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 Clefty wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Oh! No, I mean I didn't see what the traits where. The hyperlink labeled Chaos Marine traits wasn't working for me.

oh.... I got nothing. Nothing in the server reports about any kind of problem. You should have been able to pull it up no problem.

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

I do play hh and now it's quickly outpacing my 40k interest simply due to being able to see the love and attention that fw has put into the legions, chaos dex was copy pasted and shat out in what looks like a few hours so they could work on the space marine dex that actually had some thought put into it.

Like I said before it will take some rather radical changes to getthe chaos dex out of the toilet.

 Formosa wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

I do play hh and now it's quickly outpacing my 40k interest simply due to being able to see the love and attention that fw has put into the legions, chaos dex was copy pasted and shat out in what looks like a few hours so they could work on the space marine dex that actually had some thought put into it.

Like I said before it will take some rather radical changes to getthe chaos dex out of the toilet.

Changing the force org for the codex, re-building half the units from the ground up, adding several units, and revamping a majority of the remaining units in addition to building 2 entire new books doesn't count as radical? What are you expecting?

Not a snipe at you but your not re building units from the ground up, your making a renegade codex as a full on chaos book and no renegades, renegades don't have full on plague marines, khorne bezerkers, noise marines and no rubric marines at all.

Where are all the space marine vehicles, land speeders, storm shields, thunder hammers, grav weapons, imperial guard, abhumans, basically where are all the things that distinguish renegades from chaos space marines, hell they should even have chapter tactics if you want to go into enough detail and trust players to be able to have individual units with different chapter tactics.

Renegades are not chaos space marines, they are space marines who are independent from the imperium and may be on the path of chaos, so chaos renegades should be a mix of space marine and chaos marine equipment, no deamons, no hellbrutes (I know functionally they are the same, but names are important) limited access to both space marine and chaos armoury, access to imperial guard as battle brothers (traitor guard as allies or in the codex).

That's just the renegade book.

IGNORE THIS POST

I hit the post button too early sorry it didn't make sense bud

 Formosa wrote:
Not a snipe at you but your not re building units from the ground up, your making a renegade codex as a full on chaos book and no renegades, renegades don't have full on plague marines, khorne bezerkers, noise marines and no rubric marines at all.

Where are all the space marine vehicles, land speeders, storm shields, thunder hammers, grav weapons, imperial guard, abhumans, basically where are all the things that distinguish renegades from chaos space marines, hell they should even have chapter tactics if you want to go into enough detail and trust players to be able to have individual units with different chapter tactics.

Renegades are not chaos space marines, they are space marines who are independent from the imperium and may be on the path of chaos, so chaos renegades should be a mix of space marine and chaos marine equipment, no deamons, no hellbrutes (I know functionally they are the same, but names are important) limited access to both space marine and chaos armoury, access to imperial guard as battle brothers (traitor guard as allies or in the codex).

That's just the renegade book.

okay, so let me get this straight:

You're not looking for a Chaos Renegades books, IE: a book that represents a cross sections of the Traitor Space Marines, Traitor Legion groups, Warbands, Traitor Guardsman, Mutants, and dejected scum that will march under the Chaos banner. But rather you want Codex: Space Marines with spikes, combined with Codex: Astra Militarium with dark red paint AND you want everything else thats ever been tossed in under the title of "Chaos" in the book.

No, I'm sorry. I can not accomplish that. You are talking about a book that would be monstrously huge with dozens of rules regarding army comp and yet would turn out to just be a Copy and paste with some color changes of the Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Astra Militarium. I understand what you are saying about your view of Chaos Renegades, and in a certain particular light I can agree with you on an object example basis. Have their been Storm Shield+Thunder hammer equipped Terminators that have turned traitor? Probably. Do I feel that that means the Chaos terminators should have Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields? No. I don't agree with the belief of "Space Marines have [insert name] so Chaos should have it." On a story basis, sure. You want to have a group of Chaos Terminators with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers that are playing Anvil to their Land Speeder support team, go for it. ADB did it with the Nightlords series. More power to him. Do I feel that such a point justifies putting those options in the army list? No. I do not. Codex:Chaos Space Marines has needed to fight off this concept of "We're just Space Marines with spikes" for decades and they've managed to accomplish that point.

And then on top of that, you're going to ignore everything I have already laid out and say I'm not going to do something even though I have said I am going to do something? Seriously, have you even looked at the website I set up? More specifically the list of units under Chaos Renegades? I'll draw your attention to 2 entries:

Outcasts

Traitor Militarium platoon

Now I will absolutely admit I haven't had a chance to actually post any information about those two units, but just from the name and the pictures on their respective pages, what do you think those units are?

You got me all wrong as I said it's not YOU that I'm sniping at, this is what I expect from gw, it's a radical change to which I'm referring, then they do a chaos legions book to cover them specifically, for traitor guard it's easy just add chaos orders and warlords traits and allow marks on hq's only.

Just to be clear I'm not expecting you to do this, I have seen your site and understand your design aesthetic (mostly).

In regards to renegades, adb did chaos legion renegades not chapter so yes there is a distinct difference, chapter renegades DO have there equipment still, they DO have storm shield, land raiders etc.
There is no reason what so ever that when a chapter or unit goes rogue that suddenly all the chapters arsenal just vanishes, over years etc they will be lost maybe but that's then either a dead chapter (so not playable) or have become full on chaos marines and are being supplied by chaos forces and would then gain that equipment.

I'm now working on my own book (dark angels) and will keep checking in on your progress, wish you the best of luck man.

 Formosa wrote:
You got me all wrong as I said it's not YOU that I'm sniping at, this is what I expect from gw, it's a radical change to which I'm referring, then they do a chaos legions book to cover them specifically, for traitor guard it's easy just add chaos orders and warlords traits and allow marks on hq's only.

Just to be clear I'm not expecting you to do this, I have seen your site and understand your design aesthetic (mostly).

In regards to renegades, adb did chaos legion renegades not chapter so yes there is a distinct difference, chapter renegades DO have there equipment still, they DO have storm shield, land raiders etc.
There is no reason what so ever that when a chapter or unit goes rogue that suddenly all the chapters arsenal just vanishes, over years etc they will be lost maybe but that's then either a dead chapter (so not playable) or have become full on chaos marines and are being supplied by chaos forces and would then gain that equipment.

I'm now working on my own book (dark angels) and will keep checking in on your progress, wish you the best of luck man.

So now it's not about me, it's about GW?

As for the reference to ADB's Night Lords I was actually referring to Talos and First Claw using assault cannon armed Terminator suits.

Yeah you asked what radical changes were needed so I answered, and yep the assault canon and terminator suits came from salamanders that they were stolen from, didn't miraculously turn into a reaper autocannon as soon as they repainted the armour.though eh? In case you misread thet btw it is a joke.

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah you asked what radical changes were needed so I answered, and yep the assault canon and terminator suits came from salamanders that they were stolen from, didn't miraculously turn into a reaper autocannon as soon as they repainted the armour.though eh? In case you misread thet btw it is a joke.

Yes I got the joke. As for the radical changes point, you originally said

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

No where in there did you reference GW, but me. So... yeah.

Did you start said problems

"I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed"

Continuing the problems others started, sounds like the blame is with gw, your just continuing them, I even went on to say

"but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable."

Sounds like I'm wishing you luck with the changes your making,but not holding much hope, seen alot of chaos fan books over the years, none have managed yet, lack of hope right there.

If you take comments out of context and read only what you want to then your going to have some issues on a forum where context can be lost due to the medium, look for negativity and you will get negativity, above was a positive statement you took negatively.

The crux of the matter seems to be that you have a vision in mind for the renegades book but so far all you are doing is making the current chaos space marines book with a few tweaks, you seem (obviously I can't be certain of this) to be ignoring alot of the fluff on renegades and as I have repeatedly reminded you that these things exist and should be representable on the table, renegades is the simplist of the chaos factions to do as they quite literally are space marines with marks that are just starting along the path to being full blown chaos space marines, if you want to represent them at the end of the path then chaos space marines is what your looking for not renegades, what I suggest is a thread on the background forum and see what others say too.

If you want me to explain myself further I'm happy to

 Formosa wrote:
Did you start said problems

"I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed"

Continuing the problems others started, sounds like the blame is with gw, your just continuing them, I even went on to say

"but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable."

Sounds like I'm wishing you luck with the changes your making,but not holding much hope, seen alot of chaos fan books over the years, none have managed yet, lack of hope right there.

If you take comments out of context and read only what you want to then your going to have some issues on a forum where context can be lost due to the medium, look for negativity and you will get negativity, above was a positive statement you took negatively.

The crux of the matter seems to be that you have a vision in mind for the renegades book but so far all you are doing is making the current chaos space marines book with a few tweaks, you seem (obviously I can't be certain of this) to be ignoring alot of the fluff on renegades and as I have repeatedly reminded you that these things exist and should be representable on the table, renegades is the simplist of the chaos factions to do as they quite literally are space marines with marks that are just starting along the path to being full blown chaos space marines, if you want to represent them at the end of the path then chaos space marines is what your looking for not renegades, what I suggest is a thread on the background forum and see what others say too.

If you want me to explain myself further I'm happy to

I always welcome ideas, information and suggestions. There are 2 caveats to that statement I must add because I've been shoved this particular rabbit hole too many times already.
1) Just because you have made the suggestion, presented the idea, or provided the information, there is no expectation that said information, suggestion, or idea will be used in the form as you have presented it.
2) names are just names. Just because a group of solders with lasguns are called "Planetary Defense teams" and not an Astra Militarium Platoon does not mean that there needs to be an Astra Militarium platoon army entry, and a Planetary defense team army entry if there is no discernible in-game difference. (Yes, I am referring to the "There should be both helbrutes and dreadnoughts' debate but it extends beyond that example).

Are Heretics any different than Cultists? If so then we could make a unit for them.

 marrowick wrote:
Are Heretics any different than Cultists? If so then we could make a unit for them.

you're asking about 2 very vague and undefined concepts. are they different? *shrugs* Maybe. Maybe not. Could they be? Sure. My prior statement about names not mattering is about reducing redundancy. The best example I can provide is if you look at the HelBrute page, Give the HelBrute the Hell Forged Warrior upgrade. So now it's 120 pts, ignores crew shaken and crew stunned results, no longer rolls on the Crazed table, is WS 5 BS 5 S 6 Front Armor 12, Side armor 12, Rear Armor 10, Initiative 4, with 2 attacks base with 3 hull points.

Compared to a Venerable Dreadnought, which is 115 points which makes the opponent re-roll penetrating hits, is now WS 5, BS 5, S 5, Front armor 12, Side armor 12, Rear Armor 10, Initiative 4, with 2 attacks base and 3 hull points.

Is there a difference between the two? Sure. One ignores crew shaken/stunned results, the other forces a re-roll when a penetrating hit is made against it. Is that enough of a difference to have a HelBrute army enemy AND a Venerable Dreadnought entry in one book? I don't feel that it does. As we've seen others disagree with me. That is their choice. But as I'm the one who actually producing this series of books I do have the final say on what goes into the book.

Back to your Heretic : Cultist question, give me more then a word to compare against cultists and I can answer you. Right now, just going by the definition of Herectic:

her·e·tic: a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.

I would say... no. There's no appreciable difference between a cultist and a heretic.

If you feel otherwise, or think of a heretic as something different then what is described by that definition, post your thoughts and ideas. As I said previously, I always welcome ideas, information and suggestions.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
Are Heretics any different than Cultists? If so then we could make a unit for them.

you're asking about 2 very vague and ********* concepts. are they different? *shrugs* Maybe. Maybe not. Could they be? Sure. My prior statement about names not mattering is about reducing redundancy. The best example I can provide is if you look at the HelBrute page, Give the HelBrute the Hell Forged Warrior upgrade. So now it's 120 pts, ignores crew shaken and crew stunned results, no longer rolls on the Crazed table, is WS 5 BS 5 S 6 Front Armor 12, Side armor 12, Rear Armor 10, Initiative 4, with 2 attacks base with 3 hull points.

Compared to a Venerable Dreadnought, which is 115 points which makes the opponent re-roll penetrating hits, is not WS 5, BS 5, S 5, Front armor 12, Side armor 12, Rear Armor 10, Initiative 4, with 2 attacks base and 3 hull points.

Is there a difference between the two? Sure. One ignores crew shaken/stunned results, the other forces a re-roll when a penetrating hit is made against it. Is that enough of a difference to have a HelBrute army enemy AND a Venerable Dreadnought entry in one book? I don't feel that it does. As we've seen others disagree with me. That is their choice. But as I'm the one who actually producing this series of books I do have the final say on what goes into the book.

Back to your Heretic : Cultist question, give me more then a word to compare against cultists and I can answer you. Right now, just going by the definition of Herectic:

her·e·tic: a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.

I would say... no. There's no appreciable difference between a cultist and a heretic.

If you feel otherwise, or think of a heretic as something different then what is described by that definition, post your thoughts and ideas. As I said previously, I always welcome ideas, information and suggestions.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I wasn't exactly sure what any difference (if any) was so I just thought I'd ask.

EDIT: Looking over the OP I noticed that the Khorne Berzerker has I5 and the Berzerker Champion has I4. Is that supposed to be the other way around?

 marrowick wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:


Yeah I get what you're saying. I wasn't exactly sure what any difference (if any) was so I just thought I'd ask.

EDIT: Looking over the OP I noticed that the Khorne Berzerker has I5 and the Berzerker Champion has I4. Is that supposed to be the other way around?

No, not supposed to be the other way around. But it is wrong all the same. Thanks for the catch. Spending 4-5 hours building the file makes it hard to do QC on them by myself.

Okay so was thinking on the Chaos Commander question again. Making hims a Chaplin style character didn't really seem to work so I went back to the drawing board to try and plot it out. I think I found the problem. The Chaos Lord is too under powered to make a lesser lord really viable. Imagine if the Space marine Captain was the top level non-named character option for the Space Marine Codex. Command wise, what is between a captain and Sergeant? Yeah, not much. And any attempt to make something that fits in that space either winds up too much like the Captain or too much like a over-hyped Sergeant. So... what's his point?

So what's the answer? Well, it's kind of a convoluted approach honestly. First thing was to beef up the Chaos Lord to something a bit more substantial, making him more on part with a Space Marine Chapter Master. The big difference between a Chapter Master and a Captain is the Orbital bombardment. Yeah, the extra wound and attack are nice. But let's be honest, if you're spending the extra 40 points you want that Orbital bombardment. So what can a Chaos Lord have to match that? Well just give him an Orbital Bombardment ability, right? Well, it's not a bad suggestion, but what does Orbital Bombardment have to do with Khorne? Well I could just call it a Blood Explosion. If my name was Matt Ward and I was writing the Blood Angles codex maybe. And what about Nurgle? Eh just call it a Plague Strike, and that'll sit right up there next to the Wolf Claws (lightning claws) in terms of good background thoughts. And honestly, the idea of just giving the Chaos Lord an Orbital bombardment just seems a bit too lazy in terms of design work, but it is justifiable to give the Lord orbital bombardment because just because he turns traitor doesn't mean he looses command of the assets that allowed him to under take that ability. But then again, not all "Chaos Lords" have those assets. So make it a purchasable upgrade?

Perhaps, but that sounds like I'm getting further down on a potentially slippery slop. Then I hit on an idea: Make a series of abilities that are tied to the respective mark, or lack of lark, the Lord has. Want Orbital bombardment? Don't take a mark on your Chaos Lord. It's that simple. But I also crafted a series of 5 other abilities for the other Marks of Chaos. You don't pay for them beyond the cost of buying the lord and the respective mark. So what kinds of abilities did I make for each mark? Well here's a break down of them:

Unmarked: Orbital Bombardment. 'Nuff Said.
Mark of Chaos Undivided: You get to take a unit (that is 10 models or less) that is deep striking, and bring it on with 6" of your lord with out scatter AND it is able to launch an assault that turn.
Mark of Nurgle: You get to make one piece of terrain dangerous to anything that isn't a flyer. Oh, and no you do NOT get to auto-pass dangerous terrain checks on this piece of terrain. If you are not a flyer and you move into/over this piece of terrain, you must take a dangerous terrain test.
Mark of Khorne: Hey I'm in a challange and I inflicted 3 unsaved wounds. Guess what? I get to make 3 more attacks. Oh you didn't save 2 of them? I get to make 2 more attacks. Oh wow, you failed to save both of those wounds? I get to make 2 more attacks.
Mark of Tzeentch: Select an enemy character. If the Lord attacks that character, he must re-roll all successful saves.
mark of Slaanesh: I inflicted a wound in close combat that you didn't save. Make a leadership check. Oh you failed? Your WS, BS, and I are reduced to 1, until the end of the next turn.

All of these are one-use abilities so there's that limit. I've tried to make all of the abilities actual usable but not over powering in their own right. I'm not totally sold on all of the individual abilities, but I do feel very strongly that the mark aligned abilities is the right direction to move in.

So what does all of this have to do with the Chaos Commander?

Well, now I have a place to put the Chaos Commander, command structure wise. He's more akin to a captain. So, that's what I've done.See the pages below.

Chaos Lord (Full ress 2 page spread)


Chaos Commander (Full ress 2 page spread)


Favor of the Gods Armory page (Full ress image) This is the page that details the respective abilities the Lord would have access to based on their Mark or lack of one.

I like it. Is the Chaos Commander supposed to have 4 attacks though?

 marrowick wrote:
I like it. Is the Chaos Commander supposed to have 4 attacks though?

Yup.

What was wrong with the old chaos codex? I like the creative thought and I can only imagine the time that must have gone into this, but I'm not entirely convinced about whether it's necessary. A lot of what you were saying about the old chaos codex isn't strictly true, and everything in it is perfectly viable the way it is. Even possessed, mutilators and warp talons are useful if the player is a cunning strategist or has an inordinate amount of luck with deep strike rolls or transports. I do not see the requirement for a chaos commander, which is basically the chaos Lord as he is now. A chaos lord is meant to be the equivalent of a SM captain, or thereabouts, and I think 4 wounds is a little OTT. I honestly think the stuff you have created is first rate, but I wonder whether it would be playable. Usually when I play a 40k game its late at night, and all players are usually a little pissed, and complexity is difficult enough to spell at that point, let alone handle in an army. It seems to me that you are attempting, in the valiant struggle to put CSM on a similar footing with SM, but the fundamental problem is that they're just not the same.
Have you ever played Dawn of War? The original PC game, in which the only thing CSM and SM had in common was the CSM squad. May I make a suggestion? Don't try to make them equal to SM, make them something else entirely.

Proposal, Lords Champions

WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 ld10 Sv +3 (infantry)
Wargear
Bolter
Bolt pistol
Cc weapon
Power armor
30ppm
Special rules
Can take most of the chaos lords wargear including one item artifact, and a single mastery lvl to become psykers. The unit can split like a necron royal court and each of the lords chosen can attach itself to any squad it desires.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
What was wrong with the old chaos codex? I like the creative thought and I can only imagine the time that must have gone into this, but I'm not entirely convinced about whether it's necessary. A lot of what you were saying about the old chaos codex isn't strictly true, and everything in it is perfectly viable the way it is. Even possessed, mutilators and warp talons are useful if the player is a cunning strategist or has an inordinate amount of luck with deep strike rolls or transports. I do not see the requirement for a chaos commander, which is basically the chaos Lord as he is now. A chaos lord is meant to be the equivalent of a SM captain, or thereabouts, and I think 4 wounds is a little OTT. I honestly think the stuff you have created is first rate, but I wonder whether it would be playable. Usually when I play a 40k game its late at night, and all players are usually a little pissed, and complexity is difficult enough to spell at that point, let alone handle in an army. It seems to me that you are attempting, in the valiant struggle to put CSM on a similar footing with SM, but the fundamental problem is that they're just not the same.
Have you ever played Dawn of War? The original PC game, in which the only thing CSM and SM had in common was the CSM squad. May I make a suggestion? Don't try to make them equal to SM, make them something else entirely.

Wow so much wrong here.

Warp talons don't work due to lack of frags for starters.

Chaos lords are not captains or equivalent, they are better pure and simple but due to poor codex writing and codex creep chapter masters are better in every way, this is wrong as lords in the fluff eat chapter masters for breakfast (khorne Lord vs azrael for example), even kharne the hardest of the hard cc Lord gets slapped by a nameless chapter master on the tt.

Almost nothing in the current codex is viable due to point sinks and overcosted wargear, bike are good, helldrake is still excellent, obits are good, spawn are ok and nurgle marines, that's it.

I agree don't make them equal to codex marines, there supposed to be better.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
What was wrong with the old chaos codex? I like the creative thought and I can only imagine the time that must have gone into this, but I'm not entirely convinced about whether it's necessary. A lot of what you were saying about the old chaos codex isn't strictly true, and everything in it is perfectly viable the way it is. Even possessed, mutilators and warp talons are useful if the player is a cunning strategist or has an inordinate amount of luck with deep strike rolls or transports. I do not see the requirement for a chaos commander, which is basically the chaos Lord as he is now. A chaos lord is meant to be the equivalent of a SM captain, or thereabouts, and I think 4 wounds is a little OTT. I honestly think the stuff you have created is first rate, but I wonder whether it would be playable. Usually when I play a 40k game its late at night, and all players are usually a little pissed, and complexity is difficult enough to spell at that point, let alone handle in an army. It seems to me that you are attempting, in the valiant struggle to put CSM on a similar footing with SM, but the fundamental problem is that they're just not the same.
Have you ever played Dawn of War? The original PC game, in which the only thing CSM and SM had in common was the CSM squad. May I make a suggestion? Don't try to make them equal to SM, make them something else entirely.

I think you mis-understand my intentions, as well as the statements. I'm not trying to make Codex: Chaos Space Marines the same as Codex: Space Marines, I'm trying to replace Codex: Chaos Space Marines with three separate books. As it stands now, Codex: Chaos Space Marines is trying, and failing, to be representative of the Traitor Legions (Dudes who have been fighting for the better part of 10,000 years or have basically been born in the eye of terror and have been fighting all their lives) the assortment of trash and wash off from.... well everything else in the galaxy, the more recent deserters, the perverse cults, the hedonists, the rebels, the excommunicated priests, the herectics who believe the emperor is actually dead, the inquisitors who have been forced out because the emperor isn't dead, the Astra Militarium regiments who believe the emperor was the greatest man to have ever lived, the Commisars who believe that they answer to the hierarchy of the emperor himself, the Mechanicus who are branded as heriteks because they dared to attempt something that isn't listed on the stc, the... well the list goes on. Oh, and it's also meant to represent the Dark Adeptus, and the Cult Armies. And it's doing it poorly. The single book is just over worked and under-developed for what it's trying to deliver.

It's like imagine if we didn't have Codex: Blood Angels or Codex: Space Wolves. We just had codex: Space marines, and Codex space marines was intended to represent the 6 flavors of regular Space Marines, AND Blood Angels AND Space Wolves. That's what Codex: Chaos Space marines is at this point.

we've heard lots of
"Oh you can represent the legions. Just take Abaddon as your Warlord and you take Chosen as troops. That'll be your legion troops."
and
"Sure You can build a Dark Mech army. Take a Warp Smith HQ, and fill up your Fast attack with HelDrakes, and your heavy support with Forge Fiends, mauler fiends and Defilers."
and
"Well you have the ability to run cult armies. Just take a lord with [insert mark name] and then you can take the [insert matching cult troop] as troops."
and
"Sure you can build a traitor guard army out of the book. Just say your commander is in power armor and take lots of cultists. Those will be your traitor guard."
trying to defend the book. And sure, they're all true. But they don't address the problems with the book. The book is trying to be so many things at once, it's really doing nothing and is frankly just bland. The only difference between a fully kitted Khorne Berzerker unit and a CSM unit thats been kitted out for close combat is... the berserk hit on a 3 instead of a 4, most of the time. Thousand Sons... well they're crap.

My apologies, I misunderstood. A Lost and the Damned type codex then? Good luck with that, it'll make renegade asrmies feel a tiny bit more official rather than loafing off the imperial guard codex all the time.
There's another thought: if you are reconstructing the codex, could you do up some of the chaos artefacts. I've only ever found the mace or the axe of hong-kong fury to be any good, and perhaps similar artefacts to be used in the other forces would be nice.

Spawn are ok/good due to low cost

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Ok, fair point; warp talons are bad, I've never had much luck with them. But I refuse to believe that the points cost for wargear and the like are unreasonable. And how are spawn ok? The only things I've ever found to be completely redundant in the 'dex are warp talons, mutilators, spawn and possibly cultists without autoguns. I see what you mean about the chaos lords, but then if you really want something better, why not weigh in with a daemon prince? Sure they are expensive, but equipped with the black mace, power armour, maybe wings and one or two mastery levels they can easily earn their points cost back, at least they have in my experience.
There's another thought: if you are reconstructing the codex, could you do up some of the chaos artefacts. I've only ever found the mace or the axe of hong-kong fury to be any good.

*sigh*

Okay let me spell this out.

I am not rebuilding Codex: Chaos Space marines. Yes, that was my original intent but as I got more into the project I came to realize the problems I have previously laid out and so set my course to a different direction. Rather then rebuilding Codex: Chaos Space Marines I am working to replace it with a series of 3 books as follows:
(taken directly from the website I set up for this project)
Codex: Chaos Renegades will be focused largely on the patch worked war bands of various troops that have turned traitor following the heresy; the random Marine who grew tired of endless wars that saw no progress, the occasional squad that was forgotten about and the rare company that was lead to treachery by its officers, the Astra Militarum regiments who have lost cohesion and become traitor guard, and the mutants and hell spawn that spew forth from the warp. These are NOT the legions. Let me say that again, Chaos Renegades are NOT legions. Will the legions be presented and talked about in this book? Yes they will. Will you be able to build a legion army out of this book? By design, no you will not be. But if you like the army list in this book and want to paint your Chaos Space Marines blue with lightning bolts and call them Night Lords, you absolutely may. What this book is intended to allow you to build is a Chaos Renegades army composed of hard hitting elite Space Marines backed by hordes of mutants and commanded by powerful Chaos Lords.

Codex: Chaos Legions will be the book that has the Legions that people have been demanding for years. Here is where it is intended that you will be able to build an Iron Warriors Grand Company, or a Night Lord Terror legion. Armies of legionaries that honed their skills at the height of the crusade that are backed by the warp altered engines of war that took part in the siege of terra. Ancient and honored warriors march to war alongside ancient masters of war! Some of them have become dedicated to the Gods of Chaos and now go to war alongside those that were once considered the heroes of the Imperium, bound to obey the orders of centuries old commanders trained by the Primarchs themselves.

Codex: Books of Chaos: This is the Cult list builder. You want Berzerker Dreadnoughts, and Sonic weapon armed predators backed up by powerful magic wielders? Here is where I intend to build the book to accomplish those lists.


So, will there be new artefacts? Oh good god all mighty yes. Across 3 books no less. Will there be new units? Yep. But these things take time. I don't have a group of dedicated play testers I can go to every 3 days and say "Hey, build a list with Unit X in it. I need to see how it interacts with other stuff". I'm hoping to have Codex: Chaos Renegades finished by the end of August and then I'll focus on Codex: Chaos Legions with some hope to have that out by the end of the year and then I'll be able to focus on Codex: Books of Chaos.

Spawn are ok/good due to low cost, high speed and a fair number of wounds.

Update: 6/4/13

- I've updated the website for the project with a form submission system for the purposes of submitting battle reports. If you have a report typed up in word or whatever, you can submit the file itself. If not you can fill out the form on the website for the battle report.

I like the Chaos Lord/Chaos Commander distinction, allows for a cheap HQ choice or a tough HQ capable of matching a chapter master. You got any thoughts for special issue wargear or relics to help match stuff like the shield eternal and burning blade? Personally I would like to see generic daemon weapons back, 1D6 attacks, two handed, AP 2, with bonuses depending on their God.