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 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

You do know play testing can determine if you need to exclude things from the rules or not, right?

Not if that exclusion is based solely of historical fluff reasons and not game balance ones, because that is the only practical difference here.

Chad Warden wrote:
Why play Daemons if everyone can use them now?

Oh well maybe we'll finally get a plastic Greater or two to help hype things.

So this means that Daemons are either the second most or most capable of allying? Darn. Also imagine the amount of psyker rolls you'd need for this. You'd need to summon a daemon then roll for their spells. I wonder how it works with the allies chart.

Also in the daemonhunters codex there were rules for any opponent to bring/summon daemon packs and greater daemons with random statlines, or you could just just daemons from codex: chaos space marines (before there was a daemon codex).

 StarTrotter wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I just thought it took an exceedingly high amount of skill and power to summon any daemons you would want. Chaos gods aren't really in the business of answering mortal's requests the way they would like.

Now, I'm sure GW will address this by giving Daemonology a D6 table of daemons you can summon, but still I'm not entirely positive that the mechanism (being whatever it is) will fit the fluff. Especially considering any of these psykers summoning daemons are on their first (and only) try doing so.

Hopefully a 2-12 or 4-24 table that ranges from turning into a pile of bubbling goo to becoming Skarbrand.

It's also funny that unless they include the rules for all these Daemons we will supposedly be able to summon in the rulebook itself, pretty much everyone wanting to do this will have to buy a Daemon dex.

Perhaps THAT is the price you pay if you're not already playing Daemons?

Psssht. It'll probably be something like roll a d6! Primaris is troops, 1 is heavy, 2 is elite, 3 is heavy, and, if you roll multiple dice aboce what you normally should, thus increasing the risks, you get a HQ option. On top of that, you must roll 2d6. On 1-3 it is Slaanesh, 4-6 is nurgle, 7-9 is khorne, and 9-12 is Tzeentch because as soon as they think of Chaos they can't help but wet themselves on the idea of extra random tables.

But Phil Kelly isn't writing rules right now.

 gorgon wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

Try reading the last 10 pages then as the reasons have been explained already. Maybe in your neck of the woods gamers get together for tea and sing kumbaya around the campfire while exchanging friendship bracelets and sharing their inner most hopes and dreams for the grimdark future games about to be played but in other places you simply meet a stranger and agree to a game in one sentence. That stranger could have vastly different expectations of what that game will entail (or not entail) and a "buy everything" permissive as standard ruleset exacerbates that.

Eh, he just doesn't understand how the vast majority of 40k games are played at local game stores against an endless line of unreasonable strangers with whom every conversation becomes something akin to a nuclear arms treaty negotiation.

I mean, I can *barely* even agree to a points value with these unbending mystery men without creating ugly scenes in stores and fistfights in the alley.

I think this is deflecting the issue a bit.

Obviously, the problem won't be in deal with unreasonable TFGs trying to make your gaming experience hell, they *still* won't get games in. The issues will be in the shades-of-grey areas when people come in with Unbound lists you feel are cheesy but they feel are not. I am worried about increasing levels of disagreement between players on the games they want to play that will lead to higher levels of dissatisfaction in the 40k gaming population.

EDIT: geez I'm slow, the comment I was responding to is already a page behind!

Its probably pretty easy to summon greater demons, I mean that would sell a lot more so its the obvious choice for GW.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I was not even familiar with you previous avatar, and you already switched to a new one. By the time they release new Sister models, you will have gone through many thousands of avatars !

Nah. I just needed to change things up as I was feeling far too serious about the internet again and needed something lighthearted. I won't be changing again for a while.

A while ? So just a mere dozen thousands of avatars then .

 StarTrotter wrote:
*rolls Warp Tether* Daemon almost dies, DSes onto battlefield. Summons a LoC (because I think that'd be the most entertaining) with full health! Actually, just imagine daemons of Tzeentch. Everybody summon a MC! Behold my legion of MCs!

Blue horrors used to summon pink horrors (or the other way around). Now, they summon Lord of Change. What a promotion .
Actually, the blurb say that daemonspawn can do that without paying the high price other armies need, so I say when you sacrifice your greater daemon to summon another greater daemon, the old greater daemon stays inside the new greater daemon, piloting it. After the marine in terminator armor strapped to the giant robot like a baby, after the marines wearing a centurion armor over their power armor, you will get greater daemons wearing greater daemons, and it will be glorious !
Now we need someone to do an illustration/model of that!

Dreadknights are psykers right? If so, I want to put a lord of change trying to fit in one. If that doesn't work (or doesn't look good) I'll just put a Tzeentchian herald in there! See I'm already having a glorious plot. As mentioned, I'm building "The Loophole Effect". What? It was that or circlejerk. All the Lords of Change? Same exact one. Pink horrors? Previous incarnations. I shall be glorious!

It would be pretty fantastic if all of these Daemon shenanigans meant that they released some new plastic GDs. I've been for Fateweaver for too long already and I'm not paying double price to some schmo on eBay who didn't shave off any mold lines and assembled it horribly...

I would expect only certain codexs could summon them safely, they stated there would be a 'high price' if you were summoning a demon but not the daemon summoning type

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I just thought it took an exceedingly high amount of skill and power to summon any daemons you would want. Chaos gods aren't really in the business of answering mortal's requests the way they would like.

Now, I'm sure GW will address this by giving Daemonology a D6 table of daemons you can summon, but still I'm not entirely positive that the mechanism (being whatever it is) will fit the fluff. Especially considering any of these psykers summoning daemons are on their first (and only) try doing so.

Hopefully a 2-12 or 4-24 table that ranges from turning into a pile of bubbling goo to becoming Skarbrand.

It's also funny that unless they include the rules for all these Daemons we will supposedly be able to summon in the rulebook itself, pretty much everyone wanting to do this will have to buy a Daemon dex.

Perhaps THAT is the price you pay if you're not already playing Daemons?

Psssht. It'll probably be something like roll a d6! Primaris is troops, 1 is heavy, 2 is elite, 3 is heavy, and, if you roll multiple dice aboce what you normally should, thus increasing the risks, you get a HQ option. On top of that, you must roll 2d6. On 1-3 it is Slaanesh, 4-6 is nurgle, 7-9 is khorne, and 9-12 is Tzeentch because as soon as they think of Chaos they can't help but wet themselves on the idea of extra random tables.

But Phil Kelly isn't writing rules right now.

Nonsense. Phil Kelly will go out of the way just to ensure the "spirit of chaos" remains strong


Automatically Appended Next Post:

haroon wrote:
Its probably pretty easy to summon greater demons, I mean that would sell a lot more so its the obvious choice for GW.

It'll be easy to summon. Just not always what you want


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
It would be pretty fantastic if all of these Daemon shenanigans meant that they released some new plastic GDs. I've been for Fateweaver for too long already and I'm not paying double price to some schmo on eBay who didn't shave off any mold lines and assembled it horribly...

Especially the Bloodthirster. The others I can live with but gosh that thing... I take a balrog instead.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Dreadknights are psykers right?

I think they are not… yet. I am not completely sure, though. Anyway, do not let that limit your imagination : just go unbound, man! Rule of cool trumps everything else, especially balance!

I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Dreadknights are psykers right?

I think they are not… yet. I am not completely sure, though. Anyway, do not let that limit your imagination : just go unbound, man! Rule of cool trumps everything else, especially balance!

Oh gosh. Guys this is a tough one. Do I go for the GK of chaos or should I toss the rules aside as GW wishes, build an army of Nid psykers and make them all become deamons (hopefully LoC or Thirsters) and explain it as their dream being that they could fly and at last... at last they can!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

Considering the drawbacks, probably. Although that does somewhat sadden my dreams of make a Lost and the Damned list.

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That'd explain a lot, although it's still fluff butchery of the highest magnitude

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That makes perfect sense, I imagine that would be the downside of summoning the forces of Chaos.

What if you summon a Bloodthirster towards the end of the game and it wrecks everything that's left?

"....We'll call it a draw!"

 Bull0 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That'd explain a lot, although it's still fluff butchery of the highest magnitude

I'd actually like to see that. You could pull the same tactic that Hordes players used to be able to do with their ballistic war beasts - give a psyker or three some method of fast movement, send him right into the thick of the opponent's army, and then pop the daemon summon and watch the opponent be forced to decide between attacking your approaching army or dealing with the daemon.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Dreadknights are psykers right?

I think they are not… yet. I am not completely sure, though. Anyway, do not let that limit your imagination : just go unbound, man! Rule of cool trumps everything else, especially balance!

They are, all GK units are psykers

 Bull0 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That'd explain a lot, although it's still fluff butchery of the highest magnitude

not really, its pretty fluffy IMO, as plenty of good guys have turned to chaos, simply because they wanted to use the evil powers for "good" out of desparation

 Accolade wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That makes perfect sense, I imagine that would be the downside of summoning the forces of Chaos.

What if you summon a Bloodthirster towards the end of the game and it wrecks everything that's left?

"....We'll call it a draw!"

You fool! The correct answer is the Bloodthirster won.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That'd explain a lot, although it's still fluff butchery of the highest magnitude

not really, its pretty fluffy IMO, as plenty of good guys have turned to chaos, simply because they wanted to use the evil powers for "good" out of desparation

Such as GK casting it, Eldar summoning Slaaneshi daemons or becoming it themself, and Tigurius dying for good and becoming a daemon that then kills chaos forces for the Imperium! I get what you mean (it works great with radical inquisitors in particular) but it still has holes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Dreadknights are psykers right?

I think they are not… yet. I am not completely sure, though. Anyway, do not let that limit your imagination : just go unbound, man! Rule of cool trumps everything else, especially balance!

They are, all GK units are psykers

Thanks. Couldn't remember if they worked like the airplane (where they count as being a psyker) or if they were a true psyker.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

You do know play testing can determine if you need to exclude things from the rules or not, right?

I'd be willing to bet that the magazine writing staff does not playtest the rules before they go to print. They were trying out actual stuff from the rulebook. Nor are they going to tell you about things that are not in the game when they're promoting the product.

Or it could be a representation of a real perils of the warp. I.e. Ezekiel tried to draw more power than he can handle to defeat his enemy and ends up failing.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Oh gosh. Guys this is a tough one. Do I go for the GK of chaos or should I toss the rules aside as GW wishes, build an army of Nid psykers and make them all become deamons (hopefully LoC or Thirsters) and explain it as their dream being that they could fly and at last... at last they can!

You do not need daemons for that.
- Take any tyranid model
- Add wings
- Declare it is now a jump-pack-beast-flying MC
- UNBOUND !
- ???
- Narrative forged
- Profit

 infinite_array wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
I have also heard, and bear with, since its a rumour:


The summoned daemons can(will?) attack your own forces if you are not chaos/demons

That'd explain a lot, although it's still fluff butchery of the highest magnitude

I'd actually like to see that. You could pull the same tactic that Hordes players used to be able to do with their ballistic war beasts - give a psyker or three some method of fast movement, send him right into the thick of the opponent's army, and then pop the daemon summon and watch the opponent be forced to decide between attacking your approaching army or dealing with the daemon.

If only the gates were still easy to get. WAIT! Unbound army... Grab Tiggy, ally with IG bring all the psykers you can. Shove them in a unit, activate gates, teleport to the enemy, proceed to activate daemon godhood. Cackle manically.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

You do know play testing can determine if you need to exclude things from the rules or not, right?

Not if that exclusion is based solely of historical fluff reasons and not game balance ones, because that is the only practical difference here.

You are making the assumption that GW's playtesting is rigid and organized. They were playtesting a general rule, so did it really matter if the army using the rule was actually going to be eligible for it or not in the final write up? I sort of imagine it went this way:

Developer #1: Hey, I came up with this new psychic domain, lets go grab somebody from the White Dwarf studio in the basement and have them test it in whatever game they got going on!
Developer #2: Great idea! Then we can sod off and grab a pint and just have them tell us their results! One more playtest down WOOHOO!

30 minutes later:
Developer #1: Hey you, the funny lookin' guy with the glasses, here are some test rules for a new psychic power, go ahead and give it to whatever psycher you have in your army. What? You're playing Dark Angels and they would never use daemonology? DO YOU NOT KNOW WHO I AM??? Now do what I say and sod off! UNBELIEVABLE!
Developer #2: Yeah, you'd think these White Dwarf gits would jump at the chance to actually be involved in something important instead of takin' pretty pictures and printing press junkets!
Developer #1 (to the WDer): And yes, you can put it in your little article, now go on, play your game, and you can thank us later.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Oh gosh. Guys this is a tough one. Do I go for the GK of chaos or should I toss the rules aside as GW wishes, build an army of Nid psykers and make them all become deamons (hopefully LoC or Thirsters) and explain it as their dream being that they could fly and at last... at last they can!

You do not need daemons for that.
- Take any tyranid model
- Add wings
- Declare it is now a jump-pack-beast-flying MC
- UNBOUND !
- ???
- Narrative forged
- Profit

Genius! If I ever take over GW I shall be asking if you wish for a job.

yeah for sure, GK and such I fully expect to be disallowed from summoning, but INQ would be allowed (havnt heard this as rumour, but I suspect it will be true nonetheless)

I have been told that the aim is to make it a last ditch/risky thing to do as opposed to somethign reliable you can spam.

Also, apparently its the OTHER new psychic trees that apparently are going to be more important.... not that im getting any solid hints as to what they are...

slaede wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

You do know play testing can determine if you need to exclude things from the rules or not, right?

I'd be willing to bet that the magazine writing staff does not playtest the rules before they go to print. They were trying out actual stuff from the rulebook. Nor are they going to tell you about things that are not in the game when they're promoting the product.

The WD staff gets stuff wrong regularly and shows rules that are different from the final product on a regular basis, so don't count it as being written in stone.

 pretre wrote:
Or it could be a representation of a real perils of the warp. I.e. Ezekiel tried to draw more power than he can handle to defeat his enemy and ends up failing.

And by failing winning. Naw, seems like it was a specific spell to summon daemons. He was using malific spells after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah for sure, GK and such I fully expect to be disallowed from summoning, but INQ would be allowed (havnt heard this as rumour, but I suspect it will be true nonetheless)

I have been told that the aim is to make it a last ditch/risky thing to do as opposed to somethign reliable you can spam.

Also, apparently its the OTHER new psychic trees that apparently are going to be more important.... not that im getting any solid hints as to what they are...

That'd be very odd considering how played up this psyker tree has been. I'm kind of afraid of the psyker phase now from all of this

Will be interesting to see what the new Perils table will consist of.

But I hope they put some limits to the Daemonology psyker abilities. If I see someone playing GKs summoning Daemons, I might flip a table

 StarTrotter wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Or it could be a representation of a real perils of the warp. I.e. Ezekiel tried to draw more power than he can handle to defeat his enemy and ends up failing.

And by failing winning. Naw, seems like it was a specific spell to summon daemons. He was using malific spells after all.

No, I get that. I mean the fluff reasoning for why Ezekiel would summon a BT is that he wouldn't intentionally. The player might, but Ezekiel wouldn't.