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Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






A query: say my imperial knight is shooting at marines that are in a void shield. I get ten hits over the scatters, and now it's time to roll to wound. Do I first roll wounds one at a time against the void shield, and whatever is left after I take it down I roll to wound? is that right?

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East Coast, USA

That sounds correct.

Blasts can be extremely effective at taking down Void Shields for just this reason.

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Catskills in NYS

Look back a few pages or so. There are lots of threads about this.

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good, that is great news =D mwahahahaha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and can you give me an example?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 18:07:43


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 Tiger9gamer wrote:
good, that is great news =D mwahahahaha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and can you give me an example?


pg 16 fast dice, roll a number of dice equal to the shields left.

stronghold pg 18, void shields, after the shield collapses, further hits strike the original target.

 
   
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Catskills in NYS

But don't they all hit at the same time?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 18:12:34


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
But don't they all hit at the same time?


yes, and all the hits are transferred to the shield, then back to the unit. so you're basically treating it like a mixed save unit.

 
   
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Catskills in NYS

sirlynchmob wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
But don't they all hit at the same time?


yes, and all the hits are transferred to the shield, then back to the unit. so you're basically treating it like a mixed save unit.

Oh, I thought they were just all transferred to the shield .

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
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East Coast, USA

You resolve the first hit and it transfers to the shield. You then resolve the second hit and if the shield is still standing, it transfers to the shield... etc. etc. Eventually the shield drops and the remaining hits don't have anything to transfer to.

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Wraith






This is how most major GTs are ruling it, too. It's clear as mud, but always make sure you have consensus of your opponent(s) prior to starting the game.

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Little Rock, Arkansas

By raw yes, you could theoretically break through 10 void shields with that one blast.

Hiwp for the sake of sanity? One shot = one void shield. Granted I would also let my opponent hit the void shield if a blast template landed anywhere in the void shielded area.

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 Kriswall wrote:
You resolve the first hit and it transfers to the shield. You then resolve the second hit and if the shield is still standing, it transfers to the shield... etc. etc. Eventually the shield drops and the remaining hits don't have anything to transfer to.


Last sentence is wrong, Remaining hits transfer back to the unit, Per the rules.

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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
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Ireland

The rules for a void shield generator say for every shooting attack, as we read that it looked to be 1 shield for every blast template if you can glance or pen it.

Unless someone can prove that a shooting attack is every model hit by a blast then I don't see anything wrong with how we ran it a few weeks back.

THey are very powerful unless you have a lot of anti-tank weapons in the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
You resolve the first hit and it transfers to the shield. You then resolve the second hit and if the shield is still standing, it transfers to the shield... etc. etc. Eventually the shield drops and the remaining hits don't have anything to transfer to.


Last sentence is wrong, Remaining hits transfer back to the unit, Per the rules.

If the hit is transfered to the void sheild then there are no models hit other than the sheild. So unless you have a number of blasts from that unit you won't be getting he models underneath.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 20:46:33


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Vanished Completely

If the shot is transfered to the shield then no hits are generated, a Special Rule is not a model and only models generate hits....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 21:53:53


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Ireland

Is a void sheild generator not a model?

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
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 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is a void sheild generator not a model?


There was a model, but it was limited edition and $100 bucks (still sold out,...).

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Ireland

Yes it is, I know nobody that actually bought it.

However my point was that the generator is a model and the rules say how it works when it is hit by shooting attack.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

You target units not models so the blast is resolved against the shield not as if it populates a wound pool.

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Vanished Completely

Take a closer look at the Rule as it states to transfer the hit's to the Projected Shield, which is the name of the Special Rule, and mentions nothing about resolving these hit's against the Generator.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 22:50:54


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Dimmamar

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes it is, I know nobody that actually bought it.

However my point was that the generator is a model and the rules say how it works when it is hit by shooting attack.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

You target units not models so the blast is resolved against the shield not as if it populates a wound pool.


This is correct. One void shield catches all shots from one unit. Nothing can spill over to the targeted unit because all shooting from the shooter happens at the exact same time. So a plascan blast and three lascans target a Guard squad under the shield. You get two lascan hits and three plascan hits. You then resolve 2 Str9 shots and 3 Str7 shots against the Void Shield. No wounds are allocated to the Guard squad.

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Liverpool

 liturgies of blood wrote:
However my point was that the generator is a model
The generator is terrain, it lacks a Unit type, so is not a model.

And Shooting Attacks go from unit to shield, the generator itself never gets hit (unless it was the target, potentially) so the generator itself has no bearing at all in resolving the attack.
   
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Ireland

Elric, I agree but for one part. The TO ruled (and I agree) that a blast hitting something with armour doesn't generate extra hits just one.
Since it says shooting attack and target not just hits I agreed with him and it ruined my army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 grendel083 wrote:
 liturgies of blood wrote:
However my point was that the generator is a model
The generator is terrain, it lacks a Unit type, so is not a model.

And Shooting Attacks go from unit to shield, the generator itself never gets hit (unless it was the target, potentially) so the generator itself has no bearing at all in resolving the attack.

Fine, model is the wrong word but since you can shoot certain pieces of terrain and the rules specifically say that the hit is resolved against something with armour 12 I don't see the issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:04:22


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
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So a shooting attack with ten hits only generates one hit? Where are you going permission to break the blast rules from! Page and para stating you recalculate the number of hits

Does an autocannon on,y generate one hit max? What about a punisher?
   
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Vanished Completely

The issue is simple:
Hits are generated, using Blast Makers, based on a number of Models under said marker. Should the shot be transferred before the number of Hits are calculated, ignoring that the Rule requires at least one Hit to be confirmed before it can trigger, then we enter a Black Hole! We simply have no method to confirm how many Hits are being generated, something vital to finishing a Shooting Sequence. There is no instructions informing us to treat the Shield as a single Model for this purpose, there is no instruction telling us to move the Marker over the Generator and calculate from there, and it is outright impossible to place it over top of the Projected Shield which has no physical representation on the table because it is a Special Rule and not even terrain.

In short:
Without calculating the Hits first, we have no way to proceed through the rest of the Shooting Sequence regardless of whom it is being resolved against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:16:05


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Cincinnati, Ohio

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So a shooting attack with ten hits only generates one hit? Where are you going permission to break the blast rules from! Page and para stating you recalculate the number of hits

Does an autocannon on,y generate one hit max? What about a punisher?
No, all the hits from the targeted squad are transferred to the void shield. You then roll to pen on the VS, until the shield goes down. Any extra hits don't go to the squad since via the special rule the shield takes the hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So 10 from the autocannon roll to penetrate the AV12 VS. By math you should 1 pen. At that point the shield would go down, with any extra hits not going to the squad.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:41:03


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Ireland

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So a shooting attack with ten hits only generates one hit? Where are you going permission to break the blast rules from! Page and para stating you recalculate the number of hits

Does an autocannon on,y generate one hit max? What about a punisher?


The void shield rules say that the shooting attack is transferred, the view was that a blast against armour only generates one hit. An autocannon generates two hits as it has 2 shouts etc.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
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1500+
2000+

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Vanished Completely

Now if only we had instructions informing us that a Shooting Attack from a Blast Marker doesn't follow the normal method of Generating Hits for Blast Markers, and instead only Counts As one Hit after being transferred to a Projected Blast Shield.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 23:56:34


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Liverpool

 liturgies of blood wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So a shooting attack with ten hits only generates one hit? Where are you going permission to break the blast rules from! Page and para stating you recalculate the number of hits

Does an autocannon on,y generate one hit max? What about a punisher?


The void shield rules say that the shooting attack is transferred, the view was that a blast against armour only generates one hit. An autocannon generates two hits as it has 2 shouts etc.
A single shot against a single target can potentially generate more that one hit.

The 1 shot = 1 hit theory has no rules support, and there are examples of weapons that disprove this theory (without the need to specify).
   
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I hate this thing quite a lot because of this conundrum. too fething confusing for fun games.

Anyways, the club members and manager (who said asking the internet is stupid x-x) says that it generates hits only against the shield. so i'm stuck there.


further query. Im going to be running raptors for a while with Issodan. He has the rules Isolate, Infiltrate Destroy which after scout, the targeted unit or monsterous creature wounded with D6+3 wounds against infantry and D3 haywire against the unit. It originates from the closest unit.

Say I do this to a marine squad within 12" of a void shield. is the squad wounded D6+3 times, or does the shield take haywire hits?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 01:25:30


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 liturgies of blood wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So a shooting attack with ten hits only generates one hit? Where are you going permission to break the blast rules from! Page and para stating you recalculate the number of hits

Does an autocannon on,y generate one hit max? What about a punisher?


The void shield rules say that the shooting attack is transferred, the view was that a blast against armour only generates one hit. An autocannon generates two hits as it has 2 shouts etc.


Yes, and th shooting attack has 10 hits associated with it. What about an Rvarna generating 4 hits against armour? The position played there has no rules support. It in fact explicitly breaks rules.

A tesla weapon that only fires one shot can generate 3 hits. 1 "shooting attack" = 1 hit is wrong

Ace101 - have you read the part in the VS rules where only when a VS is up do you resolve the hit against the shield, meaning as you cannot transfer *all* hits across - as fast dice rolling cannot work - any excess go bak to the unit.
   
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ooooo this thread again!

I'm going to get my popcorn, link my very useful, fully rules backed up post and link to the thread and sit back.

Here is the thread

p6 and 33 of the BRB concerning blast/template weapons: these cause a number of hits = to the models under the template after scatter, you roll for scatter in lieu of rolling to hit.

p69 beam weapons: these cause a hit = to the number of models underneath the invisible line between 2 points, this has since been FAQ'd to state the line is 1" in width.

p31 Strong Hold Assault: Projected void shields:

this is the crux of the matter, the summery as to do otherwise breaks the rules of the forum:

a shield is considered AV12

a shooting attack originating outside of 12" from the generator on a unit that is within 12" of the generator will hit a shield instead of the targeted unit.

Shooting Phase: BRB p12: 5 step process to a shooting attack: nomination of a unit to shoot, choosing a target, rolling to hit, rolling to wound/rolling to penetrate (added later in the vehicle section on p73/74), allocating wounds & removing casualties/resolving vehicle damage.


conclusion:


the void shield cannot be hit instead until the rolls to hit have been made, it is too late at that point to reduce the number of hits that have been generated by any weapon of any type as they have already been rolled for/calculated, blast/beam/template weapons replace the rolling to hit part with placing a template/scattering a template/drawing an invisible line between two points to work out how many have hit just like an assault 20 weapon rolls 20 dice to see how many out of 20 have hit. the number of hits cannot be effected once they have been resolved and void shields do not allow a recalculation of those hits.


*edit to fix link

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 11:33:10


 
   
 
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