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I think what gorgon said is true. Not a great moment for the community. Too, I must admit, I'm one of the "sky is falling" guys.

I'm trying to hold my judgment on the new book until I have it in my hands, but I must say that I am very skeptical. GW may have just hit on the fan-boy free-base business plan though with the ongoing rules changes and additions.

I also must admit that I am one of the "can't think out of the box" guys too. It's a game. Games have rules... "this isn't 'nam Dude."

I think that most of us sincerely wanted a fix to the unbalanced allies buffs and nigh on invincible units dominating the meta for the last 3-6 months. The first taste was "battle forged" and "unbound." This seemed to come out of left field and hence the nerd-rage / geek-dispair. They're profit driven not product driven. Have they changed since I bought my first GW stuff back in the early 1990s? I doubt it. Will we see a decline in their profits? I doubt it. Will we see a decline in player base? I suspect, yes.

*sigh* THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

This wait is going to be killer, need more 'leaks.'

I'll stick with 6th. I actually like it, but understand the misgivings. Then again, I only play with my wife and we're pretty casual about things.

7th just seems unnecessary and, if these rumors are true, it's taking things in a direction I can only see as bad for the game.

Some sort of army structure is necessary and has been in place since 2nd edition (when I started). Making it "official" to just bring whatever you like is a blatant way to encourage sales of their biggest, most expensive kits at the expense of a sensible ruleset (and at $100 it is quite an expense!).

Like I say, it won't affect me, but I feel sad that this is the route that GW is deciding to take.

jamesk1973 wrote:
My thoughts on the rumor concerning the "free" .pdf upgrade of your 6th edition rulebook to 6.5/7 is NOT an upgrade to the rulebook (BRB) per se.

Rather, a whole set of "new" FAQs bringing all of the existing codexes/dataslates/supplements into line with 7th edition rules.

I believe we saw something similar when 6th edition dropped.

To the folks that think they are going to be screwed over by the psychic phase because there army does not have psykers...

I believe you will still get to participate in the psychic phase. Obviously you are not going to get to CAST powers but you will get a pool of points to resist psychic powers with.

Whether you will get the chance to prevent your opponent from casting "blessing" type powers is obviously up in the air.

However, even psychically "null" races have a chance to prevent offensive powers or maledictions from affecting them.

Being able to stop blessing would remove the reliability of many deathstars that are currently out there right now, and something I wouldn't mind seeing. Screamerstar casting forewarning? Seercouncil casting fortune? Deny dat shizz! From what it sounds like, this will be an interesting game of "which psychic powers do I cast first" in an attempt to get your opponent to waste his dice denying or activating something that ends up working to your benefit. A perils of the warp table is also something I am interested in, simply taking a wound never fit with the fluff and if there are effects that can hurt the rest of a squad I will have a legitimate fluffy reason to bring commissars with primaris psykers. I'm still terrified that it will be a poorly written piece of crap but I think the new system, from the tiny blurb we've (supposedly) confirmed, this could work to balance out some of the more ridiculous things in the game right now.

 Steve steveson wrote:



It seems to me most of the complaining is coming from people who are worried about tournaments (who will ban unbound army's if they don't work) and people who play with strangers. Many people who play with groups seem to be enthusiastic about these new rules. I know I am. I also know there is one person who won't be, he is also the one person in the group who list tailors, plays WAAC lists and math hammers the hell out of everything. Personally I think this is an edition for people who want a narrative war game rather than a competitive game. A game that gives you structure to do what you want, rather than a strict rules set that may ban you from doing many things.

I have much less problems with playing against an unbound list that I did against a perfectly legal Drago Star in 5th that just stomped anything I put down on the table.

But I'm not a tournement player and never really had a desire to do one. It's the pick up game that's going to hurt me and people like me. I go to the store for a game and the only one there is a guy with eight heldrakes and his four landraiders, its either get cubstomped in two turns or don't play. Neither sounds any fun.

As for the legal cheese of 6th, that was the problem. We wanted that stuff curtailed, not embraced with open arms by "Unbound."

jamesk1973 wrote:
My thoughts on the rumor concerning the "free" .pdf upgrade of your 6th edition rulebook to 6.5/7 is NOT an upgrade to the rulebook (BRB) per se.

Rather, a whole set of "new" FAQs bringing all of the existing codexes/dataslates/supplements into line with 7th edition rules.

I believe we saw something similar when 6th edition dropped.

To the folks that think they are going to be screwed over by the psychic phase because there army does not have psykers...

I believe you will still get to participate in the psychic phase. Obviously you are not going to get to CAST powers but you will get a pool of points to resist psychic powers with.

Whether you will get the chance to prevent your opponent from casting "blessing" type powers is obviously up in the air.

However, even psychically "null" races have a chance to prevent offensive powers or maledictions from affecting them.

It obviously depends on the exact mechanics, but the existence of a dispel pool POTENTIALLY gives you a better chance to stop that ONE power that frightens you.

I would quite appreciate some Close combat tweeks.

Wishlisting would be deepstrike/drop pod assaulting for assault vets/elites.

you could drop pod in and then roll 3 dice picking the lowest for charge range for instance, that to me seems more fluffy, these guys are well rehearsed in assault warfare so would likely be trained in charging out of drop pods/jump packs in etc the three dice represent that its a hard thing to do.

Right, I'm off to scratch build 60 buggies and a warboss in a hockey mask.

I wonder if my current set of psychic cards will still be valid with the next edition.

 optometris wrote:
I would quite appreciate some Close combat tweeks.

Wishlisting would be deepstrike/drop pod assaulting for assault vets/elites.

you could drop pod in and then roll 3 dice picking the lowest for charge range for instance, that to me seems more fluffy, these guys are well rehearsed in assault warfare so would likely be trained in charging out of drop pods/jump packs in etc the three dice represent that its a hard thing to do.

Who cares if the rules don't allow it? Build your own narative and do what you want. GW is telling us that there are no "rules" to army creation, so why bother with limiting yourself to anything that is in an over priced $100 book?

jamesk1973 wrote:

To the folks that think they are going to be screwed over by the psychic phase because there army does not have psykers...
I believe you will still get to participate in the psychic phase. Obviously you are not going to get to CAST powers but you will get a pool of points to resist psychic powers with.
Whether you will get the chance to prevent your opponent from casting "blessing" type powers is obviously up in the air.
However, even psychically "null" races have a chance to prevent offensive powers or maledictions from affecting them.

I just want to be clear my comments before were not meant in a "sky is falling" manner, nor do I think my SoB will be "screwed over" by the psychic phase. I was comparing it to Dwarves in WHFB regarding the Magic Phase.

Basically, for 99% of Dwarf Armies, that phase might as well not exist during their turn. Sure, you get to defend during your OPPONENT'S phase, but that's not really the same as playing the phase yourself. I simply find the whole thing slightly humerous, as well as wondering what exactly abilities like Adamantium Will will do in 7th E. (Assuming that they survive into 7th, of course). I was also pointing out the somewhat ironic nature that armies that hate Psykers the most (Necrons, BT, SoB, Khornate) suddenly have FAR less defense against it. Because dice pools are built by d6 + total ML of your psykers, they are stuck with just d6; again, depending on any changes to Adamantium Will wrt: BT and SoB. Necrons and Khornate armies, who don't currently get that rule universally on their units, will literally have the weakest psychic defense in the game. (Again, pending any other possible changes.)

Funny to me, that's all.

Could they be moving the story forward...?

The Emperor is dead.

The Imperium is falling.

The Adeptus Astartes are fracturing into groups focused on either saving the Imperium as a whole or safeguarding their own backyard.

Could lend some credence to why there is a "new" allies matrix and the option to play "unbound".

Ad hoc forces joining together across multiple factions with whatever forces they have at their disposal. Because the astral beacon has fallen silent...

As well as the option to replay "historic" battles. Battles that consisted of units that were unable to comply with the FOC for some reason. Tailored strike forces or the surviving units of a failed offensive fighting a desperate retreat?

As well as getting the be TFG and bring a list of entirely FMC deathstar 2++ rerollable spam virus...

Forge Your Narrative!

 Squidbot wrote:
Right, I'm off to scratch build 60 buggies and a warboss in a hockey mask.

Honestly, when it comes to the idea of making an Unbound army, it's hard to tell if I'm more intrigued by Orks or Tyranids.

 Squidbot wrote:
Right, I'm off to scratch build 60 buggies and a warboss in a hockey mask.

OUTLANDER!


With that out of the way, I'm tentatively intrigued by the "Unbound" rules. This could be the excuse I've needed to get my painting shifted into gear for some projects I've had just sitting around unbuilt in boxes for some time. Stealth Teams and Pathfinders with no Fire Warriors or XV8s? Oh yes...

 Steve steveson wrote:

It seems to me most of the complaining is coming from people who are worried about tournaments (who will ban unbound army's if they don't work) and people who play with strangers. Many people who play with groups seem to be enthusiastic about these new rules. I know I am. I also know there is one person who won't be, he is also the one person in the group who list tailors, plays WAAC lists and math hammers the hell out of everything. Personally I think this is an edition for people who want a narrative war game rather than a competitive game. A game that gives you structure to do what you want, rather than a strict rules set that may ban you from doing many things.

I have much less problems with playing against an unbound list that I did against a perfectly legal Drago Star in 5th that just stomped anything I put down on the table.

How can you possibly say that and then think... "This problem is going to get better if we remove *all* restrictions!"
It's like... "Oh man, banking rules and regulations aren't doing enough to stop corrupt banks from taking people's money and houses - we should give them the option to operate with NO rules and regulations - that should balance things out."

There's like this weird idea that Unbound is only for people who just want to play fun fluffy armies and it was made just for them so that they can finally compete against that one WAAC guy at their club. You don't think a player who wants to literally Win At Any Cost isn't going to embrace Moneyhammer Pay to Win edition? If it becomes clear that Unbound is the way everyone at the club wants to play, they'll break it in half so fast it'll make your head spin.

Don't get me wrong - I fully believe most people will simply ignore unbound and continue playing 40k - the bigger and much scarier problem is, as others have mentioned, we're dealing with a company who either don't understand their own rules, or just don't care.

The inherent problem is that as 40K has evolved over the last few years GW have become more obsessed with making (and selling) big kits and less interested in foot soldiers. They've basically recreated Epic at 28mm scale.

Some people are into this, others want 40K to go back to what it was designed to be i.e. a skirmish game.

Consequently GW are coming up with increasingly dumb ways to try and mesh the two together, so that they can keep both sets of customers happy.

It isn't working

Why is everyone complaining about unbound so hard?

In war today we only send in the best tools for the job. If that means we send on a few B-1's screaming overhead for a strafing run without any infantry or tanks then so be it because the only tool we need for the job is those B-1's.

The FoC is more akin to a full on deployment which as we know isn't what Warhammer 40k is. It is a bunch of skirmishes. So why not bring only the tools for the job? What's the point of bringing infantry in when the opponent has flamers? Why send in the troops if you know they are going to just get slaughtered on the first turn by a drop pod harboring a flamer dreadnought? Unbound is a show of force which we use in every modern day war. Why should the future have reverted? It's about time they "caught up" with our tactics.

All of these rumors point to GW being too dumb to fix their own ruleset and balance the game. I'd love every game developer for GW to have to participate in at least 1 GT every year.

If the rules gets too stupid, it'll be TOs and club managers writing the rules now.

 Xerics wrote:


In war today we only send in the best tools for the job..

Warhammer 40k isn't reality.

Games have rules, unlike reality.

Hence why Unbound is getting a lot of (rightful) flak.

I can't get past the idea that GW is telling us "there are no rules, forge your own narrative....except for the rules in this $100 book. These are how you forge it."

Feth that.

I have 200 metal tallarns that now are carrying D weapons. I know , I know, they look like lasguns, but really....my narrative...its the D.

There's also another reason I'm moving away from GW. I'm simply not willing to cope with a new rule book every 2 years. I liked the supplements and new smaller codices (not the prices though) But all that coupled with a new edition is too much. I simply don't want to learn a new rule set every two years. Maybe if it fixed the problems and actually was a better game for it, maybe. I know this is only one time, but its a symptom of a much larger problem.
And that problem is: GW has no clue what they're doing.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xerics wrote:


In war today we only send in the best tools for the job..

Warhammer 40k isn't reality.

Games have rules, unlike reality.

Hence why Unbound is getting a lot of (rightful) flak.

Real life does have rules. Ever hear of the Geneva Conventions?

 Xerics wrote:


Real life does have rules. Ever hear of the Geneva Conventions?

There's a very distinct difference between laws and game rules.

I hope you can see the difference.

 Xerics wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xerics wrote:


In war today we only send in the best tools for the job..

Warhammer 40k isn't reality.

Games have rules, unlike reality.

Hence why Unbound is getting a lot of (rightful) flak.

Real life does have rules. Ever hear of the Geneva Conventions?

Because forces that don't operate by the Geneva Convention automatically lose the war, right? That's why Central African warlords don't get games, and why Syria is such a peaceful place. I mean, Chemical Weapons are cheating right, so war over?

 rabidguineapig wrote:

Being able to stop blessing would remove the reliability of many deathstars that are currently out there right now, and something I wouldn't mind seeing. Screamerstar casting forewarning? Seercouncil casting fortune? Deny dat shizz! From what it sounds like, this will be an interesting game of "which psychic powers do I cast first" in an attempt to get your opponent to waste his dice denying or activating something that ends up working to your benefit. A perils of the warp table is also something I am interested in, simply taking a wound never fit with the fluff and if there are effects that can hurt the rest of a squad I will have a legitimate fluffy reason to bring commissars with primaris psykers. I'm still terrified that it will be a poorly written piece of crap but I think the new system, from the tiny blurb we've (supposedly) confirmed, this could work to balance out some of the more ridiculous things in the game right now.

Too true.

Unbound or battle-forged, I will not put my army on the table if my opponent pulls out a screamerstar. I'll just tell him, "You win! Who is next?". I have been the abused spouse against that list for too long!

 Blacksails wrote:
Games have rules, unlike reality.

Wait....reality doesn't have rules? Then where the heck are my superpowers!?

I'm kidding of course, I just thought the statement was kind of funny.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xerics wrote:


Real life does have rules. Ever hear of the Geneva Conventions?

There's a very distinct difference between laws and game rules.

I hope you can see the difference.

I know the difference very well. Laws are very akin to rules. When your parents tell you that you have to be home by a certain time thats the rules and they are treated as law as long as you are living under him. Murder someone? Break the rules of life/laws then you go to jail (or in some states we will kill you back). Life is a game played on hardcore. There is no redo's, No extra lives. No GM to save you. Every choice has a consequence. Life has rules. They may be called laws but they are rules all the same.

 Xerics wrote:
Why is everyone complaining about unbound so hard?

In war today we only send in the best tools for the job. If that means we send on a few B-1's screaming overhead for a strafing run without any infantry or tanks then so be it because the only tool we need for the job is those B-1's.

The FoC is more akin to a full on deployment which as we know isn't what Warhammer 40k is. It is a bunch of skirmishes. So why not bring only the tools for the job? What's the point of bringing infantry in when the opponent has flamers? Why send in the troops if you know they are going to just get slaughtered on the first turn by a drop pod harboring a flamer dreadnought? Unbound is a show of force which we use in every modern day war. Why should the future have reverted? It's about time they "caught up" with our tactics.

This can be said about so many aspects of this game, trying to compare 40k to real life military tactics will send you into cardiac arrest. Also, who do you think will actually use this rule to make the game more realistic from a strategic standpoint?

 RobZie wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Why is everyone complaining about unbound so hard?

In war today we only send in the best tools for the job. If that means we send on a few B-1's screaming overhead for a strafing run without any infantry or tanks then so be it because the only tool we need for the job is those B-1's.

The FoC is more akin to a full on deployment which as we know isn't what Warhammer 40k is. It is a bunch of skirmishes. So why not bring only the tools for the job? What's the point of bringing infantry in when the opponent has flamers? Why send in the troops if you know they are going to just get slaughtered on the first turn by a drop pod harboring a flamer dreadnought? Unbound is a show of force which we use in every modern day war. Why should the future have reverted? It's about time they "caught up" with our tactics.

This can be said about so many aspects of this game, trying to compare 40k to real life military tactics will send you into cardiac arrest. Also, who do you think will actually use this rule to make the game more realistic from a strategic standpoint?

I would. No point in taking guardians against a drop pod marine army. I would only bring the best tools for the job. Because thats how it is supposed to work. Not limiting you to have to spend points on units that are just going to get slaughtered. Warhammer 40k players would make terrible generals (for the most part).

I'm sure it has been said before but i'll bring it up again, as this ad-infinitum wailing over a perceived 'broken' rules system (unbound armies) is quite prevalent here.

Competitive events will establish the types of lists that are allowed to participate, much as they do right now. When 6th came out, many tournaments went to a 1999+1 system to avoid double FOC. As more and more allies have come out, tournaments have been implementing a "2 book" rule for army lists. With the advent of 7th and Unbound, we will see many tournaments advertise they are "Battle Forged only " events.

As far as having the rules in the book - perhaps the battle forged bonus vs unbound is quite substantial. Extra VP's, free shooting attacks, extra psychic dice -- we just don't know right now. That's the crux of the argument - nobody knows yet (or the ones that do aren't talking -40Kradio-).

No matter what game system GW gives us, or what time frame they release it in, players WILL break the game. Look at the current meta of deathstars with 2++ rerollable saves.

I'm eager to see the changes, with the hope that assault has been buffed back to some of it's former glory. The mission cards intrigue me - i like having different ways to win missions, because that's extra chances to out-think my opponents.

I will echo the statement that this tiny leak isn't enough, however - we need more pages from that white dwarf, maybe there's more discussion regarding 7th in there somewhere. Whoever's got a copy - enlighten us!