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So how do we fix this broken unit? I know the next Eldar codex will nerf them, but that's still a couple years away and until then, what is the right "sportsman" thing to do? Not buy holofield upgrades? Not fire the shield?

I don't think increasing the cost is appropriate because it's a dedicated transport and needs to be fieldable as one. If you increase the cost, all you are doing is pushing it further towards use as a main battle tank.

The obvious problem area is the Serpent Shield as a combination of power, range and Ignore Cover to make a truly tank-ruining sniper. I have no real issue with the Shield when it is used defensively and would consider it to be accurate. After all, the fluff says that it is only fired as a last resort and so I'd expect it to be a fantastic defensive unit.

My own recommendation would be to absolutely gut the range on the shield, down to 6-12". This could well come in with a price break for all the harm it would do to the vehicle but it needs to be encouraged to move and actually transport units, not dart about on the backline and send waves of power 60" downwind with surgical accuracy.
I think you could even go for a 2-in-1 fix here by allowing it to count as an Assault Vehicle on the turn that the Shield is fired, so Banshees suddenly have a place in the world again.

More transport, less artillery!

Change the range of the Serpent Shield to 12". Leave the points the same. Its a good model w/o the shield, but the 60" makes it OTT.

Lucarikx

Its our *only* DT, and our only other transport is an HS that only fits 6, costs 165+ kitted, and dies like a Dreadnought.

6" or 12" should make things right.

Bharring wrote:
Its our *only* DT, and our only other transport is an HS that only fits 6, costs 165+ kitted, and dies like a Dreadnought.

A dreadnought with a 4+ cover save and one that can move 12" and still fire both primaries at BS4.



Personally I think going back to the 5th edition serpent shield would be best - all weapons over S8 are counted as S8 while firing at the front or sides of the wave serpent.

Drop the shield range to 12-18", OR just make it one-use only. Once it's fired you don't get the defensive benefit anymore.

The Wave Serpent shield is insanely strong and point-efficient, on both defensive and offensive profiles.
I understand Phil Kelly wanted to reintroduce old rules of the tank, way back in Epic 40k , 2nd edition. But they were overpowered, and now we have the same issue.
Here are some ideas :

* To conform the weapon profile with a directed wave phenomenon, and ignoring cover, it should not be multi-shot, rather template.
Torrent fits well, 12+8" range would help bringing it under control. This range matches with those of the rest of weaponry.
Then STR:7 AP- could be kept as is.

* I feel the save against penetrating damage could be reduced from 2+ to 3+.

* Get rid of scatter laser making other weapons rerollable. It's just a lazy copy of Tau markerlights, slows the game, awkward : resolve first, while all weapons count as firing simultaneously ( ?!? ).
This auto-take option, grants an almost 100% guaranteed twin-linking of other weapons, is bad game design. Why rolling the dice when it's all but sure you will get twin-linking anyway ? It adds insult to injury.


Taking at least 2 out of these 3 ideas, I will be OK with Wave Serpent being its current price.

I agree. Nobody said the Scatter Laser sucked in the old codex. It was perfectly balanced.

Even with the new Shuriken Cannon gaining quasi-rending, the SC would still be a competitive option for having 12" more range and 1 more shot

Change Serpent Shield to D3+1 hits.

Average performance is slightly worse compared with current not using a scatter laser; significantly worse when compared with using a scatter laser where you would expect all hits from the D6+1 to hit.

Just wondering how many people here actually play Eldar, when you roll a double 1 on to hits on the save the shield has limited usefulness... but I guess that is my fault for playing deathwing in a past life

A reduction in range might be in order, maybe 18-24 and the idea of being able to turn the tank into an assault vehicle is awesome. That would then fit with the reduced range as you would have to get up close an personal to be able to make the charge when you disembark.

As an elder player it pains me to say but perhaps losing/reducing cover saves (not jink) when the shield is still up. From a fluff point of view imagine the shield is a glowing aura of energy, so making the tank more visible, maybe even negating night fighting against anything shooting at it.

What I think gets lost is that it IS the only Eldar DT. Rhinos and chimeras might lack the punch but they are a fraction of the cost...

Ban them. I'm that sick of them at this point. Eldar can get them back in 7th. They can go without transports till then and see how the rest of us live.

No other faction pays as much for t3 infantry as Eldar. No other faction, fluffwise, is as mobile or has nearly as good transports. Add to it very little in the way of deep striking, and its really hard to do footdar. We need a decent transport.

The idea to drop their range drastically works best in my opinion. Then its a short burst to help the unit its transporting and the pinning rule could theoretically be handy, or to provide a last ditch 'get away!' fire.

I'm still waiting on a way to make pinning worthwhile too, now that I think of it.

Make it a one time use only effect. If you deploy the shield in the game you can't deploy it again. That would fix it, and if you do you sacrifice your shooting phase on your following turn.
and make the serpent take up an elite slot as opposed to a dedicated transport slot.

Slash range on the Serpent Shield is the biggest consideration, without that it's no longer a better/cheaper Falcon than the Falcon.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Change the range of the Serpent Shield to 12". Leave the points the same. Its a good model w/o the shield, but the 60" makes it OTT.

Lucarikx

I agree entirely. 12" means it's still devastating up close, but it isn't packing as much firepower as a TLAC dreadnought while having a good 24" on the old boy.

Even 24" would be fine, although 12" would be idea - it would ensure that it would hurt a lot, but you'd be using it at a cost - your defences would be down, and if your enemy is packing a meltagun you're toast.

Bharring wrote:
No other faction pays as much for t3 infantry as Eldar. No other faction, fluffwise, is as mobile or has nearly as good transports. Add to it very little in the way of deep striking, and its really hard to do footdar. We need a decent transport.

Cry me a river,elf boy. No one else gets a main battle tank as a TRANSPORT.

Bharring wrote:
No other faction pays as much for t3 infantry as Eldar. No other faction, fluffwise, is as mobile or has nearly as good transports. Add to it very little in the way of deep striking, and its really hard to do footdar. We need a decent transport.

No other faction has access to 9 point BS4 rending shooting.

No other faction has access to t6 troops who can hide in a vehicle.

No other faction has access to S10 T8.

No other faction has access to a tank that's meant to be a survivable transport but can rip your face off at a moments notice.

No other faction has access to no less than 6 eternal warriors

No other faction has access to 100 point ML3 psykers

No other faction has access to a tank with a weapon that can fulfil any given role at any given time.

No other army has access to 17 point troop jet bikes

Lose the "woe is me" attitude.

Anything actually constructive to say for this rather than whining with a 'woe is me' attitude about facing waveserpents?

Wave Serpents don't need a nerf, they have a few tricks up their sleeves (Like all eldar should) but they are not to broken.

Yes they either can be very killy or very defensive but can't both at the same time. If had them for the price of a rhino sure get rid of the shooting shield but when they normally cost 4 times more then a rhino heck yeah want them to be as good as they are.

Where they are broken is when mixed with a psyker for reroll cover saves. But everything is broken with reroll saves

Bassline wrote:
Wave Serpents don't need a nerf, they have a few tricks up their sleeves (Like all eldar should) but they are not to broken.

Yes they either can be very killy or very defensive but can't both at the same time. If had them for the price of a rhino sure get rid of the shooting shield but when they normally cost 4 times more then a rhino heck yeah want them to be as good as they are.

Where they are broken is when mixed with a psyker for reroll cover saves. But everything is broken with reroll saves

They are very broken.

They're very killy. Nobody needs to be able to reduce pens to glances when you can only take 3 glances. They do cost on average 4 times the price of a rhino. Sure, but they have two more weapons and three weapons that far outstrip a rhino's single storm bolter.

You do realise the Serpent shield *just* ignores cover, right? The rule which I think you're referring to - perfect timing *just* lets the psyker's unit ignore cover. IT doesn't cast on a tank and there's nothing about re-rolling saves. Please, if you're going to rush to the defence of a toy in your arsenal, know the rules you're defending.

Finally, a Dreadnought pays 20 points shy of a wave serpent for the same output (bar the scatter laser) and is the same chassis, but is 6" slower and doesn't get the cover save bonus a wave serpent does. Did I mention how a dreadnought isn't a dedicated transport and you can take, at most, 6 of the things if you take a master of the forge tax? All Eldar have t do is take 6 54 point troop choices. Oh no, I got to take MSU ON TOP of my stomp-face 6 armoured units.

Edit: Made my response less flamey.

Turn the serpent shield into an ordinary template.

Not a torrent.

Just a template.

 Kain wrote:
Turn the serpent shield into an ordinary template.

Not a torrent.

Just a template.

D6+1 templates, right?

We're still keeping the thing broken here!

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Turn the serpent shield into an ordinary template.

Not a torrent.

Just a template.

D6+1 templates, right?

We're still keeping the thing broken here!

It should be a torrent, but can place the template 60" away and then it moves another 2D6" and hits every model it passes over. If it hits a vehicle, the vehicle takes 2D6 S7 hits, and MCs are struck down automatically.

To represent the knockback, enemies hit automatically break, even if they are fearless though get to regroup afterwards. Because it is a blowback and not a real break test, ATSKNF cannot be used either.

Also, as it's a crushing attack, instead of having a strength, units must pass an initiative test or die (no saves of any kind allowed).

To balance this out, the price is increased by 5 points.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Turn the serpent shield into an ordinary template.

Not a torrent.

Just a template.

D6+1 templates, right?

We're still keeping the thing broken here!

The template hits at S: Feth you.

S: Feth you is the one strength level higher than D, as you grab your hard cover Eldar codex and bludgeon your enemy into unconsciousness and claim victory.

You may then steal your opponent's models and whatever is in his or her wallet.

I'd say make it one use only and bring its range down to that of a Scatter Laser (36?) that way it isn't increasing the tank's max range kill-zone and if that isn't enough bring its downgrade from a 2+ to a 3+ or even a 4+.

Seriously, a lot of the problem is to do with the scatter laser making it TL so if you get a good lot of hits (rolling a 4+ for number basically) you can expect all of them to hit.

Hence my suggestion: Auto hits, but it's reduced to D3+1, so at best it gets as many hits as a slightly below average result with the scatter laser, while it still being a really good option and do good damage, and making the Scatter Laser no longer a 'no brainer'.

Bassline wrote:
Wave Serpents don't need a nerf, they have a few tricks up their sleeves (Like all eldar should) but they are not to broken.

Yes they either can be very killy or very defensive but can't both at the same time. If had them for the price of a rhino sure get rid of the shooting shield but when they normally cost 4 times more then a rhino heck yeah want them to be as good as they are.

Where they are broken is when mixed with a psyker for reroll cover saves. But everything is broken with reroll saves

Unfortunately you seem to be very confused about the actual rules and hence likely don't understand just how broken Cheese Serpents are.

for one (major thing) It already ignores cover.................

To fix it needs a huge price increase or the shield being one shot (and loss of the defensive element) and/or very short range (you know to actually fit the fluff and make it not just broken)

Also it would be better if there was a way of making it an assault vehicle (which also maybe makes Banshees usable) and likely make Falcons a DT as well........

The fluff for it has it at the long range.

The problem is that D6+1 shots all at S7 is just too much, combined with all of them hitting thanks to free twin linking from scatter lasers.

 Daba wrote:
The fluff for it has it at the long range.

The problem is that D6+1 shots all at S7 is just too much, combined with all of them hitting thanks to free twin linking from scatter lasers.

Doesn't the fluff have it be a video game style directional shockwave?

A template, torrent, or line would make much more sense.