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Buttons wrote:
I like the Chaos Lord/Chaos Commander distinction, allows for a cheap HQ choice or a tough HQ capable of matching a chapter master. You got any thoughts for special issue wargear or relics to help match stuff like the shield eternal and burning blade? Personally I would like to see generic daemon weapons back, 1D6 attacks, two handed, AP 2, with bonuses depending on their God.

Do I have thoughts on that? Yes. Are those thoughts in any way shape or form coherent enough to show at the moment? No, not so much. They're little more then one sentence random thoughts in a word document right now with item names like "Big ass evil sword" and "The shield does the work".

Not sure if intentionally omitted, but why does the chaos lord not have access to fleshmetal, yet chosen do?

Also, if you want I've already made up some cult terminators for you to go over if you want them.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Not sure if intentionally omitted, but why does the chaos lord not have access to fleshmetal, yet chosen do?

Also, if you want I've already made up some cult terminators for you to go over if you want them.

because the Flesh metal armor upgrade is going to be included under a list of options that HQ units have access to. The Chosen are a specific exception to this so they get the actual option. The only catch is as I mentioned I have a lot of ideas for special wargear so I want to get that a bit more polish up first and figure out whats going where and all that fun stuff.

Maverike_prime wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Not sure if intentionally omitted, but why does the chaos lord not have access to fleshmetal, yet chosen do?

Also, if you want I've already made up some cult terminators for you to go over if you want them.

because the Flesh metal armor upgrade is going to be included under a list of options that HQ units have access to. The Chosen are a specific exception to this so they get the actual option. The only catch is as I mentioned I have a lot of ideas for special wargear so I want to get that a bit more polish up first and figure out whats going where and all that fun stuff.

Whats your plan for the Chaos Legions in terms of unit sizes? Will they be similar to the Pre-Heresy Legions by chance?

 Clefty wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Not sure if intentionally omitted, but why does the chaos lord not have access to fleshmetal, yet chosen do?

Also, if you want I've already made up some cult terminators for you to go over if you want them.

because the Flesh metal armor upgrade is going to be included under a list of options that HQ units have access to. The Chosen are a specific exception to this so they get the actual option. The only catch is as I mentioned I have a lot of ideas for special wargear so I want to get that a bit more polish up first and figure out whats going where and all that fun stuff.

Whats your plan for the Chaos Legions in terms of unit sizes? Will they be similar to the Pre-Heresy Legions by chance?

I only have the vaguest plans for Chaos legions at the moment. I know I'm going to be starting from the Horus Heresy books, but I need to build in 10,000 years worth of changes and adaptations. And there's attrition to add into that as well. Sure the Black Legion was able to field detachments with squads numbering 50 marines 10,000 years ago. But some of those marines have been killed off. There's no actual way to replace those marines. They can make more marines, but they're not the same as the original legionares. So how different would they be? I'm not sure yet. The Chaos Legions is the book I have the least basis to work from out of these three and is going to take the most work because of that. If you have a thought on it, feel free to post it on the website or here on the thread.

The biggest thing in my opinion, is just exactly where their Legion specific traits will stand in comparison to Legiones Astartes and Chapter Tactics.

The next topic in my mind is, are the Chaos Legions better than they where pre heresy, and if so, how much better are they?


Legionnaire 10pts
WS-4 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-1 I-4 A-1 Ld-8
Wargear: Power Armor, Bolter

Special Rules: War Without End: Effects that would normally only take place on a 6+, now occur on a 5+ (Army wide special rule that emphasizes that everyone really is, just a little bit better.)

Options: (I'm thinking there should be tons of options for marks, banners, Legion specific rules, ect)

 Clefty wrote:
The biggest thing in my opinion, is just exactly where their Legion specific traits will stand in comparison to Legiones Astartes and Chapter Tactics.

The next topic in my mind is, are the Chaos Legions better than they where pre heresy, and if so, how much better are they?

Options: (I'm thinking there should be tons of options for marks, banners, Legion specific rules, ect)

I would actually disagree with there being lots of options for marks and banners and such. Legion specific options, sure I can get behind that. But of the three books, Chaos Legions will have the fewest "Chaos god linked" items. Here's this might help explain my view a bit better. A little visual reference.



Books of Chaos are were there's going to be all the really big Chaos Daemons stuff will be; the banners, the marks, the daemon guns, the blades with the imbedded daemons, all that fun stuff. Chaos Legions is where the Space Marines materials come from. This is where you'll find the Night Lords, The land Raider squadrons, the tactical detachments from the Iron Warriors, all that heavy hitting space marine stuff. And then there's Chaos Renegades. This is the "Everything else plus some from Column A and Column B" army. It's got the Space marines stuff, but not as much as Chaos Legions. It's got the Daemon stuff, but not as much as Books of Chaos. and it's got the Dark Mechanicus and the Traitor Guard. Sure, there is some the other two, but look at how little Books of Chaos over laps with Chaos Legions. Barely. So will Chaos Legions have some of the Chaos stuff? Sure. But it's going to be less then what you're seeing in Chaos Renegades.

They should still be capable of obtaining Marks, Icons and Daemon Weapons. In my mind, the Legions fell for power more so than daddy problems, they very clearly obtained gifts from the Chaos gods, gifts so powerful they haven't been seen since. Take the Gal Vorbak for instance, subsequent generations where weaker than their predecessors, the Rampager Squads of the World Eaters are far more powerful than modern Khorn Berzerkers.

The Chaos Gods where quite Ham-Fisted initially, giving all the Legions more or less what they wanted and now the Chaos Renegades rely on shoddy equipment mixed with warp magic.

I would put forth the notion that the Books of Chaos should be in the middle, with Chaos Renegades and Chaos Legions being the ones with little to nothing in common. Besides, the only thing that makes these forces more than just marines with spikes on them is the Gods and how they organize themselves.

 Clefty wrote:
They should still be capable of obtaining Marks, Icons and Daemon Weapons. In my mind, the Legions fell for power more so than daddy problems, they very clearly obtained gifts from the Chaos gods, gifts so powerful they haven't been seen since. Take the Gal Vorbak for instance, subsequent generations where weaker than their predecessors, the Rampager Squads of the World Eaters are far more powerful than modern Khorn Berzerkers.

The Chaos Gods where quite Ham-Fisted initially, giving all the Legions more or less what they wanted and now the Chaos Renegades rely on shoddy equipment mixed with warp magic.

I would put forth the notion that the Books of Chaos should be in the middle, with Chaos Renegades and Chaos Legions being the ones with little to nothing in common. Besides, the only thing that makes these forces more than just marines with spikes on them is the Gods and how they organize themselves.

you're honestly going to try and tell me that the Chaos Legions should have more daemonic and Chaotic abilities then the army that is literally 100% built around the concept? Books are Chaos is the book where I intend to have the ability to field THE Gal Vorbak. Not to mention having the ability to have Daemonic Cult Troops, Soul Grinders, and Sonic weaponry armed Daemon driven tanks squadrons. Really, you want Legions to have MORE then that? I mean I guess Legion can just have the Daemon rule across the board. Everything in it counts as a daemon.

That isn't my intention, the Legions need the cream of the crop in terms of WARGEAR. Demonic Wargear. Not demons, Warp influenced Wargear. NOT army wide demons, simply enhanced Praetor choices and such.

 Clefty wrote:
That isn't my intention, the Legions need the cream of the crop in terms of WARGEAR. Demonic Wargear. Not demons, Warp influenced Wargear. NOT army wide demons, simply enhanced Praetor choices and such.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Chaos Legions WILL have an extensive armoury, and there WILL be some daemonic abilities available to the army, and they will be the most powerful individual abilities out of the three books.

you're honestly going to try and tell me that the Chaos Legions should have more daemonic and Chaotic abilities then the army that is literally 100% built around the concept?

This is what my response was for.

We are on the same page now.

How powerful do the generic Chaos Legion HQs need to be? Above Chapter Master? Or at Captain level?

 Clefty wrote:

you're honestly going to try and tell me that the Chaos Legions should have more daemonic and Chaotic abilities then the army that is literally 100% built around the concept?

This is what my response was for.

We are on the same page now.

How powerful do the generic Chaos Legion HQs need to be? Above Chapter Master? Or at Captain level?

the Chaos Lords are equivalent to a Chapter master while a Commander is somewhere between a Chaplin and a Captain.

I'm all for making the Chaos Lord more beefy but some of the other options feel like this projects is moving closer to Codex:Space Marines+ namely the Chaos commander acting kind of like a Space marine captain(Although this parallel arguably already exists with the current Chaos Lord) and "My wrath shall mark the land" essentially being a Chapter Masters Orbital bombardment. This is all well and good if that's your desired vision for this project but maybe consider drawing fewer parallels between the two codex?

Having a cheaper HQ choice in the form of the Chaos commander is a good idea in and of itself especially given your proposed changes for a beefier more expensive chaos lord but perhaps there’s a better way to implement this unit while keeping him more distinct when compared to the Space marine captain. Other than him conferring fearless to a unit(I think the purposed unlock options are a great way to field a number of themed chaos forces so its fine) maybe include some sort of veteran tactics that he could confer at a certain points cost (Perhaps via special rules like hit and run or stealth and maybe fearless could even be one of them rather than having it base on the commander but keeping it base for the Chaos Lord) this would I feel work towards creating a very customisable HQ option that works to unlock a number of options for the chaos players army and to help them field distinctly themed armies whether they want to field a legion army or a chaos warband

As for "My wrath shall mark the land" perhaps just give it a different profile either to represent how the warp has mutated the ships weapons or to represent the more ancient weapons available during the heresy.
That said I like alot of the proposed changes you've got here and i'll probably try some of them out when I next get a chance to play a game just wanted to give some feedback.

 1000thSon wrote:
I'm all for making the Chaos Lord more beefy but some of the other options feel like this projects is moving closer to Codex:Space Marines+ namely the Chaos commander acting kind of like a Space marine captain(Although this parallel arguably already exists with the current Chaos Lord) and "My wrath shall mark the land" essentially being a Chapter Masters Orbital bombardment. This is all well and good if that's your desired vision for this project but maybe consider drawing fewer parallels between the two codex?

Having a cheaper HQ choice in the form of the Chaos commander is a good idea in and of itself especially given your proposed changes for a beefier more expensive chaos lord but perhaps there’s a better way to implement this unit while keeping him more distinct when compared to the Space marine captain. Other than him conferring fearless to a unit(I think the purposed unlock options are a great way to field a number of themed chaos forces so its fine) maybe include some sort of veteran tactics that he could confer at a certain points cost (Perhaps via special rules like hit and run or stealth and maybe fearless could even be one of them rather than having it base on the commander but keeping it base for the Chaos Lord) this would I feel work towards creating a very customisable HQ option that works to unlock a number of options for the chaos players army and to help them field distinctly themed armies whether they want to field a legion army or a chaos warband

As for "My wrath shall mark the land" perhaps just give it a different profile either to represent how the warp has mutated the ships weapons or to represent the more ancient weapons available during the heresy.
That said I like alot of the proposed changes you've got here and i'll probably try some of them out when I next get a chance to play a game just wanted to give some feedback.

this illustrates one of the big challenges of this project: How do you design a unit that can literally be one of 3 or 4 things?

allow me to illustrate:

What is a Chaos lord?

Simple question right? a combination of 22 characters make up that question. And I'll willing to bet there are at least that many answers to the question.
What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Space marine who serves Chaos and gained enough favor and followers to lead and army.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is one of the officers from the old legions who leads his detachment in service to a greater lord.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A chaos lord is a Space Marine Chapter master who lead his chapter into chaos worship/service.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos lord is a super-brutal killer who got to his position of power by being stronger and deadlier then his opponents.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Dark Adeptus Magos who is equiped with all manner of bizzare and alien technomancy.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a servent of the gods who has been granted his position through devotion to the god(s) he serves.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is former member of the legions who left his legion when something occurred that disgusted him and he formed his own warband.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Space Marine Captain that was betrayed and now seeks vengeance against those who betrayed him.

See where this is going? So the Chaos Lord, and by extension the commander as to be a versatile unit capable to being built to accomplish numerous goals, otherwise the entire army starts getting locked into a particular play style.
And the "My wrath shall mark the land" isn't essentially an orbital bombardment, it IS that. Explicitly. I wasn't trying to make it anything else. That is there specifically to give the option of fielding a Chaos Lord who has the resources to call in an Orbital bombardment. So saying it's essentially something else, when it is explicitly that is frankly a bit insulting as it makes it sounds like I was trying to be creative and just failed so I just copied something else.

As for the veteran tactics.... actually you just gave me an idea. gimme a couple minutes to write it up.

Is Abbadon supposed to only have i5? Seeing as he's supposed to have all four marks of chaos, and the base initiative of a chaos lord is 5, shouldn't he be i6 due to MoS? (Unless the stat changes from each mark aren't included in his profile)

Maverike_prime wrote:

 1000thSon wrote:
I'm all for making the Chaos Lord more beefy but some of the other options feel like this projects is moving closer to Codex:Space Marines+ namely the Chaos commander acting kind of like a Space marine captain(Although this parallel arguably already exists with the current Chaos Lord) and "My wrath shall mark the land" essentially being a Chapter Masters Orbital bombardment. This is all well and good if that's your desired vision for this project but maybe consider drawing fewer parallels between the two codex?

Having a cheaper HQ choice in the form of the Chaos commander is a good idea in and of itself especially given your proposed changes for a beefier more expensive chaos lord but perhaps there’s a better way to implement this unit while keeping him more distinct when compared to the Space marine captain. Other than him conferring fearless to a unit(I think the purposed unlock options are a great way to field a number of themed chaos forces so its fine) maybe include some sort of veteran tactics that he could confer at a certain points cost (Perhaps via special rules like hit and run or stealth and maybe fearless could even be one of them rather than having it base on the commander but keeping it base for the Chaos Lord) this would I feel work towards creating a very customisable HQ option that works to unlock a number of options for the chaos players army and to help them field distinctly themed armies whether they want to field a legion army or a chaos warband

As for "My wrath shall mark the land" perhaps just give it a different profile either to represent how the warp has mutated the ships weapons or to represent the more ancient weapons available during the heresy.
That said I like alot of the proposed changes you've got here and i'll probably try some of them out when I next get a chance to play a game just wanted to give some feedback.

this illustrates one of the big challenges of this project: How do you design a unit that can literally be one of 3 or 4 things?

allow me to illustrate:

What is a Chaos lord?

Simple question right? a combination of 22 characters make up that question. And I'll willing to bet there are at least that many answers to the question.
What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Space marine who serves Chaos and gained enough favor and followers to lead and army.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is one of the officers from the old legions who leads his detachment in service to a greater lord.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A chaos lord is a Space Marine Chapter master who lead his chapter into chaos worship/service.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos lord is a super-brutal killer who got to his position of power by being stronger and deadlier then his opponents.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Dark Adeptus Magos who is equiped with all manner of bizzare and alien technomancy.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a servent of the gods who has been granted his position through devotion to the god(s) he serves.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is former member of the legions who left his legion when something occurred that disgusted him and he formed his own warband.

What is a Chaos Lord?
A Chaos Lord is a Space Marine Captain that was betrayed and now seeks vengeance against those who betrayed him.

See where this is going? So the Chaos Lord, and by extension the commander as to be a versatile unit capable to being built to accomplish numerous goals, otherwise the entire army starts getting locked into a particular play style.
And the "My wrath shall mark the land" isn't essentially an orbital bombardment, it IS that. Explicitly. I wasn't trying to make it anything else. That is there specifically to give the option of fielding a Chaos Lord who has the resources to call in an Orbital bombardment. So saying it's essentially something else, when it is explicitly that is frankly a bit insulting as it makes it sounds like I was trying to be creative and just failed so I just copied something else.

As for the veteran tactics.... actually you just gave me an idea. gimme a couple minutes to write it up.

Fair enough I can understand the difficulty with such a project and I merely wanted to provide some feedback. That said I didn't mean to come across as insulting and I apologise if it seemed that way, my suggestion for the commander and for orbital bombardment weren't meant to insult your creativity as I said I like alot of your purposed changes. I was merely chiming in with my own opinions based on my on interpretation of how I feel chaos should be which was perhaps unfair in retrospect as your question "what is a Chaos Lord" shows chaos comes in a great many flavors. That said I do feel projects like this lend themselves well to as much feedback as possible from the community and as such I wanted to provide my own opinion as I do enjoy the concept of a community driven revamp of my favorite army and yours is one of the more ambitious that I've seen in awhile .

sultanare wrote:Is Abbadon supposed to only have i5? Seeing as he's supposed to have all four marks of chaos, and the base initiative of a chaos lord is 5, shouldn't he be i6 due to MoS? (Unless the stat changes from each mark aren't included in his profile)

That would be the result of a Typo. Thanks for the catch.

1000thSon wrote:

Fair enough I can understand the difficulty with such a project and I merely wanted to provide some feedback. That said I didn't mean to come across as insulting and I apologise if it seemed that way, my suggestion for the commander and for orbital bombardment weren't meant to insult your creativity as I said I like alot of your purposed changes. I was merely chiming in with my own opinions based on my on interpretation of how I feel chaos should be which was perhaps unfair in retrospect as your question "what is a Chaos Lord" shows chaos comes in a great many flavors. That said I do feel projects like this lend themselves well to as much feedback as possible from the community and as such I wanted to provide my own opinion as I do enjoy the concept of a community driven revamp of my favorite army and yours is one of the more ambitious that I've seen in awhile .

Feed back is welcome, but the problem, or perhaps challenge is a better word to use. The challenge of feed back with these sorts of projects is there is a very, and I repeat that this a VERY thin line to walk with feed back. Too hard line and you come off as sounding like "You sodding idiot! You don't know what your talking about." while if you're too casual or in-assertive you come across as sounding like "Eh this is an idea I had, but I didn't think about beyond the initial idea so I'll get this idiot to do the actual work of testing it and make the unit info for it." Your comment about the Orbital bombardment is a good example of this kind of problem. All the non-verbal cues you would use were you talking to me in person are absent in a text based medium so there's nothing of that nature for me to read and get another idea of what you're saying in addition to what you're typing. The only suggestion I can offer in this, is well be direct but leave comparative language out of suggestions unless you're making a comparison specifically to explain an idea or concept.

Could we see a resurgence of 30k Unique Special Rules? I would really appreciate some form of design similarities between your project and the Horus Heresy line of rules.

 Clefty wrote:
Could we see a resurgence of 30k Unique Special Rules? I would really appreciate some form of design similarities between your project and the Horus Heresy line of rules.

ask me in october. By then I'm hoping to have Chaos Renegades finished and will be working on either Chaos Legions of Books of Chaos and will be in a better position to give more detailed answers.

After looking through the images and website, I have a couple questions/comments. Hopefully they are helpful to your effort; I really like what you're doing here.

Bikes:
Does the biker profile include include the +1 T from being a bike?
Where are armor platting and savage blades described in the codex?
The costing for special weapons on bikes seems a bit wonky, a flamer costs the same as a plasma gun?

Chosen:
Why is the base cost for chosen increased to 160 from 90? I don't see anything different about the base squad to suggest it should be much more expensive.
I know its like it in the original codex, but why are a pair of LC 30pts/model? Especially when a pair of LC + Termi armor is 20pts/model.

Helbrute:
Augur Array seems pretty crippling given that it can only snapshoot at ground targets. I can't imagine wanting to take the upgrade as if my opponent doesn't bring fliers the model is pretty well hosed.

Berzerkers:
On the website they are listed as I5 but above are I4. I can't help feel but they should be listed as having the Mark of Khorne (even if they already have the benefits) in case of rules that only affect models with it.

Plague Marines:
Same as above, I think they should be listed as having MoN.

Mark of Khorne no longer includes counter-attack? Just having rage doesn't really seem worth even 1 or 2 points per model.

Okay, one by one:

JubbJubbz wrote:
After looking through the images and website, I have a couple questions/comments. Hopefully they are helpful to your effort; I really like what you're doing here.
Bikes:
Does the biker profile include include the +1 T from being a bike?

It does not, but being asked about it I think it'd be better if I just do include it in the profile. Thoughts on this?

JubbJubbz wrote:

Where are armor platting and savage blades described in the codex?

They will be covered in the Armour section of the codex.

JubbJubbz wrote:

The costing for special weapons on bikes seems a bit wonky, a flamer costs the same as a plasma gun?

hmm, I know I addressed that point before. Guess I didn't update the file. Thanks for the catch.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Chosen:
Why is the base cost for chosen increased to 160 from 90? I don't see anything different about the base squad to suggest it should be much more expensive.

Technical error when I made the page originally. They are supposed to be 90 points base. Thanks for the catch.

JubbJubbz wrote:

I know its like it in the original codex, but why are a pair of LC 30pts/model? Especially when a pair of LC + Termi armor is 20pts/model.

largely because I haven't put that much thought into that option yet. it just got copied over from the standing codex.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Helbrute:
Augur Array seems pretty crippling given that it can only snapshoot at ground targets. I can't imagine wanting to take the upgrade as if my opponent doesn't bring fliers the model is pretty well hosed.

I originally wrote that under 6th ed where it could choose to use Skyfire or not. Haven't changed it yet. Thanks for the reminder.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Berzerkers:
On the website they are listed as I5 but above are I4. I can't help feel but they should be listed as having the Mark of Khorne (even if they already have the benefits) in case of rules that only affect models with it.

hmm interesting, it didn't update the images. I had not noticed that. Thanks. I'll need to deal with that. As for the Mark of Khorne... what rules do affect models with mark of Khorne?

JubbJubbz wrote:

Plague Marines:
Same as above, I think they should be listed as having MoN.

and same question.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Mark of Khorne no longer includes counter-attack? Just having rage doesn't really seem worth even 1 or 2 points per model.

an extra 2 attacks per model isn't worth 1-2 points per model? You're going to need to walk me through your thought process for that one. As an aside I deliberately took Counter attack out of Mark of Khorne to differentiate Khorne Berzerkers from say... Chosen with Mark of Khorne. As it stands right now (in the current GW Codex),

5 Chosen, with mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath is 120 points.
That gives you a 5 man unit with 25 attacks on the charge and have counter attack so if they get caught flat footed, they have 15 attacks.

And with 5 Khorne Berzerkers with icon of Wrath you have a cost of 120 points.
That gives you a 5 man unit with 25 attacks on the charge and have counter attack so if they get caught flat footed, they have 15 attacks.

Yes the Berzerkers are WS5 so they'll hit more often, but the Chosen are more versatile and can have other weapons to deal with more situations, oh and they have a better leadership. So... why would I want to take berzerkers if Chosen can actually do the same job with better options? So by taking counter attack away from every model that has Mark of Khorne and making sure the Berzerkers explicitly have it, the Berzerkers are no longer sidelined as close combat monsters while the Chosen still maintain their versatility. When I get to Books of Chaos, and maybe Chaos Legions (haven't decided yet), that's where you'll see the like of Berzerker Chosen and the like but that's a different entity from Chaos Renegades.


And now a question for everyone, well actually a couple questions:

1) What would you say to the idea of HelBrutes and Defilers getting access to Hadas Auto-cannons and EctoPlams Cannons?

2) What would you say to the idea of giving Typhus a rule that not only allows Plague Marines to be taken as troops, But making Plague Champions Nurgle Sorcerers?

I would be open to giving Helbrutes and Defilers those weapon options. As to the Nurgle Sorcerers I'm not so sure.

I really like the idea of Typhon granting Mastery Level one to all independent Characters with the mark of nurgle.

marrowick wrote:I would be open to giving Helbrutes and Defilers those weapon options. As to the Nurgle Sorcerers I'm not so sure.

Okay, stage time as due: What gives you reservations about the Typhus idea?

Clefty wrote:I really like the idea of Typhon granting Mastery Level one to all independent Characters with the mark of nurgle.

Well I wasn't saying independent characters with mark of Nurgle, just Plague Champions.

Maverike_prime wrote:

marrowick wrote:I would be open to giving Helbrutes and Defilers those weapon options. As to the Nurgle Sorcerers I'm not so sure.

Okay, stage time as due: What gives you reservations about the Typhus idea?

I'm kind of a 'stick to the fluff' guy and I just don't see how Typhus would have the ability to grant this power.

 marrowick wrote:

I'm kind of a 'stick to the fluff' guy and I just don't see how Typhus would have the ability to grant this power.

I think I can see the conceptual problem. you're being too literal in trying to cross from rules to fluff. My thinking isn't that Typhus is magically making Nurgle Sorcerers (Though with everything else Nurgle can crap out I can't say I'd be surprised) or even waving his hand and suddenly people find their inner sorcery powers. Typhus was the the first Death Guard Sorcerer (and given Mortarions disdain for Sorcerery I'm still a bit dubious as to why he didn't kill Typhon as soon as it abilities were revealed post heresy but whatever). It's very likely that others came to Typhus to learn and thus became Death Guard Sorcerers as well. So it's more likely that where Typhus goes with the remains of the Legion that portion of it would have a higher number of sorcerers then other sections of the legion.

Maverike_prime wrote:
Okay, one by one:

JubbJubbz wrote:
After looking through the images and website, I have a couple questions/comments. Hopefully they are helpful to your effort; I really like what you're doing here.
Bikes:
Does the biker profile include include the +1 T from being a bike?

It does not, but being asked about it I think it'd be better if I just do include it in the profile. Thoughts on this?

I think including it in the profile is becoming/is standard for units that start out with bikes. Its a minor issue though.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Berzerkers:
I can't help feel but they should be listed as having the Mark of Khorne (even if they already have the benefits) in case of rules that only affect models with it.
Plague Marines:
Same as above, I think they should be listed as having MoN.

...As for the Mark of Khorne... what rules do affect models with mark of Khorne?
and same question [for plagues].

I can't think of any for Khorne, but I know Nurgle's Rot psychic power doesn't effect models with the MoN for instance. Really just more for consistancy, especially since you're considering doing more specific god books it may be handy to be able to refer to models with mark of X.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Mark of Khorne no longer includes counter-attack? Just having rage doesn't really seem worth even 1 or 2 points per model.

an extra 2 attacks per model isn't worth 1-2 points per model? You're going to need to walk me through your thought process for that one. As an aside I deliberately took Counter attack out of Mark of Khorne to differentiate Khorne Berzerkers from say... Chosen with Mark of Khorne.

Well, rage only really gives you one extra attack over what you would normally get and its only during the first round of combat and only if you manage to be the one charging. I think the current rage+counter is an ok buy but removing half of its bonus makes it a bit on the weak side. I understand what you're saying about the chosen vs bzerks though and its a good point, the only real difference is it is much easier to make bzerks troops. However, I think chosen, since losing infiltrate, have really lost any sort of identity or role to have within the current codex. They are just marines with more special weapons in which the cc variety are prohibitively expensive. Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas for a more unique role they could fill.

I like the idea of the brutes and defilers having access to these weapons, but not in way that essentially makes the regular plasma cannon/reaper AC a 'never take' option. Hades on an elite slot BS4 platform with skyfire sounds like it ought be really exspensive or toned down. In addition, without a change to how the defiler weapons work I can't see upgrading the non-battle cannons as viable any more than they currently are. Maybe if it could replace the battle cannon with a hades or whatever, but then its encroaching on forgefiends role. Being able to shoot one arm weapon not as snap when firing the battle cannon would be nice.

Typhus making plague champs psykers is cool, but I suggest it being a purchasable upgrade for the champ. That way its value is not tied to Typhus and you don't feel cheated if you aren't taking advantage of it. Also maybe put a cap of how many champions can be upgraded this way. A bunch of MSU plague marines with psykers sounds like a nightmare.

Really cool work you're doing here. After I move next week I will try to convince my friend to let me get a few games in with it.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:
Okay, one by one:

JubbJubbz wrote:
After looking through the images and website, I have a couple questions/comments. Hopefully they are helpful to your effort; I really like what you're doing here.
Bikes:
Does the biker profile include include the +1 T from being a bike?

It does not, but being asked about it I think it'd be better if I just do include it in the profile. Thoughts on this?

I think including it in the profile is becoming/is standard for units that start out with bikes. Its a minor issue though.

JubbJubbz wrote:

Berzerkers:
I can't help feel but they should be listed as having the Mark of Khorne (even if they already have the benefits) in case of rules that only affect models with it.
Plague Marines:
Same as above, I think they should be listed as having MoN.

...As for the Mark of Khorne... what rules do affect models with mark of Khorne?
and same question [for plagues].

I can't think of any for Khorne, but I know Nurgle's Rot psychic power doesn't effect models with the MoN for instance. Really just more for consistancy, especially since you're considering doing more specific god books it may be handy to be able to refer to models with mark of X.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Mark of Khorne no longer includes counter-attack? Just having rage doesn't really seem worth even 1 or 2 points per model.

an extra 2 attacks per model isn't worth 1-2 points per model? You're going to need to walk me through your thought process for that one. As an aside I deliberately took Counter attack out of Mark of Khorne to differentiate Khorne Berzerkers from say... Chosen with Mark of Khorne.

Well, rage only really gives you one extra attack over what you would normally get and its only during the first round of combat and only if you manage to be the one charging. I think the current rage+counter is an ok buy but removing half of its bonus makes it a bit on the weak side. I understand what you're saying about the chosen vs bzerks though and its a good point, the only real difference is it is much easier to make bzerks troops. However, I think chosen, since losing infiltrate, have really lost any sort of identity or role to have within the current codex. They are just marines with more special weapons in which the cc variety are prohibitively expensive. Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas for a more unique role they could fill.

I like the idea of the brutes and defilers having access to these weapons, but not in way that essentially makes the regular plasma cannon/reaper AC a 'never take' option. Hades on an elite slot BS4 platform with skyfire sounds like it ought be really exspensive or toned down. In addition, without a change to how the defiler weapons work I can't see upgrading the non-battle cannons as viable any more than they currently are. Maybe if it could replace the battle cannon with a hades or whatever, but then its encroaching on forgefiends role. Being able to shoot one arm weapon not as snap when firing the battle cannon would be nice.

Typhus making plague champs psykers is cool, but I suggest it being a purchasable upgrade for the champ. That way its value is not tied to Typhus and you don't feel cheated if you aren't taking advantage of it. Also maybe put a cap of how many champions can be upgraded this way. A bunch of MSU plague marines with psykers sounds like a nightmare.

Really cool work you're doing here. After I move next week I will try to convince my friend to let me get a few games in with it.

Oh snap! I did forget to upload the new versions of the Lord and Commander! Yeah I changed the Lord and Commander so they can take special rules that carry over to a squad they join, like infiltrate for instance. So take a commander with infiltrate, stick 'em with a unit of Chosen. Hey guess what you get to do now?

To expand on my original thought about the Defiler,... well actually I have no idea what my original idea was now. I've been talking with folks about it so much I can't remember what it was I started with. Anyway, what it's become is that I'm thinking the defiler should start out much more stripped down then it currently does. Here's where my thought process has lead me:

Defiler....................... 150 points
Wargear: Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon
Reaper Autocannon
Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

Options:
+ May replace Twin-linked Ecto-plasm Cannon with Battle Cannon....................... 25 points
+ May take up to 2 Power fists............................................................................... 10 points each
+May replace Twin-linked Flammer with one of the following:
- Havoc launcher................................................................................................... 5 points
- Power Scourge................................................................................................. 25 points
- Power Fist........................................................................................................... 5 points
+ May replace Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
- Power Fist............................................................................................................ free
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter................................................................................... free
- twin-linked Lascannon..................................................................................... 20 points

I like the idea for Defilers. Though you spelled 'flamer' as 'flammer' again. Also Perhaps the Power Scourge's cost should be dropped by five points. Against most models you need a 5 or 6 for it to affect anything 'to hit' wise.