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 nolzur wrote:
28 librarians - 1820 pts
Defense line with quad gun - 100 pts
Combi-meltas on a few, maybe meltabombs on a couple, ymmv

Not WAAC enough. Why use expensive DA librarians when you can take an unlimited horde of cheap IG primaris psykers? At 50 points each you can take 38 of them and still have your ADL. Or, if the demon spell requires sacrificing one model instead of the whole unit you could take 31 squads of 5x wyrdvane psykers, which would let you summon 158 bloodthirsters as long as your opponent is too distracted by the first wave to have any chance to kill your horde of psykers.

I wouldn't read into this too hard yet.
GW goes out of their way to tell us that the game should be played on "eff the rules, do random 'awesome' gak instead" basis, and it seems to me that it's what going on in that passage.

Well, it's possible that they may decide to bring it into basic mech, but some people here are overreacting IMO.

It's reassuring that so many folks have seen (and thoroughly read and committed to memory) the new rule set and know for a fact where the game is broken and just what people will bring to the table.

Oh wait, it wasn't the rules, it was a tiny article in aWhite Dwarf?! Ahhh, my mistake. My hyperbole alarm was going off something rotten. I think it may be busted.

It sounds like some of you have proper jeb ends in your gaming groups, with all this wailing about UNBOUND TABLINGS EVERYWHERE!

(I'm just jealous because I don't have a gaming group).

Plenty of them in and around Manchester.

- Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's rule #1


Battle-Forged vs. Unbound? - unclear.

Unbound - no, it's not taking everything you want. All individual unit restrictions and Allies relationships apply, whatever the new ones might be.

DA Psyker summoning a Daemon - the wording of that paragraph made it clear to me it was just a random playtesting idea which may or may not be implemented in the finished product. Saying that this will be most definitely included as such makes as much sense as stating that it definitely won't. Schrödinger's rule?

That is what can be relatively objectively interpreted from the article.

Battle-Forged vs. Unbound? - unclear.

If Battle-Forged provides a bonus, what's the point of said bonus if it's not intended to be played against Unbound?

Unbound - no, it's not taking everything you want. All individual unit restrictions and Allies relationships apply, whatever the new ones might be.

Ok, so you need to stick to unit restrictions, but if you can have as many units as you want that only avoids you having 30 man terminator squads instead of 3 x 10 man terminator squads. The allies matrix is apparently different; so we've no idea what happens there.

DA Psyker summoning a Daemon - the wording of that paragraph made it clear to me it was just a random playtesting idea which may or may not be implemented in the finished product. Saying that this will be most definitely included as such makes as much sense as stating that it definitely won't. Schrödinger's rule?

I'm not convinced they'd report on an internal play test that never made it. More likely (giving GW some credit) is that they've followed the rules but ignored the fluff, o it's safe to assume that Azrael is allowed to summon a demon. If that's not the case then it's a pretty awful play test; since they are ignoring the rules completely whilst demonstrating how cinematic the rules are.


All of the above makes some perverse business sense. If anyone can summon Greater Daemons, then everyone is eligable to buy them. If people aren't restricted by the FOC, then they can buy as many elite or giant units as they want.

All of the rumours we've seen so far point towards GW encouraging more big spending, which fits perfectly with their modus operandi.

Shingen wrote:
Plenty of them in and around Manchester.

.

Had a wander up to NWGC the other week. It was rammed, which is good. But I think they were mid-renovation as it was an utter bombsite.

When time allows I'll make more of an effort. Probably best waitng for Nu40k to drop though, put me on an even footing!

Any update on the specific bonuses 'battle-forged' armies will receive? Clever ploy by GW to make it harder for people to refuse to play WAC unbound armies: "Sure I've got nothing but individual psykers in my army but you get such and such a bonus."

Insofar as GW views its IP as essential to its business model/profit, I'll LOL if they f***-up the fluff so badly by allowing all manner of marines to summon demons.

Wow... WD promo: what a bunch of utter garbage. Nothing but 30k for me at this point.

Are we really to the point where players want to attack other players for being skeptical about the new release?

There's a major change coming to 40k. There will be people who like it and don't. No one needs to have a complete rulebook to have an opinion about what they have read.

I think everyone on this board has an open mind about the possibilities, and that's not inconsistent with being skeptical about how this is going to impact the game. The fact of the matter is, we are all waiting for the new rules to come out, and some of us already have opinions based on what we have been seeing.

The problem people are having is that many of those opinions are based on assumptions beyond what is written. I think more and more people are getting fed up with reading that the sky is falling with every single release.

So clearly then the information provided is not enough to make 100% solid opinions on yet then.

But then what was the WD thinking. Players who dont follow news and rumours extensively might obviously know a new edition is coming but havent seen these WD leaks.

The first WD to post information on the new edition was what we saw. How is a player first time reading that supposed to react when all that is advertised for 7th edition is 'you can take whatever you want' unbound vs forged. Maybe it was a bad idea to write a vague teaser for 7th edition without solid information.

 Moopy wrote:
Wow... WD promo: what a bunch of utter garbage. Nothing but 30k for me at this point.

Won't 30K use the same rules edition, so will be 7th as well?

Herzlos wrote:

Battle-Forged vs. Unbound? - unclear.

If Battle-Forged provides a bonus, what's the point of said bonus if it's not intended to be played against Unbound?

Why provide warlord traits even though you can't choose not to have a warlord? Because they felt it made the game more fun.

I'm leaning towards mixed games being allowed, but it's far from clear yet.

For 40k, In the world of the internet, rumours and leaks spread like a plague infecting those who are prone to worry and hate change.

My only message to you all is that you remain calm, the sky is not falling and the world is not going to swallow you up.

Welcome the new challenge, play against these apparently ludicrous "unbound" armies with your structured, proper warhammer 40k list and your additional bonuses for doing so. And when you win, it will taste so much sweeter.

Anyway, I hope Hive Tyrants can summon Daemon Princes #JustSaying

 ascended_mike wrote:
Anyway, I hope Hive Tyrants can summon Daemon Princes #JustSaying

They can't.

 insaniak wrote:

 ascended_mike wrote:
Anyway, I hope Hive Tyrants can summon Daemon Princes #JustSaying

They can't.

Well I'm waiting for the "Hive Tyrant Daemon Commander" supplement, dataslate, formation, book, app, Forgeworld model.

In all seriousness. Relax guys.

 Steve steveson wrote:
I think more and more people are getting fed up with reading that the sky is falling with every single release.

Given the exodus of players that happens with every single release, at least for some of us, those people appear to be right.

There was been huge attrition because of 6th edition. Wargamers interested in a balanced game, fit for tournament play, with writers who keep rules up to date and participate in internet fora dropped 6th in huge numbers. 7th appears to offer little that will bring them back.

 Steve steveson wrote:
I think more and more people are getting fed up with reading that the sky is falling with every single release.

So is that something that we should be blaming on the people who aren't happy with those releases, or with the people responsible for those releases?

The whole point of a discussion is for people to share their opinions. If you're not concerned by what has been revealed so far, that's great... but others are perfectly entitled to air their discontent with the apparent direction of the game based on what we have been shown so far.

A major flaw in all this doomsaying has to be that we don't know what's missing.

There may be things that haven't leaked, that will further balance the game. We don't know anything for certain until the book hits the shelves, do we? There could be a change to some rule or another that effects the game in a major way, there could be nothing else, but we do not know.

Well, there was also huge whining about 5th edition. Particularly True LOS and Kill points, also wound allocation and vehicles and how it no longer rewarded tactical play. I read lots of comments how 5th was the worst edition of 40k and how the game was dead...

Backfire wrote:
Well, there was also huge whining about 5th edition. Particularly True LOS and Kill points, also wound allocation and vehicles and how it no longer rewarded tactical play. I read lots of comments how 5th was the worst edition of 40k and how the game was dead...

Every new edition gets its share of people who don't like those changes. It's a side effect of GW's habit of using new editions to implement sweeping changes rather than just refining the existing rules.

So yes, as long as GW continue to make such big changes between editions, you will continue to see people complain that their game has been ruined. The fact that other people don't have a problem with those changes doesn't invalidate that opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ascended_mike wrote:
There may be things that haven't leaked, that will further balance the game. We don't know anything for certain until the book hits the shelves, do we? There could be a change to some rule or another that effects the game in a major way, there could be nothing else, but we do not know.

The thing is, balance isn't the only complaint about the changes that we've heard so far. The sheer fluff-destroying nonsense of letting everybody (except Tyranids, of course) summon daemons is just annoying, and the re-introduction of a psychic phase when so many armies don't even have psykers is bizarre.


The silly thing in all of this is that the basic idea of the Unbound army is a good one. As a modeller and a fan of quirky and unusual armies, the idea of being able to build an army out of anything you want is hugely appealing. I just can't see any way that it can not lead to abuse with the current crop of codexes.

 insaniak wrote:
[The thing is, balance isn't the only complaint about the changes that we've heard so far. The sheer fluff-destroying nonsense of letting everybody (except Tyranids, of course) summon daemons is just annoying, and the re-introduction of a psychic phase when so many armies don't even have psykers is bizarre.


The silly thing in all of this is that the basic idea of the Unbound army is a good one. As a modeller and a fan of quirky and unusual armies, the idea of being able to build an army out of anything you want is hugely appealing. I just can't see any way that it can not lead to abuse with the current crop of codexes.

I understand what you mean, of course. But let's think about the warp for a moment. It's unpredictable. It does things to a psyker that we couldn't imagine. Daemons can be summoned wether we like it or not, that is IN the fluff. The failure of a weak minded psyker to control the warp and instead spawn a daemon is not unknown.
But he shouldn't do it on purpose.
And either way it's heresy!

Indeed, I fully expect an inquisitor to be watching every imperial game with a glove of righteous slappage at hand for every imperial player that summons a daemon willingly. Its the only way.

-30 VP for every act of heresy performed by an imperial player. And his models have to be purged by fire at the end of the game. Surely this is the way forward?

Huh, Dakka is being weird. Anyway, to me this is the most important paragraph. Not only the word "allowing", but also the words research and playtesting.

 Squidbot wrote:
[...] ,but also the words research and playtesting.

No, these words are a practical joke the design studio is playing on the community for a while now. It seems they are going for maximum minature sales with this new "strategy" by enabling a more loose foc.

Maybe they drop those stupid point costs in two years, who knows?

 ascended_mike wrote:
-30 VP for every act of heresy performed by an imperial player. And his models have to be purged by fire at the end of the game. Surely this is the way forward?

It would make them buy a new model..... I can see something here.

I'll wait and see. I haven't enjoyed 6th mainly due to the sheer number or rules all over the place since launch, and reverted back to a homebrewed 2nd.

But unbound sounds fine for those of us who play exclusively in a group with friends. Of course, we already do that if we desire without a £45 rulebook, so whether there is value in it questionable.

For me, the underlying message of sell more stuff, with both the rules and the timing of the release, is the noticeable thing, it is far more overt this time around.

Maybe a hint of desperation it is that blatant in fact. I suspect the figures for the year end are not looking good.

I'm also still pondering what this means for fantasy, having a new issue possible bumped for some out of time frame 40k release does not bode well for likely future investment.