Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What's can break the game if they don't fix the 2++ rerollable problem is the level 1 powers. If not screamer star/pinkstar will be busted by cursed earth. Multiple blocks of horrors is probably the way to go.

Cursed earth gives a 12" bubble of +1 to invo saves. It says it stacks with everything and doesn't say it can't stack with it's self.

Sacrifice will upgrade a horror to a lvl 2 Herald. Level 2 Tzeentch Heralds can only take Cursed Earth, Dark Flame (Garbage), Infernal Gaze(Garbage), and Sacrifice. So a new herald has a 75% chance of getting either cursed earth or Sacrifice.

Max herald pink star will start with an average of 4 cursed earths and 4 Sacrifice. Even at 3 and 3 they will boost the invo of multiple pink horror units up to a 2++ rerollable and spawn 4 more level 2 heralds with 2 more cursed earths and 2 more sacrifices. Turn 2 they get to attempt to sacrifice 6 horrors to gain 6 more heralds and the entire deamonic army has a 2++ invo that is rerollable for tzeentch deamons.

And thats asuming that the guy who does that, doesn't fail a single Psy test, or anything, wich with all those Psy-jibber-jabby going on is very unlikely.

Also do we know at what moment the Psy phase will happen?, after movement and before shooting like in battle?

or start of the turn?

I would say after movement phase, somply because you use the powers in the psy phase, but there is the witchfire powers, now if there is a new rulling for withfire that says" you can use that shooting attack during the psy phase" and that the psy phase happens first before aby other phasen that would be weird and prodlematic no?

So i guess that the Psy phase is just after movement and before shooting.

In this cas, the powers says " create units of..." not," they player can deploy units using DS" or something.

Its a free interpretation of this, and i might be 100% dead wrong, but how i see it, you use the power in the psy phase, you then add this extra unit to your army, but because nowhere it says that they arrive on the table, you then must place them in reserves and they will be available for the next turn, wich, in insight seems also weird...

But this would prohibite the Summoning are Summoning problem, after all if the units you conjured arrive only the next turn, they can't do anything.

Dunno if my explanation is clear, i lack some sleep...

 Accolade wrote:
Also probably Sisters, I doubt they're even referenced so by default we'll have to assume they're no faction.

It'll be a 400 page + book and they still might not mention SOB. I'll be surprised if they do.
(Maybe a random chart will mention them if we're lucky.)

Presumably, looking at how Conjurations work in the current rulebook would be suggestive of how they might work in 7th.

rigeld2 wrote:
Remember the WD that said everyone gets Knights?

No. I remember people misreading a piece of text to mean that, though.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Presumably, looking at how Conjurations work in the current rulebook would be suggestive of how they might work in 7th.

Interesting! Pg 68 of the 6ed brb "...conjured units can never be scoring units."

I don't think Heralds will be able to get Malefic, it will probably only be Greater and Daemon Princes. It's to easy to abuse that. I also think they'll limit how many summons you can do a turn but that doesn't matter that much.

Even if the power pool works the way you think it does, once you start summoning Pink Horrors that have Psychic Brotherhood and count as a ML1 and Heralds the game becomes broken.

If you have 4 Heralds at Level 3, that is 12 Rolls on the chart in order to get Sacrifice or the Greater Demon. You can additionally add a Fateweaver and 2 Additional Demon Princes then fill out the rest of the army with Pink Horrors for maximum Psychic Mastery. 1 Fateweaver or Lord of Change w/ 2 Daemon Princes w/ Wings and ML2 brings along with 4 Heralds brings the points up to around 1200, then you just Max out as many Pink Horrors as you can possibly get to get the mastery level up. At minimum you'll have something like 23 + D6 power pool if it works that way.

After the first turn you successfully get 2 more Lvl 2 Heralds and 3 more squads of Pink Horrors by Turn 3 onward the game functionally breaks. Because with each successive wave of MLs you get more and more Power pool dice and more and more ways to summon more Daemons. Then your initial Heralds that are level 3 who have the ability to can turn into Greater Daemons. Basically on a 4+ with 3 rolls on the chart, you get a chance to turn into a Greater Daemon. That's uh... broken.

It's why they have to have something in the game that says " if you fail to do this X happens, " or they limit the number of times you can cast a spell etc.. etc..

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
And thats asuming that the guy who does that, doesn't fail a single Psy test, or anything, wich with all those Psy-jibber-jabby going on is very unlikely.

Also do we know at what moment the Psy phase will happen?, after movement and before shooting like in battle?

or start of the turn?

I would say after movement phase, somply because you use the powers in the psy phase, but there is the witchfire powers, now if there is a new rulling for withfire that says" you can use that shooting attack during the psy phase" and that the psy phase happens first before aby other phasen that would be weird and prodlematic no?

So i guess that the Psy phase is just after movement and before shooting.

In this cas, the powers says " create units of..." not," they player can deploy units using DS" or something.

Its a free interpretation of this, and i might be 100% dead wrong, but how i see it, you use the power in the psy phase, you then add this extra unit to your army, but because nowhere it says that they arrive on the table, you then must place them in reserves and they will be available for the next turn, wich, in insight seems also weird...

But this would prohibite the Summoning are Summoning problem, after all if the units you conjured arrive only the next turn, they can't do anything.

Dunno if my explanation is clear, i lack some sleep...

In WHFB you can only ever have one of each spell in the army, no duplicate spells. So that would also stop the "summonings are now summonings" like you desribed.

If you can still take mutiples of the same pyschic powers, then you have issues.Or even a "You can't cast the same pyschic power twice in the same pyschic phase"

I'm going to go ahead and jump onto the nope train straight to F***thatville.

Unbound Lists? Is 9 Leman Russes, 3 Predators, 3 Landraiders ect. not enough that we need armies of Riptides and Baneblades? I'm just going to take 8 Thunderbolts against your horde armies, it will be fun. No... no it will not.

Psychic phase, is Fantasy really dying so horribly that they are just going to incorporate its specialties into 40k? Pretty soon we will all be forming up our horde armies onto movement trays so we can just get the movement phase over with so we can consume the enemy by the hundreds with fireballs from our eyes and bolts of lightning out of GWs arse.

In sticking with 4th and 5th ed.

 Ruberu wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and jump onto the nope train straight to F***thatville.

Unbound Lists? Is 9 Leman Russes, 3 Predators, 3 Landraiders ect. not enough that we need armies of Riptides and Baneblades? I'm just going to take 8 Thunderbolts against your horde armies, it will be fun. No... no it will not.

Psychic phase, is Fantasy really dying so horribly that they are just going to incorporate its specialties into 40k? Pretty soon we will all be forming up our horde armies onto movement trays so we can just get the movement phase over with so we can consume the enemy by the hundreds with fireballs from our eyes and bolts of lightning out of GWs arse.

In sticking with 4th and 5th ed.

Just curious, do you have folks to play 4th and 5th with?

I don't think they'll make it so that you can only cast one power a turn. That'd kind of seriously screw over Tyranid players, Eldar, and especially Chaos Daemons who have access to only 1 chart.

It'd also make it so that you'd be able to take every possible power from each psychic discipline.

I do. Most of my friends stopped playing 6th and went back to the older versions. Thats all we do now. I'm the only one that has the faith that a newer better version will come out.

 Lockark wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
And thats asuming that the guy who does that, doesn't fail a single Psy test, or anything, wich with all those Psy-jibber-jabby going on is very unlikely.

Also do we know at what moment the Psy phase will happen?, after movement and before shooting like in battle?

or start of the turn?

I would say after movement phase, somply because you use the powers in the psy phase, but there is the witchfire powers, now if there is a new rulling for withfire that says" you can use that shooting attack during the psy phase" and that the psy phase happens first before aby other phasen that would be weird and prodlematic no?

So i guess that the Psy phase is just after movement and before shooting.

In this cas, the powers says " create units of..." not," they player can deploy units using DS" or something.

Its a free interpretation of this, and i might be 100% dead wrong, but how i see it, you use the power in the psy phase, you then add this extra unit to your army, but because nowhere it says that they arrive on the table, you then must place them in reserves and they will be available for the next turn, wich, in insight seems also weird...

But this would prohibite the Summoning are Summoning problem, after all if the units you conjured arrive only the next turn, they can't do anything.

Dunno if my explanation is clear, i lack some sleep...

In WHFB you can only ever have one of each spell in the army, no duplicate spells. So that would also stop the "summonings are now summonings" like you desribed.

If you can still take mutiples of the same pyschic powers, then you have issues.Or even a "You can't cast the same pyschic power twice in the same pyschic phase"

Except primary spells I learnt the other day. Although I am very new to Fantasy. You can cast the spell as many times as you want as long as its from different mages.

Thats just primary ones though.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think they'll make it so that you can only cast one power a turn. That'd kind of seriously screw over Tyranid players, Eldar, and especially Chaos Daemons who have access to only 1 chart.

It'd also make it so that you'd be able to take every possible power from each psychic discipline.

Jetseer star and Screamer Star getting taken down a notch is a bad thing? lol

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.

If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?

I talk to my opponent.

Not just at the start of the game either, it has been known, on the odd occasion, for me to talk to my opponent for the whole battle!!!1!

I have no issue with this.

Issues may start to arise, not all the time, but sometimes, when I have to agree with my opponent about the appropriate way to play the game. When you have two opposing, but equally valid, viewpoints, both supported by the rules, and two players who may only have one chance to play a game once in a while, why is it fair that one or the other should compromise their enjoyment for the other person's?

That's actually a good point Azrael.

Personally? I think if it gets to that point, setting up a rotation of "This game we do it the way I want to do it, then next game we do it the way you want to" would not be out of the question.

Few problems with that:
1) You are again assuming that the only games are ones between people that play each other on a regular basis.
2) This could work if there was only 1 or 2 issues to be resolved this way
3) There are some of these that are major enough to affect how you design your lists.... hard to just 'change' that.
4) Now you have added a butt-ton of paperwork to keep track and remember all of the rule adaptations, and when you played them last, and how you will play them next time... yay... that sounds like fun.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
And thats asuming that the guy who does that, doesn't fail a single Psy test, or anything, wich with all those Psy-jibber-jabby going on is very unlikely.

Also do we know at what moment the Psy phase will happen?, after movement and before shooting like in battle?

or start of the turn?

I would say after movement phase, somply because you use the powers in the psy phase, but there is the witchfire powers, now if there is a new rulling for withfire that says" you can use that shooting attack during the psy phase" and that the psy phase happens first before aby other phasen that would be weird and prodlematic no?

So i guess that the Psy phase is just after movement and before shooting.

In this cas, the powers says " create units of..." not," they player can deploy units using DS" or something.

Its a free interpretation of this, and i might be 100% dead wrong, but how i see it, you use the power in the psy phase, you then add this extra unit to your army, but because nowhere it says that they arrive on the table, you then must place them in reserves and they will be available for the next turn, wich, in insight seems also weird...

But this would prohibite the Summoning are Summoning problem, after all if the units you conjured arrive only the next turn, they can't do anything.

Dunno if my explanation is clear, i lack some sleep...

In WHFB you can only ever have one of each spell in the army, no duplicate spells. So that would also stop the "summonings are now summonings" like you desribed.

If you can still take mutiples of the same pyschic powers, then you have issues.Or even a "You can't cast the same pyschic power twice in the same pyschic phase"

Except primary spells I learnt the other day. Although I am very new to Fantasy. You can cast the spell as many times as you want as long as its from different mages.

Thats just primary ones though.

In fantsey, only one person can know a spell in the army. So if you have two lv.3 wizards drawing from the same lore. when the 2nd wizard rolls for his powers, none of his can be repeats of the 1st wizard's powers and re-rolls untill he get's a new spell.

You can case the same power twice with bound spells.

I just took a spelling pill so excuse the spelling mistakes, or if maby i'm getting something mixed up.


edit: (Wait, by primary, do you mean Signature spells?)

You can use the primary spells multiple times, but the rest of the spells are once a turn. So Wyssands can be cast for each Wizard in your force, but comet of cassandra can only be cast once regardless of how many wizards have it.

Not looking to debate though... but there is the exception.

Sorry yes, signature spells... as I said im pretty new haha

 insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Remember the WD that said everyone gets Knights?

No. I remember people misreading a piece of text to mean that, though.

Yeah, silly people reading "any primary detachment" and thinking they actually meant "any". HAH! I mean, what fools those people are.
Of course they meant "something other than any".

*Yaawwnn**Blink**Blink* What is this? Hopefully reads 150 pages...

Whaa? Is it truly 7th ed already?
That's a bit early. Jeez, I predicted 6th ed would be a colossal failure and went into hibernation to wait it out but things must have screwed up beyond my worst predictions for it to have a 2 year lifespan.

That's what GW gets when they bring in things like FMC, Flyerspam, Hull points, Challenges, Overly exploitable Allies Matrix, Keeping Kill Points(instead of returning to victory points), Made DE a one year codex, and a Staggering amount of Rules Bloat.


Oh well, let's see what GW has done to fix the issues that made 6th ed the biggest flop in franchise history.

Did they fix:
FMC- Nope, looks like they made it worse

Flyerspam- Nope, Also worse with unbound lists.

Hull Points- From what has been posted, Still there and possibly even more unbalanced.

Challenges-??? No mention yet

Allies Matrix- Rumors say is still there but has been changed to punish the Tau. Hey Tau, Welcome to the DE one year codex club.
Way to go GW

Kill Points- Look to be still there. Yay for min maxing! Smh

DE Fixed- Maybe...maybe not.

Rules Bloat- Nope, instead it looks like they doubled down. 7th ed looks to be the windows vista of the 40k editions.


Ok, Things look stupidly grim. Maybe GW did something with the codex and rules releases in the past 2 years that help correct these problems.
Lets see:

DA codex- Nope, Almost feel sorry for DA players. GW treats them almost as bad as SoB and xenos.

Chaos Codex- Nope, should have been named "Codex: Enter The Helldrake"

Sisters of Battle- Poor poor sisters

Tau- Nope, broke the Tau into peices so that they can never be a stand alone army. Also removed Tau long range anti-heavy tank just in time for 7th ed scoring spammed land raiders. Thought the worst thing was the intrduction of the Crap-tides(op rules made these an auto include).

Farsight Enclave- $50 US for 3 pages to make Tau play like they are supposed to. Unfortunately, also create Crap-tide spam list.

Eldar- Pretty much got them right...ok GW thats one out of how many??

Iyanden Supplement- $50 US for a MC special character and a lot of reprinted puctures.

IG/AM- Decent, Ok GW has a second good base codex.

Escalation- WTFudge?? Really??

Imperial Knights- Seriously, WTFudge

Stronghold Assault- The quest for cash continues

Also, in this timeframe GW finally went on record as saying that the FW models designed and rules oriented for the Imperial Armour games were now legal in 40k.

And 7th ed looks to only make these problems worse. If true I can only look on the bright side....I had planned for a 4 yr break with 6th ed. At the rate GW is going, in another 2 years there will be 8th ed and it will only have been my originally planned 4 year hiatus.
Of course, by that time, my friends and I will be playing a homebrew 15mm version of an "improved" 5th ed.


I know it is early for the doom and gloom but if GW did nothing to fix what has driven away so much of the player base, heaping more rules bloat and slowing the game down more won't help it. Also think that the worst thing about 6th is how it has really splintered the player base. So much so that I am unsure if 40k will recover even if it gets a top notch balanced ruleset that is free.


Later

Edit spacing

rigeld2 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Remember the WD that said everyone gets Knights?

No. I remember people misreading a piece of text to mean that, though.

Yeah, silly people reading "any primary detachment" and thinking they actually meant "any". HAH! I mean, what fools those people are.
Of course they meant "something other than any".

"your army".

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Ruberu wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and jump onto the nope train straight to F***thatville.

Unbound Lists? Is 9 Leman Russes, 3 Predators, 3 Landraiders ect. not enough that we need armies of Riptides and Baneblades? I'm just going to take 8 Thunderbolts against your horde armies, it will be fun. No... no it will not.

Psychic phase, is Fantasy really dying so horribly that they are just going to incorporate its specialties into 40k? Pretty soon we will all be forming up our horde armies onto movement trays so we can just get the movement phase over with so we can consume the enemy by the hundreds with fireballs from our eyes and bolts of lightning out of GWs arse.

In sticking with 4th and 5th ed.

Just curious, do you have folks to play 4th and 5th with?

Hate the new edition, but don't want to give up the addiction?
Its called "Oldhammer", and the numbers playing it swell with every new edition released.
If you can't find anyone, just put up a notice in your FLGS and people will find you.
Just don't try to put one up in a GW store because they will hunt you down and suck every cent from your soul for the blasphemy.

Alabastar clown wrote:
Hate the new edition, but don't want to give up the addiction?
Its called "Oldhammer", and the numbers playing it swell with every new edition released.
If you can't find anyone, just put up a notice in your FLGS and people will find you.
Just don't try to put one up in a GW store because they will hunt you down and suck every cent from your soul for the blasphemy.

Have to admit that I am currently suffering a fair bit of guilt for those I have introduced to the game that bought a copy of 6th ed.

I did try to warn them away from 6th though.

I like that casting scheme on a 4+. And they match in dice. Also that jink save thing is pretty awesome as well as pretty much everything so far. I am even more excited now

 focusedfire wrote:

Also, in this timeframe GW finally went on record as saying that the FW models designed and rules oriented for the Imperial Armour games were now legal in 40k.

I'm fine with this for HH armies.

I'm going to slow build one.

Just need to work out if will do Sons of Horus, Space Wolves (dark grey paint job FTW) or 1K sons...

 focusedfire wrote:

I know it is early for the doom and gloom but if GW did nothing to fix what has driven away so much of the player base, heaping more rules bloat and slowing the game down more won't help it. Also think that the worst thing about 6th is how it has really splintered the player base. So much so that I am unsure if 40k will recover even if it gets a top notch balanced ruleset that is free.

Agree with the rules bloat point, which I think is a much bigger issue for 40k than balance. However personally I'm a fan of stuff like Escalation, Knight Titans and being able to use big Forge World models.

The biggest thing that has supposedly 'split' the 40k playerbase is the notion that it is ok for people to refuse to play against things they consider OP even though they are in the rules, and to ignore rules that they consider spoil the game. If everyone plays the rules as given, there's no split. I wonder if those who, for example, refuse to play against Knight Titans, also refuse to follow rules in other tabletop games they play?

I doubt it.
I'm not aware of other tabletop games with such massive balance issues.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 focusedfire wrote:

I know it is early for the doom and gloom but if GW did nothing to fix what has driven away so much of the player base, heaping more rules bloat and slowing the game down more won't help it. Also think that the worst thing about 6th is how it has really splintered the player base. So much so that I am unsure if 40k will recover even if it gets a top notch balanced ruleset that is free.

Agree with the rules bloat point, which I think is a much bigger issue for 40k than balance. However personally I'm a fan of stuff like Escalation, Knight Titans and being able to use big Forge World models.

The biggest thing that has supposedly 'split' the 40k playerbase is the notion that it is ok for people to refuse to play against things they consider OP even though they are in the rules, and to ignore rules that they consider spoil the game. If everyone plays the rules as given, there's no split. I wonder if those who, for example, refuse to play against Knight Titans, also refuse to follow rules in other tabletop games they play?

This problem of the split in the playerbase was caused by the rules bloat.

The rules bloat is caused by GW trying to make 40k a game of everything in order to cash in on sales.

The problem with 40k trying to be a game of everything is that by attempting such, GW created a fractured ruleset that sets separate and widely contradicting games under one umbrella rule set.

GW could have made flyers a stand alone game or 40k supplement. Same goes for allies, escalation, apoc*ough coughimeanunboundand* andsome other things .

If published as separate (read optional) aspects of the game I think there would not be the problem we have now. I also feel more players would be interested in playing such when they didn't feel strong-armed into aspects of the game they feel should be optional.

By codifying these supplemental rules in the core book GW created the opportunity for conflicting expectations in the playerbase. This is why I lay the blame for much of the rancor within our gaming community at the feet of GW.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 focusedfire wrote:

I know it is early for the doom and gloom but if GW did nothing to fix what has driven away so much of the player base, heaping more rules bloat and slowing the game down more won't help it. Also think that the worst thing about 6th is how it has really splintered the player base. So much so that I am unsure if 40k will recover even if it gets a top notch balanced ruleset that is free.

Agree with the rules bloat point, which I think is a much bigger issue for 40k than balance. However personally I'm a fan of stuff like Escalation, Knight Titans and being able to use big Forge World models.

The biggest thing that has supposedly 'split' the 40k playerbase is the notion that it is ok for people to refuse to play against things they consider OP even though they are in the rules, and to ignore rules that they consider spoil the game. If everyone plays the rules as given, there's no split. I wonder if those who, for example, refuse to play against Knight Titans, also refuse to follow rules in other tabletop games they play?

Maybe they don't want to play versions of the game that they consider unfun. Why would they wast three hours playing a game they don't consider to be fun? They don't refuse games or houserule just for the joy of being rebals or whatever your mind's come up with. They do it because they love the game but the current incarnation is sometimes not fun. Fun, the main reason for playing a game.

I really enjoyed 6th a lot, at least when playing around my circles. Never experienced any of the troubling things, though I'm not trying to argue that they weren't troubling.

And overall, this new edition looks like the sort of 40k I would enjoy. Not very pleased that its arrived so quickly though, so I'm in a bit of a split mind right now.

I personally am looking forward to 7th edition, new stuff is always fun and gives me something new to figure out.

Everyone always dos this before something comes out "its gona be so broken ZOMG NO WAYZ" ect.. I just play and have fun.