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Bit of fiddling on the Mutilators:

-There is no reason to ever take a pair of power swords initially. Lightning Claws have the same AP, same # of attacks, and the Shred USR. Maybe make it Master-crafter power swords so the user can pick hitting more versus wounding more? Unless they are there just to deal with the whole 'can't use the same weapon twice' thing.

-You might also want to reduce their BS to 0, since they have no ranged weapons and having them using emplaced weapons is a bit silly.

 Sephyr wrote:

Bit of fiddling on the Mutilators:

-There is no reason to ever take a pair of power swords initially. Lightning Claws have the same AP, same # of attacks, and the Shred USR. Maybe make it Master-crafter power swords so the user can pick hitting more versus wounding more? Unless they are there just to deal with the whole 'can't use the same weapon twice' thing.

-You might also want to reduce their BS to 0, since they have no ranged weapons and having them using emplaced weapons is a bit silly.

Well A- the rule is lifted right out of the Current Codex. and B- For the prior attempt at a revamping of it that I originally thought of, look at the Mutilators page and check out the over versions.

Well guys that's it. I'm done. I have literally been ham strung from continuing this project in any meaningful way. What am I talk about? The point that 40k as an ongoing friendly game environment in this area is dead. The one store with in an hours drive in any direction for me, that has play space is situated in an out of the way shopping center that frankly is a pain to get into under normal circumstances, is currently all but inaccessable due to road construction cutting off the most direct access to the shopping center, followed by the second most direct route being declared private property and being barred to through traffic. So now to get to the shop it's make a left on this road that leads into the depths of the forest of doom, now make another left onto the trail of endless woe, then make another left and go over the bridge of infinite death, then make a right and go through the Cave of unending hardships and finally pass through the gates of unending torment.

Yes, I'm talking about making a 7 mile trip through residential areas, about 80% of which are blind turns at 4-way stops in place of going 1 mile on the main road. Thank you country road work. What does this have to do with playing 40k for me? Simple.

Of the the already barely present group of people who had an interest in 40k, only 2 of them would agree to allow me to play test this codex against them (They were tau and Eldar players btw). And with the difficulty in getting to the shop now, they're not coming in for 40k any longer. So, now I have 0 ability to play test the rules.

So... yeah. It was a good run. I'd have liked to finish all three books, but with out the ability to play test anything, it's nothing more then rules-masterbation. Sorry guys. I gave it my best shot.

I'm sorry to hear that, man.

Ah well- it was indeed a good run.

If I can get a dedicated play testing group I can continue work on the project. But I honestly don't know what else I can do to facilitate that. I've mentioned the need for play testing constantly, I've made the website to centralize the information, I made the form submission for battle reports.... I've gotten like five reports in total since I started the project. I can no longer do the play testing. So... Yeah...

Well, if you move to New York, you can use my table. I really appreciate your comment about rules-masterbation.

It's "narthecium."

pelicaniforce wrote:
Well, if you move to New York, you can use my table. I really appreciate your comment about rules-masterbation.

You liked that one huh? Yeah I came up with it when most people handed me the "It's broken. Come talk to me when it's balanced" answer if and when I asked them to play test the units with me. "Um.... yes I know it's broken. I need to play test it to determine how it's broken and make changes to unbreak it." But yeah, most of the people around here apparently you play test something after it's balanced or something.

But yeah. As for the play testing, any one can play test them and I've been encouraging people to do just that. There's a form on the web site for submitting feed back via play testing. So yeah, don't need me there to play test.

Well, I mean you could use the list yourself. I like it when people experiment. I might not even be in the room.

The revamp is mostly pre-game/non-game stuff like the choice between lord and commander, the force-org movements (which are a bit pointless in 7th edition), the corpse-taker and retinue stuff for Chosen, and everything else finicky (thousand sons) that if I played against it I do not think I would notice the difference from the official codex.

Like I said, I was hoping you lived here so I could help you collect your own data. It's a fun thing you're doing!

You might use Vassal for playtesting experiments. It's way faster and represents what you need. And it's not very hard to find people willing to see what's going on with your guyz. For example, i've made a revamp for 4-th ed ork codex in 6 ed. And playtested it in Vassal with great results.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584700.page

Note that it was played during 6-th ed with a 4-th ed ork codex, so such things will be a bit over the top with the general improvement we get now with painbosses, 'ere we go and the return of the old WAAAGH! But that time, 5 pt slugga boyz and 3 pt 'eavy armor seemed ballanced. Besides the thing with multiple nobz in one squad of boyz is actually present in new dataslates: Greentide and Vulcha Boyz.

Anywayz, you can count on my assistance if needed. We can issue a game.

 koooaei wrote:
You might use Vassal for playtesting experiments. It's way faster and represents what you need. And it's not very hard to find people willing to see what's going on with your guyz. For example, i've made a revamp for 4-th ed ork codex in 6 ed. And playtested it in Vassal with great results.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584700.page

Note that it was played during 6-th ed with a 4-th ed ork codex, so such things will be a bit over the top with the general improvement we get now with painbosses, 'ere we go and the return of the old WAAAGH! But that time, 5 pt slugga boyz and 3 pt 'eavy armor seemed ballanced. Besides the thing with multiple nobz in one squad of boyz is actually present in new dataslates: Greentide and Vulcha Boyz.

Anywayz, you can count on my assistance if needed. We can issue a game.

I've experimented with Vassel before, but I just never could figure out how to use it, let alone how to connect with someone else.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You might use Vassal for playtesting experiments. It's way faster and represents what you need. And it's not very hard to find people willing to see what's going on with your guyz. For example, i've made a revamp for 4-th ed ork codex in 6 ed. And playtested it in Vassal with great results.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584700.page

Note that it was played during 6-th ed with a 4-th ed ork codex, so such things will be a bit over the top with the general improvement we get now with painbosses, 'ere we go and the return of the old WAAAGH! But that time, 5 pt slugga boyz and 3 pt 'eavy armor seemed ballanced. Besides the thing with multiple nobz in one squad of boyz is actually present in new dataslates: Greentide and Vulcha Boyz.

Anywayz, you can count on my assistance if needed. We can issue a game.

I've experimented with Vassel before, but I just never could figure out how to use it, let alone how to connect with someone else.

Can help you with that. Pm me.

 koooaei wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You might use Vassal for playtesting experiments. It's way faster and represents what you need. And it's not very hard to find people willing to see what's going on with your guyz. For example, i've made a revamp for 4-th ed ork codex in 6 ed. And playtested it in Vassal with great results.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584700.page

Note that it was played during 6-th ed with a 4-th ed ork codex, so such things will be a bit over the top with the general improvement we get now with painbosses, 'ere we go and the return of the old WAAAGH! But that time, 5 pt slugga boyz and 3 pt 'eavy armor seemed ballanced. Besides the thing with multiple nobz in one squad of boyz is actually present in new dataslates: Greentide and Vulcha Boyz.

Anywayz, you can count on my assistance if needed. We can issue a game.

I've experimented with Vassel before, but I just never could figure out how to use it, let alone how to connect with someone else.

Can help you with that. Pm me.

I use Vassal to play with a friend of mine who lives out of state and I agree that it really is a great tool.

I am making my own Chaos Codex right now, so if topic starter wants, we can merge our projects and help each other with ideas and playtesting.

Dart_Lenin wrote:
I am making my own Chaos Codex right now, so if topic starter wants, we can merge our projects and help each other with ideas and playtesting.

If Marrowick and Koonaei can help me get Vassal set up and get me runnign with using it I think I can actually get some real play testing done and continue working on the project. As for the interest in joining our projects together, Dart that's going to involve some more discussion before I say "Yes" or "no" to it. Unlike most of... well actually all of the other Chaos Codex revamp projects I've looked at, mine doesn't aim to 'fix' Codex: Chaos Space marines. In truth when and if my project is completed Codex: Chaos Space Marines will be completely replaced by a series of 3 books.

Codex: Chaos Renegades is intended to represent the patch worked war bands of various troops that have turned traitor following the heresy; the random Marine who grew tired of endless wars that saw no progress, the occasional squad that was forgotten about and the rare company that was lead to treachery by its officers, the Astra Militarum regiments who have lost cohesion and become traitor guard, and the mutants and hell spawn that spew forth from the warp. These are NOT the legions. Let me say that again, Chaos Renegades are NOT legions. Armies built out of this book are intended to be centered around the Chaos Lord and thus how the lord is equipped will have considerable influence over the rest of the army will be. Like wise, many of the units in such an army are their because they are being black mailed, coerced, paid off, are trading services for resources, ect. They are NOT there because they have any level of personal loyalty to the Lord in question. They fight for/with the Lord because the Lord has promised them something they want in return.

Codex: Chaos Legions will be the book that has the Legions that people have been demanding for years. Here is where it is intended that you will be able to build an Iron Warriors Grand Company, or a Night Lord Terror legion. Armies of legionaries that honed their skills at the height of the crusade that are backed by the warp altered engines of war that took part in the siege of Terra. Ancient and honored warriors that once marched to war alongside those ancient masters of war known as the Primarch, have been twisted by jealousy, resentment, rage, and betrayel have now become the greatest enemies of the very Imperium they fought to forge 100 centuries ago. Some of them have become dedicated to the Gods of Chaos and now go to war alongside those that were once considered the heroes of the Imperium, bound to obey the orders of centuries old commanders trained by the Primarchs themselves. While there is ample reason to support the statement "The Legions are dead/broken" there are still armies that goes to war either descended from those original Legions, or have been formed in emulation of those legions. Smaller groups formed out of the Legions 100 centuries ago have grown in prominence and prestige, earning the respect of their fellow warriors and now lead smaller detachments under the titles once associated with the old Legions.

Finally there will be Codex: Books of Chaos. Each of the four gods crave the power of those that worship them and in many forms these followers form armies of those devoted to them. Armies of drug crazed maniacs march alongside demonically powered sonic weaponry wielding corrupted marines. Massed groupings of shambling plague zombies create a walking wall of filth that will simply absorb incoming fire to protect the chosen of the plague god. Ranks of Sorcerer Adept march alongside the favored of Tzeentch as pillars of blue fire rise up at the command of the masters of Sorcerery. Rivers of blood are drawn in the mountains as scores of berserk psychopaths slaughter their way through their opposition.

This is a fairly radical departure from the standard Codex break down, but I truly feel that this 4 book approach (including Codex: Chaos daemons) is the best way to represent the diversity and breadth of the forces that can march to war under the banner of Chaos with out trying to create a giant monster of a book that has like 30 different HQ options with a dozen rules attached to them to control army build based on some insane conglomeration of thoughts.

So, as long you can agree with me on this particular approach we can talk about merging our respective projects.

Maverike_prime wrote:

Dart_Lenin wrote:
I am making my own Chaos Codex right now, so if topic starter wants, we can merge our projects and help each other with ideas and playtesting.

If Marrowick and Koonaei can help me get Vassal set up and get me runnign with using it I think I can actually get some real play testing done and continue working on the project. As for the interest in joining our projects together, Dart that's going to involve some more discussion before I say "Yes" or "no" to it. Unlike most of... well actually all of the other Chaos Codex revamp projects I've looked at, mine doesn't aim to 'fix' Codex: Chaos Space marines. In truth when and if my project is completed Codex: Chaos Space Marines will be completely replaced by a series of 3 books.

Codex: Chaos Renegades is intended to represent the patch worked war bands of various troops that have turned traitor following the heresy; the random Marine who grew tired of endless wars that saw no progress, the occasional squad that was forgotten about and the rare company that was lead to treachery by its officers, the Astra Militarum regiments who have lost cohesion and become traitor guard, and the mutants and hell spawn that spew forth from the warp. These are NOT the legions. Let me say that again, Chaos Renegades are NOT legions. Armies built out of this book are intended to be centered around the Chaos Lord and thus how the lord is equipped will have considerable influence over the rest of the army will be. Like wise, many of the units in such an army are their because they are being black mailed, coerced, paid off, are trading services for resources, ect. They are NOT there because they have any level of personal loyalty to the Lord in question. They fight for/with the Lord because the Lord has promised them something they want in return.

Codex: Chaos Legions will be the book that has the Legions that people have been demanding for years. Here is where it is intended that you will be able to build an Iron Warriors Grand Company, or a Night Lord Terror legion. Armies of legionaries that honed their skills at the height of the crusade that are backed by the warp altered engines of war that took part in the siege of Terra. Ancient and honored warriors that once marched to war alongside those ancient masters of war known as the Primarch, have been twisted by jealousy, resentment, rage, and betrayel have now become the greatest enemies of the very Imperium they fought to forge 100 centuries ago. Some of them have become dedicated to the Gods of Chaos and now go to war alongside those that were once considered the heroes of the Imperium, bound to obey the orders of centuries old commanders trained by the Primarchs themselves. While there is ample reason to support the statement "The Legions are dead/broken" there are still armies that goes to war either descended from those original Legions, or have been formed in emulation of those legions. Smaller groups formed out of the Legions 100 centuries ago have grown in prominence and prestige, earning the respect of their fellow warriors and now lead smaller detachments under the titles once associated with the old Legions.

Finally there will be Codex: Books of Chaos. Each of the four gods crave the power of those that worship them and in many forms these followers form armies of those devoted to them. Armies of drug crazed maniacs march alongside demonically powered sonic weaponry wielding corrupted marines. Massed groupings of shambling plague zombies create a walking wall of filth that will simply absorb incoming fire to protect the chosen of the plague god. Ranks of Sorcerer Adept march alongside the favored of Tzeentch as pillars of blue fire rise up at the command of the masters of Sorcerery. Rivers of blood are drawn in the mountains as scores of berserk psychopaths slaughter their way through their opposition.

This is a fairly radical departure from the standard Codex break down, but I truly feel that this 4 book approach (including Codex: Chaos daemons) is the best way to represent the diversity and breadth of the forces that can march to war under the banner of Chaos with out trying to create a giant monster of a book that has like 30 different HQ options with a dozen rules attached to them to control army build based on some insane conglomeration of thoughts.

So, as long you can agree with me on this particular approach we can talk about merging our respective projects.

Indeed. I agree with this whole heartedly. I also have a few designs written up that (while not necessarily merging) I can share with you if you want to take a look at some of my ideas. They are more of a Chaos Legions thing though. As to Vassal just shoot me a PM with your question and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

 marrowick wrote:

Indeed. I agree with this whole heartedly. I also have a few designs written up that (while not necessarily merging) I can share with you if you want to take a look at some of my ideas. They are more of a Chaos Legions thing though. As to Vassal just shoot me a PM with your question and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

I welcome all ideas and materials to the project, Marrowick. Post away. I'd love to be able to check out what you've got. Just can't promise I'll be able to read it right away. Might be a couple days.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 marrowick wrote:

Indeed. I agree with this whole heartedly. I also have a few designs written up that (while not necessarily merging) I can share with you if you want to take a look at some of my ideas. They are more of a Chaos Legions thing though. As to Vassal just shoot me a PM with your question and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

I welcome all ideas and materials to the project, Marrowick. Post away. I'd love to be able to check out what you've got. Just can't promise I'll be able to read it right away. Might be a couple days.

Sure thing, I understand if your busy.

None of this has yet been playtested so it may have varying balance.

THE MARKS OF CHAOS:
One of the things you always hear from people asking for a new codex is "Tzeentch's mark is terrible" or "This mark is useless for this unit" because of this I have decided that each mark of chaos will work differently for some units and because of this the ability granted by each mark shall be listed in the units profile.



ICONS OF CHAOS:
Khorne only icons:
The Icon of Hate: All models in the unit have the Hatred (everything) special rule
The Icon of Fury: All models in the unit have the Rage and Furious Charge special rules
The Icon of War: All models in the unit have the Crusader special rule

Nurgle only icons:
The Icon of Rot: All models in the unit have the Feel No Pain special rule
The Icon of Infection: All Melee weapons in the unit have the Poisoned (4+) special rule

Slaneesh only icons:
The Icon of Swiftness: All models in the unit have the Fleet special rule
The Icon of Hightened Senses: All models in the unit have the Acute Senses special rule

Tzeentch only icons:
The Icon of Sorcery: All models in the unit have the Brotherhood of Sorcerers special rule
The Icon of Flame: All ranged weapons in the unit have the Soul Blaze special rule



ELITE
Helbrute 160

Unit Type: MC

Unit Composition: 1 Helbrute

WS4 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv2+

Wargear: Fleshmetal, Powerfist, Multi-Melta

Special Rules: Rage, Furious Charge, IWND, Insane Beast

Insane Beast: If this Helbrute suffers a wound then it gains the Flashbane and Armourbane special rules until the start of your opponent's next turn

Changes to options: Mark of Slaneesh: +1 I, May swap Multi-Melta for Blastmaster for no cost.............15 pts
Mark of Nurgle: +1 T................................................................................................................................................ 30 pts
Mark of Khorne: +1 A............................................................................................................................................... 15 pts
Mark of Tzeentch: May re-roll 1s to hit.................................................................................................................. 15 pts


There are a few more designs I had but I have to go for now. I shall edit this post later with the rest of my designs.

Sorry. My computer cut me off before I could finish my post. Ignore this.

From another thread on Chaos Land Raiders, here was my nifty idea that no-one disagreed with **

Regular Chaos Landraider [215] Can exchange TL-HB for Reaper Autocannon for 5 points.

Chaos Land Raider Hellhammer - replaces each TL-LC with Hades Autocannon, replaces TL-HB with reaper cannon. Transport 14 [230]

Chaos Land Raider Butcherfiend - replace each TL-LC with 2x TL-HF, Replace TL-HB with Baleflamer. Transport 20 [250].

All Chaos Landraider variants have access to Greater Daemonic Possesion. Gives them Daemon USR, and any time a model is removed from a tank shock (gives reason to use destroyer blades ever) or causes HP from a ram, Raider gains a HP. (May raise HP above normal amount?) [15 points]


And for chaos vehicles in general, have posession be god-based. Change the normal omnomnom rule to be "gains IWND. If the vehicle fails the roll, it consumes a random non-character model, with no saves of any kind allowed. If the Models within the transport have the same alignment, they make take armor saves as normal. Opposed alignment [Khorne <-> Slaanesh, Nurgle <-> Tzeench] lose d3 models." 15 for initial posession, 10 more for alignment
Then add in Posession of ...
--Khorne: Counts its front armor as 2 higher for DoG / Ram purposes (max 15), Models with mark of Khorne count transports assault vehicle as long as it remain stationary. If already assault vehicle then it may move 12", though the models will have to pass Dangerous Terrain when assaulting.
--Slaanesh: Smoke launchers are 2 use, and grant models with MoS/DoS Stealth that are within 6" of vehicle. Transport gains 2 fireports for Sonic Weaponry. If it already has fireports, Sonic weapons always count as stationary.
--Nurgle: If first IWND roll is successful, may make a second that is successful on 6+. Grants MoN/DoN +1 to FNP within 6".
--Tzeench: All weapons have soul blaze, if warpflame gargoyles soublaze purchased, soublaze becomes d3+1 s4 AP3 hits.
------(a) Models with MoT/DoT embarked within may spend a warp charge to d3: (1) AP worsen by 1, str +1 (2) Ap improve by 1, Str +1 (3) Ap improve by 2, str +d3.
------(b) Models with MoT/DoT embarked count the transport as open topped for purposes of casting psychic powers. Psykers embarked generate an additional d2 warp charge.





**no-one gave any counterpoint aside from "you're a troll"

Didn't manage to catch you up yesterday.

I'm posting because you have replied to a couple of other threads and solicited feeback.

I have to offer my thoughts on drop pods (maybe reformat your current usage of "Chaos Drop pods," which is weirdly capitalized). Take remove them from dedicated transport and use them as squadrons of 1-2 or 1-3 in fast attack. This seems like a disadvantage, but it is very helpful by allowing the transported units to come in at the same time, since you do not have (and should not have) the drop pod assault.army rule. The disadvantage of having to use a fast attack slot is fairly fluffy, because unlike loyalists who live and breath drop pods, chaos armies do not always have the specialized ships that loyalists do, and do not always have the industrial capacity to use drop pods and abandon them, and do not always operate in a way that would allow them to recover used pods. Chaos space marines definitely use drop pods very frequently, but it is more of a special effort than for loyalists, for whom it is essentially a default position.

Maverike_prime wrote:
Unlike most of... well actually all of the other Chaos Codex revamp projects I've looked at, mine doesn't aim to 'fix' Codex: Chaos Space marines. In truth when and if my project is completed Codex: Chaos Space Marines will be completely replaced by a series of 3 books.

Given the units that you have posted, it is hard to say that you are not fixing codex:chaos space marines. For instance, your Thousand Sons rely on inferno bolts, which don't really appear anywhere except in the codex fourth edition and the current one. You have to understand, this has nothing to do with whether Inferno Bolts are bad or good or whether you should use them. I am only pointing out that it is a good thing to avoid "fixing" the codex, and you are not managing to avoid that.

The rules you use are adaptations purely of the codex. The models do not include anything that demands a specific type of ammunition, and the histories in the Index Astartes, Collected Visions, Black Library novels and Forge World books do not demand one either, e.g. "the emperor sent the space wolves to apprehend Magnus due to his use of Inferno bolts," or "Then Tzeentch appeared and offered Magnus this deal: pledge yourself to me and I will bestow upon you a special type of bolt round. They are not called for by fluff or by the models, the only origin for "inferno bolts" are that they come from the codex and and since you are using something that could only come from the codex, you are fixing that codex.

This is very much true in the case of raptors and warp talons. Warp talons are completely a product of the rules in the 6e codex. There has always been fluff that the old legions' jump-pack units became cults of bestial hunters fused with their armor. There have been rules representations of this (hit and run + daemonic visage units from 3.5 edition), but the raptor vs. warp talon dichotomy is something that appears only in the 6e codex and that you have appropriated completely, instead of making up something based on fluff and models.

Have I completely alienated you by now? I want to supply a specific piece of information after this point.

I want to use the example of the loyalist codex command squad and apothecary. The apothecary is included in there, since it is an instance of space marines as an institution. The command squad has a function inside the greater whole, and the army includes apothecaries as a provision for specific services. It's related to the way that a techmarine has one wound and a regular marine profile - he can get away with that because he can expect the other units in the army to assist him and protect him. The techmarine is there as a piece of infrastructure, as decreed from above, and he doesn't need any special qualities (special profile with extra wounds) or personal power base (HQ function or personal unit).

Then you come to your chaos chosen and their apothecary option, the corpse-taker. It seems like he is there for rules purposes. From a fluff perspective, it is not as solid as the loyalist command squad apothecary. The chaos apothecary, even in a hierarchy like the iron warriors or the word bearers, can very easily find himself a person of influence and part of a faction within the unit (grand company, chapter, warband). He certainly isn't a service providing member of the chosen, who are chosen and infamous men destined for glory instead of well integrated parts of a greater purpose.

It seems instead like the corpse-taker is there for rules-purposes. That is, there are some circumstances where you think that the unit would benefit from FNP. This is in itself bad, because it implies that the chosen without fnp are not always up to snuff and you added the narthecium option to amend their performance into adequacy. I'd rather that the chosen themselves were terrifying, mystically equipped killers, instead of a unit with rules wedged in there.

marrowick wrote:One of the things you always hear from people asking for a new codex is "Tzeentch's mark is terrible" or "This mark is useless for this unit" because of this I have decided that each mark of chaos will work differently for some units and because of this the ability granted by each mark shall be listed in the units profile.

I'm quoting this because it's an observation that's valuable and I want to show someone else making it. The actual lesson that is missing from that quote though. It is that marks, legion tactics, and veteran skills are rules for the sake of rules and will trip you up. When you do those things, you are forcing yourself to make a version for every faction, even if there are some factions for whom pasted-on special rules are not going to do it. With the example of loyalist chapter tactics, there are some that are wildly disparate in power, and some that are sort of slap dash (multiple extremely minor rules for Salamanders). You can try to balance them by charging points, but there are still cases where the mark of Phraz-etar costs eleven points per model and allows marines to move as cavalry with poisoned attacks in shooting and cc, and the mark of Ans'l which costs three points per squad and gives you immunity to Blind and also gives Soul Blaze. In that example, the mark of Ans'l doesn't even exist, you either go unmarked or you get Phraz-etar.

Actually, I should just have skipped to Soul Blaze. This is a rule that has no purpose and represents no wargear or model. The reason it exists is more or less that all the other powers had icons, and so some rules had to be made up for a Tzeentch one.

It's very important that there be rules for cult terminators, noise bikers, and berzerker bikers. Besides that, I urge you to abandon all thoughts of fabricating that can be bolted on to normal units.

For their points cost, I would like to see Plague Marines either have a 4+ FNP or a Re-roll for being pure Death Guard.

Nightlord1987 wrote:For their points cost, I would like to see Plague Marines either have a 4+ FNP or a Re-roll for being pure Death Guard.

for basic plague marines, you're going to need to give me a lot more explination as to how you come to the conclusion that they need a 4+ FNP. As for the other part... can you explain what you mean by 'pure death guard' ?

pelicaniforce wrote:I'm posting because you have replied to a couple of other threads and solicited feeback.
I have to offer my thoughts on drop pods (maybe reformat your current usage of "Chaos Drop pods," which is weirdly capitalized). Take remove them from dedicated transport and use them as squadrons of 1-2 or 1-3 in fast attack. This seems like a disadvantage, but it is very helpful by allowing the transported units to come in at the same time, since you do not have (and should not have) the drop pod assault.army rule. The disadvantage of having to use a fast attack slot is fairly fluffy, because unlike loyalists who live and breath drop pods, chaos armies do not always have the specialized ships that loyalists do, and do not always have the industrial capacity to use drop pods and abandon them, and do not always operate in a way that would allow them to recover used pods. Chaos space marines definitely use drop pods very frequently, but it is more of a special effort than for loyalists, for whom it is essentially a default position.

hmm, interesting take on the idea. Gonna mull over that a bit. Just off the top of my head, I'm actually really cool with the idea of limiting Drop Pods. Nice way to emulate Loyalists, while not copying them outright. I'm not sure about the option of chewing up Fast Attack slots for it though. Just a thought off the top of my head in response to this (and when I say off the top of my head I mean I literally thought of it while I was typing this response): Tie the availible of Drop pods in a Chaos Renegades army to the Warlord of the army. A purchasable trait perhaps. Will do some brain storming and post my thoughts.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:
Unlike most of... well actually all of the other Chaos Codex revamp projects I've looked at, mine doesn't aim to 'fix' Codex: Chaos Space marines. In truth when and if my project is completed Codex: Chaos Space Marines will be completely replaced by a series of 3 books.

Given the units that you have posted, it is hard to say that you are not fixing codex:chaos space marines. For instance, your Thousand Sons rely on inferno bolts, which don't really appear anywhere except in the codex fourth edition and the current one. You have to understand, this has nothing to do with whether Inferno Bolts are bad or good or whether you should use them. I am only pointing out that it is a good thing to avoid "fixing" the codex, and you are not managing to avoid that.


The rules you use are adaptations purely of the codex. The models do not include anything that demands a specific type of ammunition, and the histories in the Index Astartes, Collected Visions, Black Library novels and Forge World books do not demand one either, e.g. "the emperor sent the space wolves to apprehend Magnus due to his use of Inferno bolts," or "Then Tzeentch appeared and offered Magnus this deal: pledge yourself to me and I will bestow upon you a special type of bolt round. They are not called for by fluff or by the models, the only origin for "inferno bolts" are that they come from the codex and and since you are using something that could only come from the codex, you are fixing that codex.

I understand the details you're referencing about Inferno bolts, but I'm afraid I don't under stand the relevance of the details to your statement as it relates to Thousand Sons. No, Magnus didn't make use of Inferno bolts and no Tzeentch didn't offer them to the Thousand Sons in exchange for their servitude. based on the fluff, you can't even really make a case that the Thousands actually even work for Tzeentch the way the other cult troops do. In a lot of ways the unit Thousand Sons is the anti-thesis of Tzeentch. Tzeentch is all about plans and change. The Thousand Sons are literally the opposite of that. They are unchanging, unplanning (The Thousand Sons themselves, not the war lords and sorcerers) and unthinking magically powered automatons. So going strictly by the fluff it would hold to form that Thousand Sons should be I1 Space Marines either with FNP or Multi-wounds and would probably be about the same point as vanilla marines. And I'll be honest, I look at that and I see the same problem I have with the basic Berzerkers. I'd rather just take standard Chaos Marines because they're more versatile. That just kind of makes me want to drop Thousand Sons entirely from the codex. I am also curious as to why you're so focused on the Inferno bolts when on the current version of them, they haven't changed one bit from the Chaos Space Marines Codex.

As for the other part about fixing/not-fixing the current codex, I think you're honestly just splitting hairs to be difficult. I've spelled out, multiple times, in multiple locations, what the direction I am taking with this project and how what is currently the Chaos Space Marines Codex most closely lines up with the part of the project I've laid out to be Codex: Chaos Renegades. So, yeah I'm gonna start with the work that has already been done. If you want to describe that as "fixing the current codex" well, that's you're choice and I can't help much with that. I don't agree that I'm 'fixing' the current codex.

pelicaniforce wrote:
This is very much true in the case of raptors and warp talons. Warp talons are completely a product of the rules in the 6e codex. There has always been fluff that the old legions' jump-pack units became cults of bestial hunters fused with their armor. There have been rules representations of this (hit and run + daemonic visage units from 3.5 edition), but the raptor vs. warp talon dichotomy is something that appears only in the 6e codex and that you have appropriated completely, instead of making up something based on fluff and models.

Have I completely alienated you by now? I want to supply a specific piece of information after this point.

Nope. Not even remotely close to alienating me. Frankly, you haven't even shown up on my "annoying person" radar yet. That being said. The Raptor/Warp Talon point is a valid one, and an annoyance I share with the units. But I can also only see three options with them:

1- Remove one of the units entirely. of the two, Warp Talons seem the more likely candidate to be removed.
-- I don't want to do this because there's a model kit specifically labeled "Warp Talons".
2- Start with one unit and provide an option to upgrade to the other, while remove the 2nd unit as a stand alone option. For sake of discussion we'll say that Raptors are the basic unit, while Warp Talons become a specialized upgrade to the unit. This is more appealing then the first option but providing an option to upgrade one unit into another unit that is that different from the original unit comes with it's own host of problems, not the least of being making the Warp Talons actually usable.
3- Leave them as is. Which would kind of defeat the entire point of this discussion. So lets just put this one under the "Yeah, talked about it and decided against it" category.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I want to use the example of the loyalist codex command squad and apothecary. The apothecary is included in there, since it is an instance of space marines as an institution. The command squad has a function inside the greater whole, and the army includes apothecaries as a provision for specific services. It's related to the way that a techmarine has one wound and a regular marine profile - he can get away with that because he can expect the other units in the army to assist him and protect him. The techmarine is there as a piece of infrastructure, as decreed from above, and he doesn't need any special qualities (special profile with extra wounds) or personal power base (HQ function or personal unit).

Then you come to your chaos chosen and their apothecary option, the corpse-taker. It seems like he is there for rules purposes. From a fluff perspective, it is not as solid as the loyalist command squad apothecary. The chaos apothecary, even in a hierarchy like the iron warriors or the word bearers, can very easily find himself a person of influence and part of a faction within the unit (grand company, chapter, warband). He certainly isn't a service providing member of the chosen, who are chosen and infamous men destined for glory instead of well integrated parts of a greater purpose.

It seems instead like the corpse-taker is there for rules-purposes. That is, there are some circumstances where you think that the unit would benefit from FNP. This is in itself bad, because it implies that the chosen without fnp are not always up to snuff and you added the narthecium option to amend their performance into adequacy. I'd rather that the chosen themselves were terrifying, mystically equipped killers, instead of a unit with rules wedged in there.

erm... no. Read the Badab war fluff. the Traitor marines had groups of apothecaries who's duty was to scour the battlefield of dead/dying Space Marines and harvest their gene seed for use by the Astral Claws. So I took that idea and re-vamped it a bit to fit more with the assembled war-band direction I'm taking Chaos Renegades. In the current meta-game I am exceedingly loath to create a one-person unit, particularly one that takes up an elite or HQ slot. There are simply too many other units in those sections that when compared to a single person unit will be taken over them no matter what benefits they bring to the unit they join. So the Chosen have the option to take a Corpse taker, while the chosen themselves can be used as retinue for the Chaos Lord himself.

pelicaniforce wrote:

marrowick wrote:One of the things you always hear from people asking for a new codex is "Tzeentch's mark is terrible" or "This mark is useless for this unit" because of this I have decided that each mark of chaos will work differently for some units and because of this the ability granted by each mark shall be listed in the units profile.

I'm quoting this because it's an observation that's valuable and I want to show someone else making it. The actual lesson that is missing from that quote though. It is that marks, legion tactics, and veteran skills are rules for the sake of rules and will trip you up. When you do those things, you are forcing yourself to make a version for every faction, even if there are some factions for whom pasted-on special rules are not going to do it. With the example of loyalist chapter tactics, there are some that are wildly disparate in power, and some that are sort of slap dash (multiple extremely minor rules for Salamanders). You can try to balance them by charging points, but there are still cases where the mark of Phraz-etar costs eleven points per model and allows marines to move as cavalry with poisoned attacks in shooting and cc, and the mark of Ans'l which costs three points per squad and gives you immunity to Blind and also gives Soul Blaze. In that example, the mark of Ans'l doesn't even exist, you either go unmarked or you get Phraz-etar.

Actually, I should just have skipped to Soul Blaze. This is a rule that has no purpose and represents no wargear or model. The reason it exists is more or less that all the other powers had icons, and so some rules had to be made up for a Tzeentch one.

'cept Mark of Tzeentch doesn't grant the use of Soul blaze, and there are other attacks out side of Codex: Chaos Space Marines that make use of the rule. So... while it may have been created for Thousand Sons and the Banner of... whatever it is. I can't think of the name right now, how does that mean anything to the validity of the rule and it can exceedingly easily be used to represent a piece of wargear. It's actually really really close to the 2nd Ed flamer rules.

pelicaniforce wrote:
It's very important that there be rules for cult terminators, noise bikers, and berzerker bikers. Besides that, I urge you to abandon all thoughts of fabricating that can be bolted on to normal units.

... I'll be honest, I don't know how to respond to that, beyond pointing you at the Codex: Books of Chaos section of the project.

StarHunter25 wrote:From another thread on Chaos Land Raiders, here was my nifty idea that no-one disagreed with **
Regular Chaos Landraider [215] Can exchange TL-HB for Reaper Autocannon for 5 points.
Chaos Land Raider Hellhammer - replaces each TL-LC with Hades Autocannon, replaces TL-HB with reaper cannon. Transport 14 [230]
Chaos Land Raider Butcherfiend - replace each TL-LC with 2x TL-HF, Replace TL-HB with Baleflamer. Transport 20 [250].
All Chaos Landraider variants have access to Greater Daemonic Possesion. Gives them Daemon USR, and any time a model is removed from a tank shock (gives reason to use destroyer blades ever) or causes HP from a ram, Raider gains a HP. (May raise HP above normal amount?) [15 points]

replacing the Heavy bolters with Reaper Autocannons is pretty straight forward and simple. Can't think of any reason why not to include the option. There's even bits for it.
Replacing the LasCannons with Hades Autocannon... hmm interesting idea. Will mull it over some.
Replacing the LasCannons with TL-Heavy Flamers and the heavy bolters with BaleFlamers... this is basically recreating the same issue I have with the Redeemer and indeed it's entire existance. Why was it made? It doesn't actually do anything that the Crusader doesn't already do. the AP3 flamers are nice, but the range of the Bolters give it pretty comparable damage potential. The Butcherfiend is an interesting start of an idea I want to see it developed some more.

The Greater possession I really like.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
For their points cost, I would like to see Plague Marines either have a 4+ FNP or a Re-roll for being pure Death Guard.

I agree with Maverike. Though I have played around with giving them the shrouded special rule due to fluff saying the are accompanied by a cloud of flies that obscures them.

@Maverike: Do you still need help with Voobly? I haven't received a PM yet. I'll also try to get the rest of the designs up soon life has made very busy lately.

Maverike_prime wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:I'm posting because you have replied to a couple of other threads and solicited feeback.
I have to offer my thoughts on drop pods (maybe reformat your current usage of "Chaos Drop pods," which is weirdly capitalized). Take remove them from dedicated transport and use them as squadrons of 1-2 or 1-3 in fast attack. This seems like a disadvantage, but it is very helpful by allowing the transported units to come in at the same time, since you do not have (and should not have) the drop pod assault.army rule. The disadvantage of having to use a fast attack slot is fairly fluffy, because unlike loyalists who live and breath drop pods, chaos armies do not always have the specialized ships that loyalists do, and do not always have the industrial capacity to use drop pods and abandon them, and do not always operate in a way that would allow them to recover used pods. Chaos space marines definitely use drop pods very frequently, but it is more of a special effort than for loyalists, for whom it is essentially a default position.

hmm, interesting take on the idea. Gonna mull over that a bit. Just off the top of my head, I'm actually really cool with the idea of limiting Drop Pods. Nice way to emulate Loyalists, while not copying them outright. I'm not sure about the option of chewing up Fast Attack slots for it though. Just a thought off the top of my head in response to this (and when I say off the top of my head I mean I literally thought of it while I was typing this response): Tie the availible of Drop pods in a Chaos Renegades army to the Warlord of the army. A purchasable trait perhaps. Will do some brain storming and post my thoughts.

Well, there is a use for that kind of purchasable trait. It means that if you take buy one trait, it prevents you from taking any other trait. This is very popular in the forgeworld Heresy books. In those armies, you can take a trait that provides deep strike for everything, but that means you can't take the trait that allows veterans as troops, or the trait that allows extra tanks.

However, if there is no trait involved and you just put drop pod squadrons in fast attack, it has a similar effect: if you take 5 drop pods, you can't take as many bikers. This also allows you to avoid another appendix at the front of the army list (here is a list of traits the army can have). It means fewer caveats and explanations for the opponent.

erm... no. Read the Badab war fluff. the Traitor marines had groups of apothecaries who's duty was to scour the battlefield of dead/dying Space Marines and harvest their gene seed for use by the Astral Claws. In the current meta-game I am exceedingly loath to create a one-person unit, particularly one that takes up an elite or HQ slot.

There isn't anything for you to tell me no about. Chaos marines have apothecaries. Your chaos apothecaries are just tacked on. The decision by a player of your codex to take them in the unit is completely arbitrary. There is nothing associating apothecaries with chosen the way apothecaries are associated with command squads.

In a warband, an apothecary would have power. If the Lord asks him to do something (like your example of Badab) he can make demands that have to be met to keep him from joining a different warband. Would a loyalist apothecary do that? No, he's part of a uniformed service, that's why apothecaries serve in command squads.

The place for a chaos apothecary is as an upgrade option from a squad leader in troops. A chaos apothecary is both a valuable resource and a powerful player; he gets a squad of marines to command that fluffwise are either his personal underlings or a bodyguard bestowed on him by a lord.

I'm not sure why you mentioned independent characters, you're right that that would be silly.

pelicaniforce wrote:

marrowick wrote:One of the things you always hear from people asking for a new codex is "Tzeentch's mark is terrible" or "This mark is useless for this unit" because of this I have decided that each mark of chaos will work differently for some units and because of this the ability granted by each mark shall be listed in the units profile.

I'm quoting this because it's an observation that's valuable and I want to show someone else making it. The actual lesson that is missing from that quote though. It is that marks, legion tactics, and veteran skills are rules for the sake of rules and will trip you up. When you do those things, you are forcing yourself to make a version for every faction, even if there are some factions for whom pasted-on special rules are not going to do it. With the example of loyalist chapter tactics, there are some that are wildly disparate in power, and some that are sort of slap dash (multiple extremely minor rules for Salamanders). You can try to balance them by charging points, but there are still cases where the mark of Phraz-etar costs eleven points per model and allows marines to move as cavalry with poisoned attacks in shooting and cc, and the mark of Ans'l which costs three points per squad and gives you immunity to Blind and also gives Soul Blaze. In that example, the mark of Ans'l doesn't even exist, you either go unmarked or you get Phraz-etar.

Actually, I should just have skipped to Soul Blaze. This is a rule that has no purpose and represents no wargear or model. The reason it exists is more or less that all the other powers had icons, and so some rules had to be made up for a Tzeentch one.

'cept Mark of Tzeentch doesn't grant the use of Soul blaze, and there are other attacks out side of Codex: Chaos Space Marines that make use of the rule. So... while it may have been created for Thousand Sons and the Banner of... whatever it is. I can't think of the name right now, how does that mean anything to the validity of the rule and it can exceedingly easily be used to represent a piece of wargear. It's actually really really close to the 2nd Ed flamer rules.

I'm trying to tell you something here.

That icon that gives Soul Blaze is an example. Every time there are a set of options like icons, part of the set are going to make sense (icon of rage? sure ok) and some that were clearly just thrown together because the other three gods had one (tzeentch, tzeentch. we'll give it... soul blaze? whatever)

I'm really discouraging you from making any kind of optional god-related upgrades. I feel vastly better when making a mono-god army using generic troop units and full-on cult units than I do the very desultory marks and icons (and vehicle dedications). If I don't take the upgrade, you are not going to tell me the units aren't worshipers, and if I do take the upgrade then I have some extra rules that really don't improve my game.

No, I know you can try really hard to make all the marks good. You're not getting it. Having a dumb upgrade does not make slaanesh troops more slaaneshi or tzeentch models more tzeentchian.

Yes, you're right, you do need need to have a proper "marked" Lord to go with his cult Berzeker underlings, and terminators to support them. But, you should remove from the rest of the codex any reference to "may take a mark, may take an icon, may dedicate, this is what marks do, this is what icons do, etc" because that will actually allow for more energy and space for the marked lords, and the cult units, and for the cult terminator units.



It was the Icon of Flame, btw.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Replacing the LasCannons with Hades Autocannon... hmm interesting idea. Will mull it over some.
Replacing the LasCannons with TL-Heavy Flamers and the heavy bolters with BaleFlamers... this is basically recreating the same issue I have with the Redeemer and indeed it's entire existance. Why was it made? It doesn't actually do anything that the Crusader doesn't already do. the AP3 flamers are nice, but the range of the Bolters give it pretty comparable damage potential.

I'm not going to get into Land Raiders, but I think it would be really nice if all bale flamers were just heavy flamers and all hades autocannons were... not gamed out to be ap3 and were just autocannons. Like, clearly they have more shots so heavy4, or heavy1+d6, but they are definitely autocannons. They look a bit like assault cannons, maybe they are autocannons with heavy 4 rending? I think that for the Redeemer's flamestorm cannons that TL heavy flamer would be fine, just for context. Not all the things need to have special things. A heavy flamer is pretty gosh darn good.

Rename Codex: Kaay-Os Speesh Mah-Reen to codex: Cultist.

Seriously the codex is a gakky joke. Waste of paper and ink to be sold for $45.

Remove all cult troops. No more plague, noise, tsons, or kb. No cult troops, no cult problems. Also remove possesed and chosen. They are overcosted and useless anyways.

Drop all marks and icon as they are all over costed and useless.

The land raider sucks. Just remove all guns and increase carry capacity and reduce costs. The land raiders suggested with bale flmers and autocannons are overpowered.

Just delete mutilators aswell.