so its been fun, sir!

I'm not skipping that. At all. I've addressed that literally every time you accuse me of skipping it.

Perhaps you'd actually like to address my argument instead of accusing me of doing something I'm demonstrably not? That'd be great.

OK...last post from me. You can have the last word.

Here is the precise point at which your line of argument falls apart:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because when the unit is placed back on the table you've rescued it from being destroyed. Meaning that placing the marker is an attempt to save the unit from being destroyed.

This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

You cannot even place an EL marker on the board UNLESS THE MODEL IS REMOVED AS A CASUALTY.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

 jasper76 wrote:
This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

If the models is destroyed, it's not on the table. You're putting it on the table. You're contradicting yourself.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

I'm not ignoring it. I've agreed that the SA removes the models from the table.
You're the one saying that putting them back isn't rescuing them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

If the models is destroyed, it's not on the table. You're putting it on the table. You're contradicting yourself.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

I'm not ignoring it. I've agreed that the SA removes the models from the table.
You're the one saying that putting them back isn't rescuing them.

wouldn't the premise of "rescuing" the models need to happen before they get killed ?

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

If the models is destroyed, it's not on the table. You're putting it on the table. You're contradicting yourself.

It's NOT on the table dude. It's destroyed by the Sweeping Advance and taken off the table. DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS.

Taking it off the table triggers the Ever Living rule. Ever Living is not a save, nor is it a rescue. If it was, it would have prevented the Sweeping Advance from killing the unit. It is a rule that allows DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS models to come back onto the table.

Until you accept and get past the plain fact that the Sweeping Advance makes the unit DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS, you won't understand that Ever Living works on models that are DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS.

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, no, no. You keep skipping the plain fact that the unit is actually destroyed by the Sweeping Advance. I can't continue with this line of argument anymore, so its been fun, sir!

I'm not skipping that. At all. I've addressed that literally every time you accuse me of skipping it.

Perhaps you'd actually like to address my argument instead of accusing me of doing something I'm demonstrably not? That'd be great.

OK...last post from me. You can have the last word.

Here is the precise point at which your line of argument falls apart:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because when the unit is placed back on the table you've rescued it from being destroyed. Meaning that placing the marker is an attempt to save the unit from being destroyed.

This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

You cannot even place an EL marker on the board UNLESS THE MODEL IS REMOVED AS A CASUALTY.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I think what he is saying, is that because the Lord is, in fact, killed by the sweeping advance, you are not attempting to save him by using the EL roll to bring him back. He isn't saved. He is killed. Dead. Gone. Aidios. Goodbye. Checkmate. Shed loose the mortal coil. Therefore the SA resolves, and at the end of the phase, the EL roll is made.

Also, I have been reading the thread. It is honestly a good source of humor for me because you aren't really arguing anymore. You've been clearly beaten. So no need to be all bitter. You can't argue the FAQ. You certainly cannot argue the resolution step of the SA. So why exactly do you continue to argue?

Ok, let's just stop with the IS - IS NOT argument here as it will get nowhere.

If both of you agree fully that the model is "fully removed", then explain to me - with rules to support yourself, why i cannot get 2 Slay the warlord points?
And 2 point on purge the alien?

I have ultimately destroyed the Lord on turn 4, and killed another lord, not the saved one, not the one rescued, to get another Kill point on turn 5.

If you decide that i only get 1 Kill point, then you are showing me this is "the same" Lord, with "the same equipment" who has somehow come back.
If he has returned, as per a special rule, like Ever-Living, then you are breaking the SA rule that states that the model that was swept is now out of the game.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Ok, let's just stop with the IS - IS NOT argument here as it will get nowhere.

If both of you agree fully that the model is "fully removed", then explain to me - with rules to support yourself, why i cannot get 2 Slay the warlord points?
And 2 point on purge the alien?

I have ultimately destroyed the Lord on turn 4, and killed another lord, not the saved one, not the one rescued, to get another Kill point on turn 5.

If you decide that i only get 1 Kill point, then you are showing me this is "the same" Lord, with "the same equipment" who has somehow come back.
If he has returned, as per a special rule, like Ever-Living, then you are breaking the SA rule that states that the model that was swept is now out of the game.

"Unless otherwise specified..."

"for them, the battle is over" is trumped by the Ever Living special rule.

As for Kill Points, I won't pretend to know the answer to that question.

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

If the models is destroyed, it's not on the table. You're putting it on the table. You're contradicting yourself.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

I'm not ignoring it. I've agreed that the SA removes the models from the table.
You're the one saying that putting them back isn't rescuing them.

wouldn't the premise of "rescuing" the models need to happen before they get killed ?

Not at all. The unit ceases to exist and then exists again. It was rescued from death.

You're captured and imprisoned on a space station bigger than (but oft confused as) a moon. I board the station and disguise myself as a local soldier. I get you out of your cell - I've rescued you, but I wasn't there before you were captured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
Until you accept and get past the plain fact that the Sweeping Advance makes the unit DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS, you won't understand that Ever Living works on models that are DEAD, GONE, DESTROYED, ADIOS.

So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
"Unless otherwise specified..."

"for them, the battle is over" is trumped by the Ever Living special rule.

Where does EL specify (remember the definition) otherwise that SA doesn't apply?

As for Kill Points, I won't pretend to know the answer to that question.

You need to answer it as it's absolutely relevant to the discussion.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Point 4 - This has already been FAQ'd
"Q: If an entire unit. including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol roll?
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Counterpoint - That still does not specify EL works against SA. Therefore it does not.

I am guessing this is the "FAQ covers it" part you are referring to?

Because you are wiped out by a lot of shots, Dangerous terrain, close combat and many other things.

This is a fluff argument, but Sweeping Advance is not Wiping out the unit: You are just capturing all of them because you play Dark Eldar. How can you resurrect from being captured?


PS: RaW side of it seems clear though - "for them the battle is over" - no being on the table for this game.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Point 4 - This has already been FAQ'd
"Q: If an entire unit. including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol roll?
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Counterpoint - That still does not specify EL works against SA. Therefore it does not.

I am guessing this is the "FAQ covers it" part you are referring to?

Because you are wiped out by a lot of shots, Dangerous terrain, close combat and many other things.

This is a fluff argument, but Sweeping Advance is not Wiping out the unit: You are just capturing all of them because you play Dark Eldar. How can you resurrect from being captured?


PS: RaW side of it seems clear though - "for them the battle is over" - no being on the table for this game.

All of your models are removed as casualties from a sweepiong advance. If that is not "wiping out" a unit, then I don't know hat is, and lets stop right here, because we won't ever agree on this without an FAQ for the FAQ.

RAW, Ever Living trumps BRB "for them the battle is over".

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.

No - it's absolutely relevant to the conversation. Please answer the question.

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.

However that is very important as rigeld points out: Either
A) New unit - this just break the game completely, so it is a bit of a trick question.
B) The same unit.

Now in this case you really have to answer B, because A does not work. If you pick B however, this means that the same Lord, you HQ choice has come back to life.

He is back onto the table.
He exists again after a rule in the Warhammer rulebook has clearly said that he cannot ever exist on the table again:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage;for them the battle is over

That one line from the Rulebook says that nothing can return in any way: "no (...) other special rule can rescue the unit", a special rule like Ever-Living for example.

Unless of course, it is "otherwise specified". Like, for example, the space marine "They shall know no fear" rule. Have you read that rule? If someone quotes it, you will understand how Sweeping Advance is "otherwise specified".

I hope this helps.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.

No - it's absolutely relevant to the conversation. Please answer the question.

I did dude. "I don't know" is an answer.

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.

No - it's absolutely relevant to the conversation. Please answer the question.

I did dude. "I don't know" is an answer.

Honestly, I don't think that's true. For you to have a valid standing in this discussion you have to be able to answer relevant questions. "I don't know" as an answer to a question that can make or break your argument isn't acceptable.

Please take some time to think about it and answer with a yes or no.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
This is just dead wrong. Plain and simple. By placing an Ever Living marker, and later in the game successfully rolling your EL for that marker, you are NOT rescuing the model from being destroyed. THE MODEL IS DESTROYED.

If the models is destroyed, it's not on the table. You're putting it on the table. You're contradicting yourself.

The reason I keep saying this over and over (and over and over) is that you keep ignoring it, then you say that you are not ignoring it....the definition of "willfull ignorance".

I'm not ignoring it. I've agreed that the SA removes the models from the table.
You're the one saying that putting them back isn't rescuing them.

wouldn't the premise of "rescuing" the models need to happen before they get killed ?

Not at all. The unit ceases to exist and then exists again. It was rescued from death.

You're captured and imprisoned on a space station bigger than (but oft confused as) a moon. I board the station and disguise myself as a local soldier. I get you out of your cell - I've rescued you, but I wasn't there before you were captured.

But i can still say i was captured . You did not rescue me from being captured , i was in a cell . You freed me from my cell . we then left the station . You freed me from imprisonment , you did not rescue me form being captured

Or read my post above because it's a trick question

I did. You were a captive. I rescued you.
You were destroyed. I rescued you.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
So is it a new unit that is put on the table? Yes or no - simple question.

I don't know if a model that returns from Ever Living constitutes a new unit, or an old unit brought back from the grave. It is immaterial to the conversation, unless you are talking about Kill Points now.

However that is very important as rigeld points out: Either
A) New unit - this just break the game completely, so it is a bit of a trick question.
B) The same unit.

Now in this case you really have to answer B, because A does not work. If you pick B however, this means that the same Lord, you HQ choice has come back to life.

He is back onto the table.
He exists again after a rule in the Warhammer rulebook has clearly said that he cannot ever exist on the table again:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage;for them the battle is over

That one line from the Rulebook says that nothing can return in any way: "no (...) other special rule can rescue the unit", a special rule like Ever-Living for example.

Unless of course, it is "otherwise specified". Like, for example, the space marine "They shall know no fear" rule. Have you read that rule? If someone quotes it, you will understand how Sweeping Advance is "otherwise specified".

I hope this helps.

The Space Marine example is not relevant, as the Space Marine example is not a global rule.

So, but thankfully we are back to the interesting point here.

"Unless otherwise specified" means "Unless otherwise specified". If you can point me to a rule (not an example, but an actual rule) that changes the meaning of this common phrase, I'll look at it with a very open mind. Until then, (a) Ever Living rule in the Necron Codex and (b) Ever Living FAQ serve as completely valid examples of "otherwise specified".

Jasper save yourself the aggravation it's not worth it.

rigeld2 wrote:
I did. You were a captive. I rescued you.
You were destroyed. I rescued you.

Forget the fluff...the only thing that matters here is "removed from the game as a casulaty". This is the specific RAW trigger to lay down an Ever Living counter.

Jasper - all this has shown is you do not understand what "specify" means, at all. It is a very basic concept that, even when shown the definition of, you are still failing to grasp.

Read ATSKNF. Notice how it. Mentions SA? Understand - THAT is what specific means. EL works against any source of REmove as a Casualty. That is the general rule. SA is a very specific rule.

RAW for them the battle is over. That unit that was removd cannot be placed back on the table.

Your argument is refuted, please mark your posts as hywpi, as they are not RAW