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 PipeAlley wrote:
So I have just a few points to make:

1. Didn't we all just pay $60 for a new rule book just last summer?

2. Are they releasing 7th before Orks which is still technically (by a month) a 4th edition Codex?

3. Unbound may still require Troops to hold objective even with the 36 new objectives. Still may need them for something

4. If not, I'd better get started on my dream army: nothing but Ork Kannonz: Str 8 AP 3 T7 4W, you can get 100 in a 2000 point list.

1. two years ago.

2. yes, sadly. i wanted orks to get a 6th ed dex

3. why bother with objectives if you can table your enemy?

4. pretty much, but like your example, i think monetary issues will prevent people coming with such broken armies that everyone fears unbound will yield.

One of the things that people seem to forget is that there are many times where GW includes rules just for the sake of having a framework.

How many official linked buildings are there? We have assault rules for that. Buildings other than the bastion? We have rules for that. Mysterious X has ALWAYS been optional, but if someone wanted to use it then they provided a framework. GW in general seems to be about giving you more OPTIONS in what you can do and providing a framework to do so.

I think of it as taking a little bit of a D and D unearthed Arcana angle. Here the alternate OPTIONS if you decide to use them we are providing rules to help make them work.

So now we know that there is an extra two daemon based lores. What if that is just providing the OPTION to work it into something you are doing. Instead of having to try and agree on how the rules should work they are removing that part from the process and just letting you play.

Same with unbound. Alright I want to just throw models on the table, how should we go about making this work? Well now GW is providing a framework of rules that you both have access to just get to playing instead of having to come up with it yourself.

It is better to give people more options and they can choose to restrict themselves rather than not have the options in the first place. I think for some people we are running into the issue of to many options and it is causing problems but never the less I think more freedom is better, even if not optimal, than less.

1/. Summer before if i remember right, but still too fething soon.

2/. yes. Three editions will have been released since the last ork codex.

3/. maybe. We don't know yet.

4/. Sounds like fun to me. Ork Artillery Korpz

 Sir Arun wrote:
i think monetary issues will prevent people coming with such broken armies that everyone fears unbound will yield.

this is a very important point, in my view. Barring proxies, who would buy 100 ork kannonz? Or 10 riptides? 10 Heldrakes? Hundreds of Eldar jetbikes? very few people will, and you can simply say 'no' to them. From my part, I find unbound to be a very interesting addition.

Dagnabbit ninjas..

Hmm if a GK unit summons a daemon, they should auto lose the game.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Genius! If I ever take over GW I shall be asking if you wish for a job.

Woah, the chance of GW ever making plastic Sisters of Battle model just increased by 5 times, up to 0,000000000000000000000001‱ ! This is great news !

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
i think monetary issues will prevent people coming with such broken armies that everyone fears unbound will yield.

this is a very important point, in my view. Barring proxies, who would buy 100 ork kannonz? Or 10 riptides? 10 Heldrakes? Hundreds of Eldar jetbikes? very few people will, and you can simply say 'no' to them. From my part, I find unbound to be a very interesting addition.

I can think of a half a dozen people off the top of my head in my area. There are people who have multiple armies that they paid over $2k JUST to have painted. It WILL happen.

I quite like the sound of Daemonology lores. Sure, some of the time it seems weird but often it could fit the fiction quite well. All depends on who ends up getting access to them, which we don't know yet.

Though I do have a sneaking suspicion it's all a scheme to sell more Daemon models and maybe the Codex...

I can absolutely believe GW is trying to make this edition one that requires lots of purchases to "keep up". Mandatory $100 rulebook, super-heavy rules and unbound rules to encourage everyone to buy the expensive kits and super-cool new Daemonology disciplines that require mass-purchases of Daemon models to use.

Just as planned....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Genius! If I ever take over GW I shall be asking if you wish for a job.

Woah, the chance of GW ever making plastic Sisters of Battle model just increased by 5 times, up to 0,000000000000000000000001‱ ! This is great news !

Nonsense! I rather like SoB so buff that up to 0,00000000000000000000001‱ if I get in charge! (I just removed a zero)

After reading the news bit...it seems that they are doing Warahmmer Fantasy.....IN SPAAACE.

Really, I'd jsut play Warhammer Fantasy is I want % armies, magic phase, all movement in one phase and the like..

also..anyone can call daemons?...so what's the point of having a Chaos army if my guard can pop a Daemon without even forcing that much? Or my Marines? Or sisters? Or Orks, or Tau, or Eldar?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
i think monetary issues will prevent people coming with such broken armies that everyone fears unbound will yield.

this is a very important point, in my view. Barring proxies, who would buy 100 ork kannonz? Or 10 riptides? 10 Heldrakes? Hundreds of Eldar jetbikes? very few people will, and you can simply say 'no' to them. From my part, I find unbound to be a very interesting addition.

Wizards of The Coast believed the same thing when they printed Black Lotus, Time Walk, and the Moxen - that their rarity and cost to acquire would prevent people from abusing them.


I respect your right to play unbound games or 40k games however you like with your friends. Personally, unless it's a pre-planned game with a friend, I'll be saying no to any unbound game for the same reasons I say no to anyone who suggests we just fly toys around the table making pew pew noises and knocking models over randomly for 2 hours (except my nephew - he gets a pass).

What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
After reading the news bit...it seems that they are doing Warahmmer Fantasy.....IN SPAAACE.

Really, I'd jsut play Warhammer Fantasy is I want % armies, magic phase, all movement in one phase and the like..

also..anyone can call daemons?...so what's the point of having a Chaos army if my guard can pop a Daemon without even forcing that much? Or my Marines? Or sisters? Or Orks, or Tau, or Eldar?

40k has always been Fantasy in space.

Also, none of the other stuff you're worried about has been confirmed, other than the Psychic Phase, which really doesn't sound that bad and previous editions of 40k have had one.

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Or if the rules change, or if the new objectives are different, or if these cards have a lot of OTT ones that can be maximized by gamers. There are a lot of what ifs. Heck, we don't even know what allies will be.

 Alex C wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
After reading the news bit...it seems that they are doing Warahmmer Fantasy.....IN SPAAACE.

Really, I'd jsut play Warhammer Fantasy is I want % armies, magic phase, all movement in one phase and the like..

also..anyone can call daemons?...so what's the point of having a Chaos army if my guard can pop a Daemon without even forcing that much? Or my Marines? Or sisters? Or Orks, or Tau, or Eldar?

40k has always been Fantasy in space.

Also, none of the other stuff you're worried about has been confirmed, other than the Psychic Phase, which really doesn't sound that bad and previous editions of 40k have had one.

Sure, Fantasy in space, but the system now and for a few edtions was different enough to NOT be a copy/paste

Well, in the new pciture, with the side line text, if a Dark angel char can call forth a Daemon of khorne (seemingly willingly) then 'pretty sure it's soemthing alot of armies ('least the marine ones) can take...

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Absolutely no difference then right now when Beaststar or Jetstar or Centstar, etc... can table you.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Absolutely no difference then right now when Beaststar or Jetstar or Centstar, etc... can table you.

Ah so the answer is to break things even more than they already are. *nods head* I like where we are going. Also, I am ashamed. No seerstar or screamerstar? Come on lad!

 StarTrotter wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Or if the rules change, or if the new objectives are different, or if these cards have a lot of OTT ones that can be maximized by gamers. There are a lot of what ifs. Heck, we don't even know what allies will be.

Or if the rules change and playing Battle forge armies means +2 to sieze, auto-extending the game, or not losing if you don't have anything on the table. There are lots of what ifs. See how easy it is to play the hypothetical game without knowing the rules.

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

This is a really, REALLY, weird argument that just keeps getting repeated in this thread. I'd really like it if people elaborated more on what they mean.

Let me try and answer your question with a question:
What's the difference between getting shot in the face with a pistol and the current small pocket knife that is stabbing you in the leg right now?

One is very annoying and a lot of people would like it to stop - and the response is much, much worse.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Do you really believe that they won't have ways to win a game? Even if that were true, people will, instead of taking an army completely full of broken madness will just take an army *almost* completely full of broken madness + whatever the best cheapest scoring unit is.

 StarTrotter wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Absolutely no difference then right now when Beaststar or Jetstar or Centstar, etc... can table you.

Ah so the answer is to break things even more than they already are. *nods head* I like where we are going. Also, I am ashamed. No seerstar or screamerstar? Come on lad!

How do you know things will be more broken? You are letting the fear in your imagination get the better of you. There are lots of people who think the game is plenty broken right now.

 gardeth wrote:
I can think of a half a dozen people off the top of my head in my area. There are people who have multiple armies that they paid over $2k JUST to have painted. It WILL happen.

But buying dozens/hundreds of the same MODEL (non-squad)? To the point of covering the table with them? I don't think the majority of players will do that. Some will do, of course. Are the number of players with this disposable cash (US$ 2k for painting) so big?

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Wizards of The Coast believed the same thing when they printed Black Lotus, Time Walk, and the Moxen - that their rarity and cost to acquire would prevent people from abusing them.

Spoiler:

It didn't work.

I respect your right to play unbound games or 40k games however you like with your friends. Personally, unless it's a pre-planned game with a friend, I'll be saying no to any unbound game for the same reasons I say no to anyone who suggests we just fly toys around the table making pew pew noises and knocking models over randomly for 2 hours (except my nephew - he gets a pass).

But cards are much more easy to come by - be it logistics, price and tourneys (Magic is bigger than 40k, isn't it?). It's harder to grab 10 of the same elite model, paint it and come all fancy smiles trying to get a game.
Well, as you said, I too respect your right to play anyway you wish. I just think this doomsaying about unbound armies being the end of 40k is a bit silly, when we didn't even see the rules yet.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:
Let me try and answer your question with a question:
What's the difference between getting shot in the face with a pistol and the current small pocket knife that is stabbing you in the leg right now?

I think a better comparison would be “What is the difference between getting shot in the face with a bazooka or with a flamethrower?”. It is totally different!

Haha, what if, instead of accidentally summoning a Daemon, a Grey Knight player in time of need summoned Draigo?

We don't know many many things. All we know at the moment is that there is the possibility to play armies in at least some games without the FoC at some cost and that there is a power that means you end up with a daemon on the board. There may be a high chance that the daemon goes crazy and attacks your own force, or a 5/6 chance that the psyker just dies with no deamon.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Absolutely no difference then right now when Beaststar or Jetstar or Centstar, etc... can table you.

Ah so the answer is to break things even more than they already are. *nods head* I like where we are going. Also, I am ashamed. No seerstar or screamerstar? Come on lad!

How do you know things will be more broken? You are letting the fear in your imagination get the better of you. There are lots of people who think the game is plenty broken right now.

Because it is plenty broken and knowing GW's balancing methods, it can only get worse.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

This is a really, REALLY, weird argument that just keeps getting repeated in this thread. I'd really like it if people elaborated more on what they mean.

Let me try and answer your question with a question:
What's the difference between getting shot in the face with a pistol and the current small pocket knife that is stabbing you in the leg right now?

One is very annoying and a lot of people would like it to stop - and the response is much, much worse.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Do you really believe that they won't have ways to win a game? Even if that were true, people will, instead of taking an army completely full of broken madness will just take an army *almost* completely full of broken madness + whatever the best cheapest scoring unit is.

You are assuming unbound becomes a pistol shot in the face. You have no proof of that at all. You are taking a snippet of a part of a 7th edition rule and applying it to the full context of 6th edition rules. That's crazy. Go take a loof at some of the Apoc special rules an army can get for playing down in points. Battle forged armies are getting some stuff to. Look there.

An unbound army the way it is portrayed in this thread will have NO CHANCE of winning. I haven't seen a hypothetical unbound list with scoring units yet presented. Take a few of those Riptides away and put in some kroot. The Blood Angels can, RIGHT NOW, put together a legal FOC lists with zero scoring units. That's right now in this game right here. So yes GW can easily make it so 10 Riptides have no chance of winning the game.

Tabling is not winning. Every major tourney requires an army to complete the mission even if a tabling occurs.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Assuming you don't get something like destroyed units enter Ongoing Reserves requiring them to have to table an entire army in a single turn to win.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

This is a really, REALLY, weird argument that just keeps getting repeated in this thread. I'd really like it if people elaborated more on what they mean.

Let me try and answer your question with a question:
What's the difference between getting shot in the face with a pistol and the current small pocket knife that is stabbing you in the leg right now?

One is very annoying and a lot of people would like it to stop - and the response is much, much worse.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Do you really believe that they won't have ways to win a game? Even if that were true, people will, instead of taking an army completely full of broken madness will just take an army *almost* completely full of broken madness + whatever the best cheapest scoring unit is.

You are assuming unbound becomes a pistol shot in the face. You have no proof of that at all. You are taking a snippet of a part of a 7th edition rule and applying it to the full context of 6th edition rules. That's crazy. Go take a loof at some of the Apoc special rules an army can get for playing down in points. Battle forged armies are getting some stuff to. Look there.

An unbound army the way it is portrayed in this thread will have NO CHANCE of winning. I haven't seen a hypothetical unbound list with scoring units yet presented. Take a few of those Riptides away and put in some kroot. The Blood Angels can, RIGHT NOW, put together a legal FOC lists with zero scoring units. That's right now in this game right here. So yes GW can easily make it so 10 Riptides have no chance of winning the game.

Tabling is not winning. Every major tourney requires an army to complete the mission even if a tabling occurs.

How does one complete a mission if one is tabled and how would this work for pick-up games?

Besides that, I've seen some list ideas with scoring troops. One prime example is MSU spam. Besides that, now you are leaping to definitives which is just as flawed as any others here.
"An unbound army the way it is portrayed in this thread will have NO CHANCE of winning." Go on how you know this for sure? Especially when you just went on about how, "You have no proof of that at all." (granted Crypt had the same problem but two wrongs makes no rights and yada yada)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
What's the difference between unbound armies wrecking face and the current small list of uber-deathstar armies wrecking face right now?

Oh yeah the Unbound armies don't have any scoring units and can't win a game.

Except if they table you.

Assuming you don't get something like destroyed units enter Ongoing Reserves requiring them to have to table an entire army in a single turn to win.

Everybody gets unlimited waves! Oh gosh imagine that with daemon summoning or just a listt of tervigons. UNLIMITED ADDITIONAL SPAWNING!

On a side note, if I ever meet somebody that is spamming MSU (even if it isn't for victory), I'm not playing them. My daemon army isn't something you want to have to roll a d6 for every unit