Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

an artefact we recently implemented, warning highly
fluffy and also random, but the risk pays off (5 out of 6 times anyway :d)

Deamonoculaba Remake 20pts (only purchasable by warp smiths)
pioneered by warsmith honsou who created the first working specimen of its kind. this sick creation of demon, machine and flesh, was designed to clone space marines.
Imitations of its construction have been known to produce marines with varying success offering a warlord access to cheap skilled reinforcements.

chaos space marine units in the same detachment may have their points reduced to 9pts per model. they also acquire the flayed special rule
flayed
roll a D6 before the game to determine the success of the batch
d6
1 each model suffers from -1 wound (born dead)
2 each model suffers from -1 Strength (muscle development failure)
3 each model suffers from -1 Initiative (sensory organs compromised)
4 each model suffers from -1 Toughness (bone density is non optimal)
5 Each model suffers from -1 to BS and WS (memory transfer incomplete)
6 the unit is perfect, no flaws

when I ran it I bought 2 units, one died before it hit the battlefield, the other rolled a 3, and did ok for itself. give it a shot.

PS Formosa I ran your Dark halo last night, good stuff but the changes to blind ruin it a bit as they only take one test for blind, still great on fast characters though ran it on a lord in the flayed marine mob, helped offset the low initiative by blinding the enemy unit before they struck. allowing the flayed to splatter them with minimal casualties.

As much as I'd like to claim this idea as my own I cant lol, a mate came up with it and it's kinda an obvious one.

The helm of a thousand fates: 30pts
Sorcerer or librarian only

Psychic hood, once per game at the start of the controlling players turn, the hood may be activated, for the following game turn the psyker and his unit may only be shot by snaps shots, in close combat they may only be hit on a roll of a 4+ regardless of any modifiers or ws. Due to the capricious nature of the helm in the following turn the psyker and his unit may only hit any targeted unit via snap shots and hit on a 4+ in close combat regardless of any modifiers or weapon skill. Chaos is fickle!

We tried this and it's bloody hilarious

 Formosa wrote:
As much as I'd like to claim this idea as my own I cant lol, a mate came up with it and it's kinda an obvious one.

The helm of a thousand fates: 30pts
Sorcerer or librarian only

Psychic hood, once per game at the start of the controlling players turn, the hood may be activated, for the following game turn the psyker and his unit may only be shot by snaps shots, in close combat they may only be hit on a roll of a 4+ regardless of any modifiers or ws. Due to the capricious nature of the helm in the following turn the psyker and his unit may only hit any targeted unit via snap shots and hit on a 4+ in close combat regardless of any modifiers or weapon skill. Chaos is fickle!

We tried this and it's bloody hilarious

It sounds really exploitable. Imagine it on a Psyker used mostly to cast Blessings or Conjuration, no need to hit anything and he gets a major buff to survivability that stacks with Invisibility Shenanigans. It would be especially jarring if you use him just to hold an objective. It would also make the ultimate Tarpit with both sides only hitting half the time.

I'm not too clear on the wording. Does only being able to fire snapshots take affect during the turn which you can only be hit with snapshots or the turn after that. If it's the latter then there's no downside when using it the last turn of the game.

That's true

We've tried it out and it was a Liby in a unit of terminators, they dropped down and popped this off, I killed 2 with my black knights, next turn he charges my mates firewarriors unit and hit them on 4's, killing only 2 haha and he passed his ld test, I then charge in my black knights and wipe the unit out.

We will continue to try out all our hair brained ideas, if they work, cool, if not it might just give the op an idea and that's the point

My own two cents on this matter...
I haven't gone through all of your revised pages yet, but here is what I think could be changed. I do this as an attempt for balance and fluff reasons:

Chaos Lord
Curious about the sharp price increase...
For fluff reasons, I wouldn’t have a Tzeentch Lord unlock Thousand Sons as troops; that should be reserved for the Sorcerer, methinks

Chosen
What is the difference between Chosen and Corpse-Taker? Oh, wait, they’re an Apothecary equivalent. In that case…
Corpse Taker should be its own unit. Also, he should be more defined as a character, as well as be an Independent Character in his own right, so as to join other units.
So, you basically amalgamated Chosen and Terminators into one unit? Reason?
Love the jump-pack and biker options! Ditto to the different traits.

Thousand Sons
The idea of leveling up psyker levels for the number of Rubric marines is a good idea, however it should be limited to either max 15 models in the unit (Psyker Level 3), or Level 2 for 10, then Level 3 for 20 models. As it stands now, a Thousand Sons Army, even with their original points cost, could be potentially overpowered.

Helbrute
The Hell-Forged Warrior seems like an auto-take. Maybe not enough reasons to ever take any of the other traits?
Also, did they change the rule Skyfire for 7th?

Khorne Berzerkers
MAKE CHAINAXES BASIC GEAR, DAMMIT!
For that matter, you could make the ravager blades free to replace said chainaxes
Why not give them Mark of Khorne? It’s in the title, for feth’s sake
Also, shouldn't all cult marines have VotLW, anyways? Or is this to represent one of the newer corrupted chapters?

Bikers
Biker options should be limited to just up to two for each, or at least for the twin-linked options
The side-pod should be a heavy bolter, already; this would be in keeping with the Loyalist equivalents. Also, they should just carry the heavy weapon options.

Hey all, I'm back. Sorry for the relative silence the last 10 days or so. Been a helluva week plus. Had the Apoc game I've been preping for the last 6 months finally. And then had to help get ready for my dad to go in for surgery to have a heart valve replaced. Oh and had to help with getting my sister here and then back to maryland. And my job. So... yeah. Fun times. I have been looking at the artifacts you guys have been posting, I just haven't been in a mental state to process them. I will take a better look at them and get back to you though. Some of them are particularly eye catching.

So, as for Dr. Temujin's comments:

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
My own two cents on this matter...
I haven't gone through all of your revised pages yet, but here is what I think could be changed. I do this as an attempt for balance and fluff reasons:

Hehe, appreciate the effort, just be ready to come up against the ugly wall of fluff failing to game mechanics. I've run up against it myself several times. Look through this post for the "why it makes sense for every single cult unit to have feel no pain" event. That was fun.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
My own two cents on this matter...
Chaos Lord
Curious about the sharp price increase...
For fluff reasons, I wouldn’t have a Tzeentch Lord unlock Thousand Sons as troops; that should be reserved for the Sorcerer, methinks

Largely because the Chaos Lord is, name aside, a unit that wasn't in the current codex. This Chaos Lord is more akin to a Space marine Chapter Master, while the Chaos lord (now the Chaos Commander) is closer to being a Captain.
In the current CSM codex the Chaos Lord is WS: 6 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 LD:10 With a 3+ save for 65 points. All in all a real bargain. So where's the guy who's a bit more hard hitting and less of a 'bargain'? He's not there.
this revamped Chaos Lord is WS:6 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:4 I:5 A:4 LD: 10 with a 3+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable, and he has a new special ability called "Wrath of the Gods" which varies based on which of the 6 mark options you give him.
If you look at the "Favor of the gods" you can see the options it opens up (Which granted I'm not sold on all of so I whole heartedly welcome suggestions)
If you leave the Lord Unmarked he gets an Orbital Bombardment attack. Straight off the pages of the Chapter Master entry.
Mark of Chaos Undivided: You get to deep strike a single 10 model unit with out scatter that can launch an assault the same turn it deep strikes.
Mark of Slaanesh: You force an enemey model to take a leadership check. If it fails, that model fights at BS, WS, and I 1 until the end of the next turn. Didn't succeed in making him fail his leadership check this turn? You can try again next turn. But it can only work once, So pick the target of your perverted mind wisely. (Really open for suggestions on this one)
Lord with Mark of Tzeentch: Pick an enemy character prior to deployment. That character must re-roll all successful saves of any form for the entirety of the game if the lord or the unit the lord is in is attacking it. (Would like some feed back on this one as well. Seems kind of iffy)
Mark of Khorne: once per game, if the lord wins a challenge the lord gets to make an additional attack for each unsaved wound he caused, against the squad the challenged was in. These attacks can in turn generate more attacks.
Mark of Nurgle: Pick one piece of terrain that isn't a fortification. Any model that begins, or ends, it's movement phase in this terrain, or passes through through this terrain that isn't a flyer, jump/jet pack unit, must take a dangerous terrain test. And yes this applies even to units that would normally auto-pass or ignore such a test.

So for 50 point bump the Lord is now getting an extra attack, an extra wound, a 5+ invulnerable save, and a special ability. Not a bad price I'd say. if you disgree with this, please lay out your rational. I absolutely encourage people to challenge me on these sorts of things. The only thing is to remember that I am the one making the actual file so I have final say about what goes in to it. I like to believe myself reasonable, but there will be times where we simply can not come to accord that works. At times like these, Someone simply has to step in and say "This is it and going in."

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Chosen
What is the difference between Chosen and Corpse-Taker? Oh, wait, they’re an Apothecary equivalent. In that case…
Corpse Taker should be its own unit. Also, he should be more defined as a character, as well as be an Independent Character in his own right, so as to join other units.

Not for Chaos Renegades. For Chaos Legions that sounds more applicable, but not for Renegades. My view of Chaos Renegades is these are the war bands, the dozens of different groups that have been brought together by the Lord into something approximating an army. None of them want to work together and chances are half of them will try to attack and kill the other half given the chance. The Corpse taker (for Chaos Renegades) isn't meant to represent a utility that was added to a squad, but rather the other way around. A specialist that came with that squad. It's not a case of the lord saying "Hey I'm adding a Corpse Taker to your unit" no. It's the opposite. The Lord pursued and talked/coerced/bribed/bought this unit because it has a corpse taker in it.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

So, you basically amalgamated Chosen and Terminators into one unit? Reason?

One of the big changes I saw people wanted was the ability to take a retinue/command squad for their lord of Chosen/Terminators. At first it seemed like a simple matter to say "If you have a lord, you can take a unit of Chosen, if you have a lord in Terminator armor then you can take a unit of terminators."

And I quickly got smacked in the face with the rule nazis who broke it down as saying if you take a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor you can take a unit of Chosen AND Terminators and they don't take up any force org slots. Plus, with opening up the option to take Bikes and Jet packs with Chosen, it just made more sense to include terminator armor with that.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Love the jump-pack and biker options! Ditto to the different traits.

Thank you. Chosen have really become my play ground for Legionaries. Weather I include legionaries in the Chaos Renegades Codex, or leave that to the Chaos Legions book exclusively, I don't know yet.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Thousand Sons
The idea of leveling up psyker levels for the number of Rubric marines is a good idea, however it should be limited to either max 15 models in the unit (Psyker Level 3), or Level 2 for 10, then Level 3 for 20 models. As it stands now, a Thousand Sons Army, even with their original points cost, could be potentially overpowered.

You know, I keep coming back to this one. With some advice from Black Skull I came up with the Favor of Tzeentch under 6th where it would only buff an attached sorcerer. But with 7th and the advent of a the communal power pool... yeah. That being said, they are still very expensive for a psychic power boost. Still, the power pool can create problems.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Helbrute
The Hell-Forged Warrior seems like an auto-take. Maybe not enough reasons to ever take any of the other traits?

I wouldn't call it an auto-take and it does increase the cost of the HelBrute by 20% and it basically puts in on a par with a Ven Dread. Those aren't considered auto-includes. The real point here is to create a bridge between the mass produced helbrutes, that can sometimes be equal to a dreadnought, and the Legion Relic dreadnoughts which will be ancient machines of war much more akin to super-ven dreads.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Also, did they change the rule Skyfire for 7th?

They did slightly. Now it's if the unit/weapon has skyfire it can not opt to not use it. Meaning it would be attacking anything that isn't a flyer on a 6. I'm debating weather to change the auger array so it only applies to one weapon, or if it should include the ability to not use skyfire if it so wishes.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Khorne Berzerkers
MAKE CHAINAXES BASIC GEAR, DAMMIT!
For that matter, you could make the ravager blades free to replace said chainaxes

no. To both. The Chain axe does increase the combat capabilities of the berzerker, thus they cost additional points from the base Berserker. Also there have been many many fluff instances where berzerkers don't use Chain Axes. I see no reason to dictate that everyone berzerkers must use chain axes.
As for the Ravager blades, they're not weapons like a Chain sword/axe. They're bladed attachments to the armor. The idea being the Berzerker has knives attached to say their wrist and elbow armor, and their shins allowing them to make fast attacks of opportunity once in the thrall of combat.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Why not give them Mark of Khorne? It’s in the title, for feth’s sake

This is one of those points that has been brought up many times and one I'm still wrestling with. My view of the cult troops has always been that they are extreme examples of devotion to the gods in question. You should not be able to approximate them by giving a mark to bland Chaos Marines, which is what you can do with Berzerkers in the current CSM codex now. Give basic CSMs Marke of Khorne and Icon of wrath and Veterans of the Long war and they're basically the same as Khorne berzerkers and they have the added versatility of being able to use better weapons. So With Chaos Renegades I'm making a very concerted effort to distance Cult troop from Marked troops. Cult troops are the height of dedication to their respective god and frankly saying "These Khorne Berzerkers, who always try to spill blood in the name of Khorne, and has been so thoroughly dedicated to khorne that they are identifiable the universe across to be the disciples of khorne, have the mark of Khorne" honestly sounds like it needs to be followed by a "No gak, sherlock!"

That being said, I am finding more reasons to put in the "They need to be specifically listed has being marked" column then I'm finding to put under the "It's just words" column.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Also, shouldn't all cult marines have VotLW, anyways? Or is this to represent one of the newer corrupted chapters?

Chaos Renegades is about the traitors and renegades that came after the heresy. The space marine Sergent who left his chapter 1,000 years ago, the Company of Blood Ravens who were lost in the warp 4,500 years ago, the Astra Militarium platoons who's Commisar was killed and slowly slide down the hill of corruption during the 2nd battle of Armageddon ect ect. Will there be examples of 10,000 year old legionaries in there? There could be. Thus you have the option to represent that by taking Veterans of the long War. Now, when I get to Chaos Legions, yeah. Veterans of the Long War is going to be standard across the board. Those crazy mofos have been fighting since the heresy.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Bikers
Biker options should be limited to just up to two for each, or at least for the twin-linked options
The side-pod should be a heavy bolter, already; this would be in keeping with the Loyalist equivalents. Also, they should just carry the heavy weapon options.

Well here's the thing: these AREN'T loyalist bikers. This is the point about Chaos Renegades: generally speaking, these different units don't all come from a common background, they don't work together normally, and more often then not, they don't like each other. It is entirely possible for each unit to be outfitted to handle any role, because many of them have been forced to do just that. In a space marine army Bikers function as fast attack units intending to move in and pin down an enemy until they can be either reinforced by foot slogging marines, or reinforced with the application of heavy fire power. In the Chaos Renegades Bikers may be hunters and raider, or they could be psycho looking for a fight, or just guns for hire. The Chaos Bikers aren't long range scouts taking orders from Lord RothGar. They are an individual pack of hunters and raiders that RothGar has offered something to in order to entice them to listen to his orders, for now. When this battle is over, they may well turn on RothGar because they're tired of taking orders from him, or another Lord has offered them more. The Bikers that survive grow stronger because they gain the materials to outfit their bikes with better equipment and better weapons. The dudes that have been ridding for 5,000 years have had a lot of chances to outfit their bikes and they're going to take a lot to convince to work for you (hence the point costs). As for the heavy bolter... notice that the loyalist option costs 45 points. this option is 35 points.

Wow... considered me happily surprised! I really didn't think you would go into such detail on all the points I suggested, here.
Thank you! I'll definitely look more into the other stuff you posted as well. Maybe even put in some suggestions for Possessed or Dark Apostle.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
Wow... considered me happily surprised! I really didn't think you would go into such detail on all the points I suggested, here.
Thank you! I'll definitely look more into the other stuff you posted as well. Maybe even put in some suggestions for Possessed or Dark Apostle.

My pleasure. While this is 'my' project and thus I have final say over what goes into it I have to be realistic and admit that my exposure to 40k in rather limited. There's a group of like 5-7 people who play 40k around here and aren't involved in tournaments, which I avoid like the black plague combined with a clingy X-gf that has bear traps for hands. Any other options I have for games involves travel times in excess of 1 hour each way and with traffic the way it's been around here lately that time can easily spiral upward of 2 hours each way. My one local option for games can easily get crowded out by magic players while there's developed a very strong Warma/hordes following (I personally hate the models for that series so... yeah) I know we established a while back that Blackskull can get more games in in a day then I can get in in a month. With all of that being said I have to get feed back from other people and I'd be a fool not to look at it objectively. I can't promise everything will go into the codexes because it won't. Just look at the back and forth we've had over cult troops. People view them in different ways and that changes what they expect the unit to be able to do. When it comes down to it, I have make the call on what I am putting in my codex. It's kind of a crap chute because on the one hand I come as being a jerk but on the other hand I can't please everyone. There really isn't much of a happy middle ground here.

Okay, some more stuff I thought about today:

Warp-Smiths
Master of Mechanisms: So, the Servitor Thralls obviously give the Warp Smith a better chance at restoring 1 hp/weapon/immobilized, right? So, shouldn’t the wording for this be “add -1 for each Servitor Thrall beyond the first two”? As it is worded now, it sounds like “if you have 3 Servitor Thralls, you must roll 6+ to restore 1 hp/weapon/immobilized”.
Sacrificing Thralls: This is erring on the side of nerfing a bit, but I say this to make sure the Warp Smith isn’t too OP: instead of restoring 3 hull points AND weapons/immobilized, how about 3 hull points OR weapons and immobilized.
Alternate power – Daemonic Overload
Sacrifice a Thrall: on a 1-2, vehicle does not fire, random weapon is destroyed; on a 3+, vehicle weapons fire twice this turn (can only occur every other turn)
Space Marines have an emphasis on defense; Chaos Space Marines have an emphasis on attack.

Marks of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch for infantry still feels a bit underwhelming, it looks like. A 6+ invul. Save still doesn’t seem worth it; bikes turning into jetbikes? Urr? Seems OP here
Undivided is… kinda iffy. How about something such as immune to Fear? Maybe also Stubborn? Some of these guys have been stuck in the Eye of Terror for so long, exposed to such eldritch abominations of the Warp, there's not much else the universe could throw at them that could scare 'em off.

Legionary Squad
Either/or: give them +1 WS, BS, or Attacks; these guys have been fighting since the Horus Heresy. The improved stat line represents their time in the warp honing and improving their skills.
OR
Legionaries can take VotLW (or already have it), but Marine Squads can’t. The latter change is to represent those Marines who only recently turned to the Dark Gods.
Conversely, the +1 WS or BS could be on the Chosen

For Obliterators, just refer to the previous edition of Chaos Marines, and give them back Ld 9 and/or Fearless, and they should be good.

Of course, take all of this with as much salt as you wish, I haven't played CSM.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
Okay, some more stuff I thought about today:

Warp-Smiths
Master of Mechanisms: So, the Servitor Thralls obviously give the Warp Smith a better chance at restoring 1 hp/weapon/immobilized, right? So, shouldn’t the wording for this be “add -1 for each Servitor Thrall beyond the first two”? As it is worded now, it sounds like “if you have 3 Servitor Thralls, you must roll 6+ to restore 1 hp/weapon/immobilized”.
Sacrificing Thralls: This is erring on the side of nerfing a bit, but I say this to make sure the Warp Smith isn’t too OP: instead of restoring 3 hull points AND weapons/immobilized, how about 3 hull points OR weapons and immobilized.
Alternate power – Daemonic Overload
Sacrifice a Thrall: on a 1-2, vehicle does not fire, random weapon is destroyed; on a 3+, vehicle weapons fire twice this turn (can only occur every other turn)
Space Marines have an emphasis on defense; Chaos Space Marines have an emphasis on attack.

When I originally made what is currently the Warp Smith page I felt that the unit was complete. Then I began talking to folks on different forums and the point about the Dark Mechanicus came up, a lot. And by a lot I Mean to the point that discussion about an entire separate army list became a risk. I'm really not interested in in working on another fan-dex right now. I've already got 2 more after this one.What does all of this have to do with the Warp Smith? Well, as it stands the Warp Smith is intended to be an evil/dark version of the Tech Marine. After talking with people about the Dark Mechanicus I no longer feel that is an apt direction to take the unit. So as it stands right now, the Warp Smith is has it is laid out on the pages.

But don't be surprised if that changes radically in the not-to-distant future. So, please if you have anymore suggestions or thoughts on the Warp Smith, post them. In response to your current comments though:
The wording of the Blessing of the Omnisiah on the tech marine and then the Master of Mechanisms has always been a little wonky to me and for the exact reason you list. Normally I prefer to err with what GW has already written because of the entire RAW/RAI debate. This seems like one time it would be better to make the rule written to be what I intend it to be though.
The Sacrificing a thrall being potentially OP: yeah it is. There isn't any other way to respond to that. See my original comment about the Warp Smith. This is more then likely get wrapped into that.
Your other option for the Sacrifice a Thrall: I like the direction your suggesting with it, but again I think the entire idea of sacrificing the Thrall is going to be swept away with the new direction I'm looking at for the Warp Smith.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Marks of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch for infantry still feels a bit underwhelming, it looks like. A 6+ invul. Save still doesn’t seem worth it; bikes turning into jetbikes? Urr? Seems OP here

Mark of Tzeentch is one of the most annoying marks to deal with largely because while the idea of Tzeentch is so enticing, it's manifestation on the table is... well it's difficult to say the least. It's either very underwhelming and over shadows by other options (IE What we have now) or is too easily abused and game breaking. It's effect on infantry and jump infantry is basically just lifted right from the current codex because I needed something. I originally did this to a- show what sort of direction I wanted to take with the marks b- get something on screen in the hopes that people would really get into a discussion about it and either come up with a good idea, or un-jam my mental log jam about them. You're actually the first to do that by the way.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Undivided is… kinda iffy. How about something such as immune to Fear? Maybe also Stubborn? Some of these guys have been stuck in the Eye of Terror for so long, exposed to such eldritch abominations of the Warp, there's not much else the universe could throw at them that could scare 'em off.

See this is one of those points where the verbage of a rule and the mechanics clash with the idea of the rule. "Fearless" and "Stubborn" sound real good, but in-game they become deceptively asinine. Space marines, and by extension their traitor equivalents are not stupid. They should not be trying to win a fight that they have already lost. If they move forward and suddenly see 1/4 of their squad/gang/group get pulped by an Earth Shaker round they don't say "Oh whatever. I'm not afriad of a little artillery fire." They say "Crap! I didn't know that going to happen! Get to cover to avoid the incoming fire." This is what being able to choose to fail a leadership test does. "Hey these circumstances are not in our favor. Lets move so that we find circumstances that are in our favor." versus "We were ordered to accomplish so we're going to die trying". It's not that the Chaos Marines are crapping their pants with fear, it's that they have been better trained to understand the ebb and flow of the battlefield and so can make better choices in the field. Freed from the institutionalized dogma of the Codex Astartes many Chaos Space Marines should be showing more personal initiative on the battlefield.

Now with all of that said, yeah undivided is a bit of a wash at the moment and largely for the same reason as Tzeentch, though with the added wrinkle of trying to not be "And They Shall know no fear" with spikes.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Legionary Squad
Either/or: give them +1 WS, BS, or Attacks; these guys have been fighting since the Horus Heresy. The improved stat line represents their time in the warp honing and improving their skills.
OR
Legionaries can take VotLW (or already have it), but Marine Squads can’t. The latter change is to represent those Marines who only recently turned to the Dark Gods.
Conversely, the +1 WS or BS could be on the Chosen

the more I work on this project the more I'm coming to conclude that creating the Legionary squad was a bad idea. It's easier just to say the plethora of options the Chosen have represent them having been able to adapt over the centuries.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

For Obliterators, just refer to the previous edition of Chaos Marines, and give them back Ld 9 and/or Fearless, and they should be good.

With the exceptions of the Marks I honestly don't have much reason to even look at Obliterators right now, though the fearless was handy on them.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:

Of course, take all of this with as much salt as you wish, I haven't played CSM.

well feed back and view points are always welcome.

This could just be a stupid off the cuff idea but could you perhaps show the idea of chaos renegades being a loose war band of mostly recently turned astartes by giving them something like this.

Know no fear or loyalty:
A unit with this special rule cannot be destroyed by sweeping advance, if a sweeping advance is made on them they simply stay in combat. However, this unit does not automatically regroup & may run of board.

You're talk about them leaving if they think the reward isn't enough made me think this could be a good idea. Hope I didn't just repeat someone else, it's a to try & check forums on a smart phone.

.

3dog wrote:
This could just be a stupid off the cuff idea but could you perhaps show the idea of chaos renegades being a loose war band of mostly recently turned astartes by giving them something like this.

Know no fear or loyalty:
A unit with this special rule cannot be destroyed by sweeping advance, if a sweeping advance is made on them they simply stay in combat. However, this unit does not automatically regroup & may run of board.

You're talk about them leaving if they think the reward isn't enough made me think this could be a good idea. Hope I didn't just repeat someone else, it's a to try & check forums on a smart phone.

no, you haven't repeated anyone else. I need to mull over this idea.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present you another example of how random my brain is!

Somehow 3Dog's suggestion about a quasi-ATSKNF somehow got me thinking about Obliterators. Don't ask me why, it just did and we'll leave it at that.

First, the atsknf point. Well it's a two pointer here:

First, the point about ATSKNF got me thinking about the special characters, namely Typhus, Huron, Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon, and Ahriman. Well those and comparing it to my prior comments about the lack of loyalty in a Chaos Renegades army. I mean Abaddon and Kharn and the like, yeah they are brutally imposing individuals, and they have earned that role. They know fear, and it doesn't phase them. Giant super daemon? Whatever. Been there, beaten that. Got the skull. Monsterous Tyranid Creature? Okay I'll keep an eye on the extra arms but other wise this should be fun. Facing down an army of the corpse emperors' half-breed dogs? Yeah, not worried about it.

So, The Chaos Lord, Ahriman, Abaddon, Kharn, Huron, Typhus, and Lucius will get ATSKNF.

Well I did say it's a 2 point note, so here's the second point. The Chaos Commander, Havocs, Chaos Space Marines, Bikers and raptors are getting a new rule called "They know no fear, nor loyalty." Basically when/if the unit is caught by a sweeping advance it is not destroyed but rather remains locked in combat.

Now, here's the part I haven't been able to decide on: Chaos Legionaries vs Chosen.

I had explained earlier that I'm not sure making the Legionaries was a good idea because they seem like they're competing with Chaos Chosen. Well here is a point that exemplifies it. Should Chosen have ATSKNF to be representative of their status and still continuing the suggestion that this unit could also represent members of the Legions? Or should they get Know no fear, nor loyalty while Legionaries get ATSKNF this way allowing the Legionaries to have a claim on ground as a different unit, while representing the Legions at least in passing?

Now I had mentioned that I had been thinking about Obliterators. I don't really know where this particular idea came from but I like the idea if not the exact implementation of it. I'll keep my explanation to a minimum and rather just post the spread for the Obliterators:

ATSKNF is due to the mental indoctrination (Brainwashing) the Loyalist Astartes undergo. The lack of mental conditioning was a major reason for the Horus Heresy. Chaos Space Marines wouldn't have their free will taken away.

ATSKNF is unique to Space Marines due to intense and secretive techniques. No other force in the Imperium or outside of it has ATSKNF, not the bravest Guards Man, Most Devout Battle Sister, or even an Eldar Avatar.

Fearless makes more sense for them than ATSKNF.

Maverike_prime wrote:

3dog wrote:
This could just be a stupid off the cuff idea but could you perhaps show the idea of chaos renegades being a loose war band of mostly recently turned astartes by giving them something like this.

Know no fear or loyalty:
A unit with this special rule cannot be destroyed by sweeping advance, if a sweeping advance is made on them they simply stay in combat. However, this unit does not automatically regroup & may run of board.

You're talk about them leaving if they think the reward isn't enough made me think this could be a good idea. Hope I didn't just repeat someone else, it's a to try & check forums on a smart phone.

no, you haven't repeated anyone else. I need to mull over this idea.

Yeah he did repeat someone else lol, twas me a few pages back with the psudo atskf idea, seems like it's a good idea though

 Formosa wrote:

Yeah he did repeat someone else lol, twas me a few pages back with the psudo atskf idea, seems like it's a good idea though

Oh, sorry Formosa. Somehow totally missed it. my Bad.

Don't apologise dude, there are alot of.. Ahem... Chaotic ideas floating around this thread, can't be expected to see them all.

When is the next update btw as my mate's and I are currently testing another chaos dex from dakka and would also like to test this one

 Formosa wrote:
Don't apologise dude, there are alot of.. Ahem... Chaotic ideas floating around this thread, can't be expected to see them all.

When is the next update btw as my mate's and I are currently testing another chaos dex from dakka and would also like to test this one

Um... I just posted the Obliterators... and added a rule to... well 2/3 of the units that I have updated

How about this?:

"Something to fear" - While Chaos marines have no loyalty to their warlord, they have every reason to fear his wrath. Where as long as your Chaos Lord or Warlord is still around, the player can choose to treat failed morale and Ld-tests as if the units been afflicted by fear.

 aka_mythos wrote:
How about this?:

"Something to fear" - While Chaos marines have no loyalty to their warlord, they have every reason to fear his wrath. Where as long as your Chaos Lord or Warlord is still around, the player can choose to treat failed morale and Ld-tests as if the units been afflicted by fear.

... okay you're going to have to walk me through that one. Having your WS reduced to 1 version normal moral tests.... why would that be a good thing?

Sorry, re-reading what I posted I realize it wasn't my complete thought. Generally speaking my thought was that it would be a not quite free way to auto-regroup. Where fear of the warlords wrath would compel them to stay in combat or allow them to regroup where they otherwise failed those tests. WS 1 while a penalty wouldn't necessarily be much of a penalty to avoid the effects of pinning.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Sorry, re-reading what I posted I realize it wasn't my complete thought. Generally speaking my thought was that it would be a not quite free way to auto-regroup. Where fear of the warlords wrath would compel them to stay in combat or allow them to regroup where they otherwise failed those tests. WS 1 while a penalty wouldn't necessarily be much of a penalty to avoid the effects of pinning.

Right... I still don't understand what you are suggesting. failing a fear check has nothing to do with staying in combat or running away. It just reduces your WS to 1. So... yeah they're afraid of the warlord. Sure. But that makes them fight worse? I'm afraid I'm still not following.

I'm suggesting a rule that would allow CSM after having failed a morale or leadership test to treat the consequence of that failure as that WS 1 for an assault phase instead of the normal failure of that test... So instead of being pinned or outright running away and being swept or running away and never regrouping they stay where you want them.

Examples in practice:
-a CSM squad is shot at by another unit that requires a pinning test, the CSM squad fails that test, instead of being forced to go to ground you retroactively decide that you've passed that test in exchange for taking the WS1 penalty which only effects you if you decided to assault or get assaulted.

-a CSM squad is holding a position a loss in numbers is forcing it to leadership tests... They fail but instead of falling back off your objective they exchange the effects of that failed leadership roll for sitting put and taking the WS1 penalty which only effects you if you decided to assault or get assaulted.

-a CSM squad has locked an opponent's unit in assault but after that poor performing turn they've failed their leadership test to stay in combat and are about to fallback and potentially be swept... now in exchange for taking the WS1 penalty for an assault phase you can continue to hold that opponents unit in combat until every last CSM is killed.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I'm suggesting a rule that would allow CSM after having failed a morale or leadership test to treat the consequence of that failure as that WS 1 for an assault phase instead of the normal failure of that test... So instead of being pinned or outright running away and being swept or running away and never regrouping they stay where you want them.

Examples in practice:
-a CSM squad is shot at by another unit that requires a pinning test, the CSM squad fails that test, instead of being forced to go to ground you retroactively decide that you've passed that test in exchange for taking the WS1 penalty which only effects you if you decided to assault or get assaulted.

-a CSM squad is holding a position a loss in numbers is forcing it to leadership tests... They fail but instead of falling back off your objective they exchange the effects of that failed leadership roll for sitting put and taking the WS1 penalty which only effects you if you decided to assault or get assaulted.

-a CSM squad has locked an opponent's unit in assault but after that poor performing turn they've failed their leadership test to stay in combat and are about to fallback and potentially be swept... now in exchange for taking the WS1 penalty for an assault phase you can continue to hold that opponents unit in combat until every last CSM is killed.

*scratches head in confusion* I understand what you're saying, I just can't bring myself around to seeing Space marines, in any color or allegiance, operating like that. I mean, I could see something like that with like Astra Militarium Conscripts, you know people who were basically pulled off the street, handed a gun and pointed in the general direction of the enemy, but space Marines... hell professional solders of any type I just can't see them doing that.

It certainly better representing of a soldiers self preservation than how it currently is.

I'm not saying its a good rule or is perfect but it's a starting point that wasn't meant to start a discussion.

The difference between CSM and SM while both are professional soldiers the loyalist believe in self sacrifice while the CSM self centeredly place self preservation over the mission. As it is GW represents that by having them always running away. What motivator would drive a CSM to continue risking his life for the mission?-It's not duty or loyalty and I think it'd be a stretch to justify it as pride. So I think to override their self preservation it'd have to be fear of some sort... Whether it's fear of their warlord or fear of the chaos gods, I think it should be fear of whatever's wrath. I don't think my rule is necessarily the best way to represent that but I think it's atleast a balanced starting point.

I imagine Chaos Lords forcing their warbands to make oaths to the dark gods, "should I flee from battle, may the ruinous powers smite me down!"... Living in the eye of terror such a pact could very well result in a CSM being cursed and would be something it's denizens would fear.

 aka_mythos wrote:

I imagine Chaos Lords forcing their warbands to make oaths to the dark gods, "should I flee from battle, may the ruinous powers smite me down!"... Living in the eye of terror such a pact could very well result in a CSM being cursed and would be something it's denizens would fear.

See that's something I can see happening in a Books of Chaos army, not a Chaos Renegades army. The big difference is, at least as I'm looking at it, a Chaos Renegades army... well isn't an 'army' per say. It's a collection of seperate groups that have been brought together via the war lord. Now weather the means the Lord used to bring these groups together was gold, dead bodies to do things to, exchange for some sort of artifact, support in another operation, whatever is a whole other discussion. The basic point is that a Chaos Renegades army is a collection of smaller groups who may be held in thrall by fear, but are more likely serving the lord for their own gain. Fear while a factor in that, is not the over ridding control mechanism.

In a Books of Chaos Army... and I really need a different name for that, but in a Books of Chaos Army it can absolutely be fear that is holding the army together, but fear of the gods not the Lord. The Lord is seen as the best physical avatar of the god in question, but it is still the power and wrath of the god(s) themselves that the followers would fear. There is no enticement, and negotiations in this army. These are devout followers of the god(s) in question and they absolutely fear the wrath of their deity should they fail. So in this army I can see a "Hold the ground at all costs" kind of approach being a very good army rule.

The problem I see with treating a failed morale test as if they'd failed a fear test is that... Astartes know no fear.Becoming WS1 would imply that they're cowering in their Chaotic boots at the might of the enemy, paralyzed in terror. That never happens with Space Marines, Chaos or otherwise.


I like the proposed idea of Chaos Marines that fail a morale test simply being immune to sweeping advances.

The Astartes, genetically bred Sons of the Emperor, are physically incapable of feeling fear. However, unlike their Imperial brethren, while a Chaos Marine may be immune to fear, he does not share the Adeptus Astartes' sense of self-sacrifice. If the risks outweigh the promise of glory, a Chaos Marine will often abandon the battlefield to fight his foes another day.

A unit with at least one model possessing this special rule is immune to the fear USR, and is immune to being destroyed in sweeping advances. When a unit with this rule fails a morale test at the end of a fight phase, the sweeping advance step is skipped. The unit falls back as normal, and the victorious unit consolidates. From that point, the unit falling back follows the rules for falling back as normal.

OK, I noticed your TS having 2W. It's nice and all, but 2W models have one big problem: they slow the game. I suggest giving them FNP4+ instead - it's almost as good as 2W, and have the same effect with All is Dust special rule (since ID ignore DTW), and as a nice bonus you don't have to keep wound markers near your TS models.

I think the 2W is a deliberate attempt to distinguish them from Plague Marines (as PM's are already better TKSons anyway, mechanically).