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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Absolutely despicable. That is no way to treat the people who served their country
It's no way to treat anyone regardless of what they have done.
This, yes. I find it strange that we're saying "That is no way to treat the people who served their country", and not simply, "That is no way to treat people".
Maybe because we are talking specifically about veterans. But I get your point so lets not get caught up with an unnecessary sidebar that distracts from the topic at hand.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Absolutely despicable. That is no way to treat the people who served their country
It's no way to treat anyone regardless of what they have done.
This, yes. I find it strange that we're saying "That is no way to treat the people who served their country", and not simply, "That is no way to treat people".
Maybe because we are talking specifically about veterans. But I get your point so lets not get caught up with an unnecessary sidebar that distracts from the topic at hand.
Fair enough. Topic is dropped, and regardless of semantics, it makes what's going on no less nightmarish.
So when I was in school I relied on VA health care, I have a service linked disability so I qualified. One week I had a super nasty cold couldn't get out of bed just destroyed by whatever virus/bacteria had a hold of me. I called my primary provider (main doctor) for an appointment and was given a time slot 4 weeks out. I responded with "It will be cured or I'll be dead by then" they responded with come to the ER. The ER waits at VA hospitals are ridiculous, like 8-12 hours ridiculous.
Eventually I figured out that if you went to the ER at like 3am you could get seen in an hour or two.
I'm happy to pay for private insurance these days and do so without complaint.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Y'know the sad thing, I have seen that argument before, that it is their fault they got injured.
I hate California Colleges sometimes.
The weird part is that I've seen people in the Army (and Army brats) say it
Sometimes the whole self sacrifice thing is taken a little too seriously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 17:33:38
d-usa wrote: At any large ER, an 8 hour wait for a non-emergent care is not really out of the ordinary though.
When I cut my hand open prying stuff off of an ebay Rhino, I was at the ER for about 4-5 hours before they finally got around to stitching me up. They at least bothered to get it gauzed up in a couple hours.
Nothing like being the guy ACTUALLY hurt at the ER, and it take forever to get in. Have to deal with the guy who has a head cold and the woman with the toothache first though. Wouldn't want to give the impression that the guy with blood running down his arm is more special than they are.
d-usa wrote: At any large ER, an 8 hour wait for a non-emergent care is not really out of the ordinary though.
When I cut my hand open prying stuff off of an ebay Rhino, I was at the ER for about 4-5 hours before they finally got around to stitching me up. They at least bothered to get it gauzed up in a couple hours.
Nothing like being the guy ACTUALLY hurt at the ER, and it take forever to get in. Have to deal with the guy who has a head cold and the woman with the toothache first though. Wouldn't want to give the impression that the guy with blood running down his arm is more special than they are.
The guy with the blood is not any more special in the ER though, especially if its just a cut that can be fixed with a couple of stitches.
Based on ESI Triage laceration and toothache would have been Level 4, so they would be the same urgency. Ideally whoever came in first at that level would be seen first at that level. Depending on available resources (you can xray a toothache and treat him in the hallway, but you need an actual room to do suturing) one might skip ahead though. Head cold could be a Level 5 or 4 (depending on the symptoms ), and most places treat 4 or 5 the same.
Anybody level 3 or higher would be seen before the level 4 or 5, it doesn't matter if they arrived 5 minutes later or 5 hours later.
The idea of "they should be able to fix a small problem quickly, so I should be in and out quickly" is the exact opposite of how an ER actually works.
That's not defending an ER at a VA, that's talking about ERs anywhere.
Edit:
The standards of care and expectations from an ER might be another topic that would be had elsewhere though, that way we can focus on the reprehensible actions by the officials in Phoenix.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 18:13:35
daedalus wrote: A lot of that is surprising and not things I would agree with, but I agree to keeping the thread on-topic.
It's the reason why, after the long delay of moving our records department, we build a new urgent care clinic at our facility. So quick "in-and-out" stuff can quickly go in-and-out, and the ER can focus on the serious stuff that takes time and resources to treat.
So for walk-in problems we have a three-tiered approach at our VA:
- If you are a regular patient here you will go see your primary care physician on a walk-in basis, that keeps all your care with the same person. Even though everybody can access all your records there is a benefit to having that continuity of care. - If your PCP is totally filled up, or you don't have a PCP at our facility, then you get send to the urgent care clinic. - If your problem is too involved for urgent care (the same person does triage for the ER and Urgent Care) then you get directed to the ER instead.
It has helped with our times and improved our care for our veterans
(Figured that talking about how specifically we handle things in our VA might be a bit more on-topic than "all ERs have long wait times" in general...).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 18:35:00
d-usa wrote: At any large ER, an 8 hour wait for a non-emergent care is not really out of the ordinary though.
Agreed but "aint nobody got time for that" and by not having access to primary care and suggesting the ER they make the waits longer for everyone else by jamming it up with non critical issues. It was such a wierd system, have a cold 4 weeks, podiatrist oh we can get you into him in 1 day.
d-usa wrote: At any large ER, an 8 hour wait for a non-emergent care is not really out of the ordinary though.
Agreed but "aint nobody got time for that" and by not having access to primary care and suggesting the ER they make the waits longer for everyone else by jamming it up with non critical issues.
Agreed. I do think that often times the PCP is more to blame for ER overcrowding than patients themselves.
It was such a wierd system, have a cold 4 weeks, podiatrist oh we can get you into him in 1 day.
Well, the rate of combat-related toe problems is probably a lot lower
In the Frazzled household if you go to the ER you will be let in the back within two minutes.
Of course in the Frazzled household its statistically likely if you go to the ER, you're going to die. if not then, within three months.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
First, as an employee of the VA (VBA), I find this to be appalling. Sadly, I can believe it, and see it happen somewhat on the benefits side of the house too. Whenever I handle a case for an 80+ year old vet, I do what's in my power to get their claim done sooner/faster/quicker. For terminal vets and the like, we actually have a dedicated team for that. In my dealings with them, they generally do a good job IMO. Sadly, much of our direction from senior management is all about the numbers.
Secondly, CptJake, loved the video! As both a vet and a VA employee, I really appreciated all of the aspects. With that being said, I see myself (and some of those I am fortunate to work with) more as this:
And:
There is a fine line between genius and insanity and I colored it in with crayon.
(CNN) -- Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki told the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday that he will not resign in the wake of his department being accused of deadly delays in health care at some of its hospitals.
"I serve at the pleasure of the president," Shinseki told the newspaper when asked whether he would step down. "I signed on to make some changes, I have work to do."
The White House stood its ground when asked whether Shinseki will continue to lead the department.
In its daily briefing -- a question-and-answer session dominated by lengthy discussions on the conflict in Ukraine, abducted Nigerian schoolgirls and the White House climate change report -- press secretary Jay Carney offered only a few sentences when asked whether Shinseki's job was safe.
President Barack Obama takes seriously the allegations that veterans died waiting for care at the Phoenix VA hospital, Carney said, reiterating that the VA's inspector general is conducting an independent probe into the allegations.
"The President remains confident in Secretary Shinseki's ability to lead the department and take appropriate action," Carney said, repeating the White House response this week to two veterans groups' calls for Shinseki's ouster.
Shinseki said Tuesday that is "very sensitive to the allegations" coming from the Phoenix probe.
"I need to let the independent IG (inspector general) complete his investigation," he told the Journal.
Calls for his resignation
On Monday, the nation's largest veteran organization, the American Legion, and another veterans group, Concerned Veterans for America, called for Shinseki's resignation.
The calls came after months of CNN exclusive reporting on U.S. veterans who have died awaiting care at VA hospitals across the country, including in Phoenix.
"It's not something we do lightly. But we do so today because it is our responsibility as advocate for the men and women who have worn this nation's uniform," said Daniel M. Dellinger, national commander of the American Legion.
Added Pete Hegseth, CEO of the Concerned Veterans of America, in a statement:
"We're proud to stand with The American Legion as they take this courageous and historic stand. As America's largest veterans organization, their moral authority on this issue is unimpeachable. We applaud their demands for accountability at the very top of the Department of Veterans Affairs."
Dozens of deaths
Shinseki told the Wall Street Journal that he would increase the communication among the leaders atop his department and veterans and address what appears to be a lack of faith in top management.
"If veteran service organizations are voicing concern about that, I will accept I have work to do to bolster confidence in their health care system," he said.
CNN has been reporting on delays in care and patient deaths at VA hospitals for the past six months, including at hospitals in South Carolina, Georgia and Texas.
After CNN's coverage, the VA acknowledged in April that 23 veterans had died as a result of delayed care in recent years, but sources tell CNN that number could be much higher.
In an exclusive report two weeks ago, CNN interviewed a retired VA doctor from Phoenix who charged that more than 40 American veterans have died waiting for care at the VA hospital there.
Throughout the network's reporting, CNN has submitted numerous requests for an interview with Shinseki, but in the six months that CNN has been reporting on the delays, Shinseki has yet to speak to CNN.
CNN is not alone in getting virtually no response from VA officials.
U.S. Rep. Jeff Miller of Florida, chairman of the House Veterans Affairs Committee, issued this statement late Monday:
"For nearly a year, we have been pleading with top department leaders and President Obama to take immediate steps to stop the growing pattern of preventable veteran deaths and hold accountable any and all VA employees who have allowed patients to slip through the cracks.
"In response, we've received disturbing silence from the White House and one excuse after another from VA."
VA spokesman Drew Brookie's statement, released late Monday, read:
"The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) takes any allegations about patient care or employee misconduct very seriously. If the VA Office of Inspector General's investigation substantiates allegations of employee misconduct, swift and appropriate action will be taken. Veterans deserve to have full faith in their VA care.
"Under the leadership of Secretary Shinseki and his team, VA has made strong progress in recent years to better serve veterans both now and in the future. The secretary knows there is more work to do."
Shinseki told the Wall Street Journal that he would increase the communication among the leaders atop his department and veterans and address what appears to be a lack of faith in top management.
"If veteran service organizations are voicing concern about that, I will accept I have work to do to bolster confidence in their health care system," he said.
Firing people would be a good start for that, lots of firing people...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/07 12:59:41
Shinseki told the Wall Street Journal that he would increase the communication among the leaders atop his department and veterans and address what appears to be a lack of faith in top management.
"If veteran service organizations are voicing concern about that, I will accept I have work to do to bolster confidence in their health care system," he said.
Firing people would be a good start for that, lots of firing people...
That, taking personal responsibility, and resigning
Not sure how I missed this reply, especially posted like 10 minutes after my own post, but I'm glad to see that things are clearing up. I remember the database issue coming up in another thread, and sadly am not shocked that so many groups use different systems. I'm at the FTC and we work closely with both the SEC and DOJ/Anti-Trust, yet we all use completely different systems requiring completely different data sets. It's ludicrous, but I do understand.
As to the VA dude not resigning, I'm actually for it. Swapping out leadership at this point will only delay any positive changes that might have been made, as Congress and the President battle over who gets to sit in the chair. I don't expect department heads to be omniscient, so forcing someone to resign because a bunch of chuckleheads took great steps to hide their shenanigans isn't cause for resignation in my book. Let the guy clean the mess up, deal with those that broke the law, and then he can see about getting out. Resigning now just exacerbates the situation.
Shinseki told the Wall Street Journal that he would increase the communication among the leaders atop his department and veterans and address what appears to be a lack of faith in top management. "If veteran service organizations are voicing concern about that, I will accept I have work to do to bolster confidence in their health care system," he said.
Firing people would be a good start for that, lots of firing people...
If the VA is like any other government agency, they will scapegoat the lowest possible person, and move on.
Honestly, scandals like this are inevitable, given the cost to any person involved to report it. A whistleblower will, at absolute best, be marginilized, harrassed, and never promoted. I've seen reprots of managment hiring Private Investigators to try to dig up dirt on whistleblowers. Those that are fired can usually at least sue, and after five or so years, recieve a small settlement.
In practice, the rule of thumb for federal employees is that "snitches get stitches."
Edit: the success rate of those that file Whistleblower protection claims is less than 2%. Or was in ~2009.
I have not been highly impressed by Shinseki when he was a G.O. in the 90's either.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Since support for their veterans seems to be such a big part of the US military's 'sell', perhaps they should think about bringing the services 'in house' and dump the VA completely
They'd be better placed to see what was going on, if those working within it were under the military chain of command it should be easier to remove weak links and since services would also be available to serving personnel they should have higher buying power and thus get goods & services cheaper
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
