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 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

 Elemental wrote:
You know the giant stompy robots in Battletech? They totally wouldn't be able to walk or mount weapons, and to make it more realistic, everyone should be using tanks. That would improve the game and make it cooler, right?

I love Battletech. War is so much cooler when you're not just pushing a button to launch an inter-continental ballistic missile at your opponent 300km away. Nope! You need to get within 100m of him in a huge, hulking, clunky robot and LASER HIM TO DEATH.

Kill the meat, save the metal.

Saldiven wrote:

coredump wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Uhh... why must they insist on keeping the "casualties from the front" bull gak. What was so difficult about:

1. Roll To Hit.
2. Roll to Wound.
3. Owning player assigns wounds (1 per model before wrapping around). Wounds must be assigned to models within range and LOS.
4. Owning player takes saves (where applicable).
5. Owning player removes casualties.

So simple. It required almost no thought.

You really dont remember the issues we had (and YMDC threads) dealing with having to spread out the wounds, then re-grouping into 'buckets' of similar models, then the confusion about how you 'assigned' the wound to a certain model, but it actually applied to *any* model in the same 'bucket'. Unless there was only 1 model in that bucket.... So you could stack 3 Rends onto a Sgt, but not onto one specific tac marine....

yeah, that system never had any issues....

H.B.M.C. is referring to an even older edition where there were no wound buckets or worrying about similar or different models. It was far simpler, far faster, and far easier to understand. The only negative was that the Powerfist Sergeant and Meltagunner would pretty much always be the last models to die, regardless of the attacking player's wishes.

Add Precision shots then and we're golden

I don’t think Unbound is going break the game. Yes there are a bunch out there who will Abuse Unbound to take the most Broken WAAC Cheese list they can. It should take you about one day for you to figure out who those are and avoid them.
Then you have those Fluffy/Semi-Competitive Player who are jumping for joy now that they can take their Fluffy list and not have that TFG/Rules Lawyer tell you that you can’t “Field Your Army, It is Not Legal!”.
Unbound is going to let me play my 1st Veteran’s Company.



Tell me this is a Broken Army, No
Competitive? Probably not unless the other Player is pulling out his Fluffy Army
Fun and Exiting? Probably.

The Mission Cards:
I love the concept; one of our players never played “Objective” Games, it was always about tabling. Even if he did not Table the others if he decimated his opponent he would declare “Victor” even if he lost by Victory Points.
Mission Cards may force him to change (Though I doubt it), but they will keep the game “Dynamic” forcing me to abandon my Gun-Lining and take more “Mobile Armies”…and I don’t think that is a bad thing.

Psychic Power Phase:
Undecided, to me it will Marginalize Psykers making them flavorless.

Skimmer Save:
Once more Mixed Fellings, I like the 4+ “Jink” for Snap Fire. I will have to see how it effects my Typhoons.

Wound Allocation/Firing Order Changes:
I see no issues here.
>Announce I am firing in order my 8x Bolt Guns, then 2x Plasma-Guns for my Grey Hunters. I pick up 16 Green Dice and then the 4 Red Dice and Roll them.
>Figure out what the Bolt Guns did.
>Figure out what the Plasma-Guns did.
Replace the words Plasma-Guns for Melta-Guns or Flamers when needed.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I really hope forgeworld puts out "tactical flyer" rules or something that puts them back with FWs original rules. I don't like this -2BS to hit a flyer.

I still haven't seen any confirmation of that.

slaede wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
From glossing over the WD scans again I've yet to see any clarification on the jink changes, anyone got a source?

I broke that one. The source is a GW rep. It has been confirmed by Torrent of Fire.

Confirmed it's a rumor.

 undertow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I really hope forgeworld puts out "tactical flyer" rules or something that puts them back with FWs original rules. I don't like this -2BS to hit a flyer.

I still haven't seen any confirmation of that.

It's bunk. It was made up on 4chan.

I'm really liking what i'm hearing about this edition, both the rumors and the confirmed stuff.
They are pushing the CC armies which was needed and they are doing it the right way. Many thought that to make CC viable you had to allow assaults from DS or in general reserves. Let me tell you my opinion, fixing assault by making it faster to get in CC is really really the wrong way to do that. Why?
The CC in this game is in trouble due to the actual high lethality of the game which came with the power creep of new releases. Making it easy to get in meele would only increase the lethality of the game, which is not good. Instead you have to nerf gun lines and they are doing it many small ways that shift the balance of CC vs shooty by quite a big deal.

1) Random turn per turn objectives. High mobility is not the primary stat of a gunline.
2) Rumored nerf of ignore cover.
3) Rumored test on overwatch (would fit quite well with OW being at bs-2)
4) Psy phase after movement. A psyker on the move has higher range on his maledictions.

If they make one last change i'd be a happy panda, and that is: please please please change the twin linked rule from reroll to hit to reroll to wound. First it doesn't make sense to become more accurate by pointing two guns in the same direction, while it makes a lot of sense to make it hurt more on a hit. Second it would drastically reduce the effects of that rule on T3 models (and partially on T4) which is the basis for assault units. Rerolling a 2+ (pretty much any shot against a T3) increases your average wounds by 17%, rerolling a 4+ increases it by 50%. This would also reign in the scatter laser, since it mostly affects high S weapons.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You used to be able to play 40k in an hour or two...

That's the biggest problem.

40k at conception involved, at most, a few dozen models a side. In the interests of profits to support a growing company and to expand the game in general, 40k has turned from what was a small scale skirmish game (where even melee made a little sense), to massive armies fighting other massive armies.

Cost of entry issues aside, this change requires a huge change in the way that we play said games.

Suffice to say, the changes between 1st and 7th edition have not in any way catered for this. They've done their best to address balance but never started to address the growing scale of 40k.

We're at the point where some games of 40k involve as many men as some of the smallest original Epic games used to involve- and in 40k style rules, that's hell.

Hit the nail on the head. I'm not against massive free for all games of 40k, a proper supplement is long overdue, but this horrible halfway house approach is strangling the game.

Consider the following. In 5th, I played a small 750 points game with my IG. It was a close, tense, fun game, because every model counted. Even your basic guardsman could make a difference. Ten guardsmen were no match for ten tactical marines, and rightly so, but it never felt like I was going to get blown off the table in one turn.

Later on, I watched bigger games of 5th and massive games of 6th and lent a friend some units for a massive game of 40k. In one game, I watched most of my friend's units getting blown away before they even had time to scratch their backsides. He may as well have removed those units with a shovel! I remember thinking how disheartening must it be for somebody to paint 2000 points of troops, all those hours of painting, gluing, filing dozens of arms etc etc only to see them wasted in one turn. What kind of fun, social game is that?

So play the game at a lower points level?

 Blacksails wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

No, nobody is getting a free update, remember who we're dealing with! I'm sorry, but that's the most obviously false rumour I've sen yet.

So £50, do I get a discount for trading in my old rule book which I've only had for 2 years? No? well then until I am told this edition is the best thing since sliced bread by at leas 50 reliable sources then my money will stay in my pocket. Even if it is the the best edition ever I will just get a tiny rule book off eBay from those that buy the new/revamped boxed set and don't want the mini book.

 daemonish wrote:
So £50, do I get a discount for trading in my old rule book which ? No well then until I am told this edition is the best thing since sliced bread by at leas 50 reliable sources then my money will stay in my pocket. Even it is the the best edition ever I will just get a tiny rule book off eBay for those that buy the new/revamped boxed set and don't want the mini book.

.

Only if you find someone to sell it to via the swap shop or bartertown... There are three reasons I'm planning on getting this despite my reservations..

1) I sold my 6e rulebook at 50% off a few months ago.
2) My FLGS isn't happy about this and has heard the grumbling so they're offering a discount to buy it.
3) It is coming in 3 books so the "rules" part is smaller/lighter negating the reason I'd wait for the small format softcover to come out.

If any one of those three wasn't true, I wouldn't be getting the 7e rulebook and in fact hadn't planned on buying it until my FLGS sent out an email with the discount announcement.

 Blacksails wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

I think so. I just checked the store, it's no longer available from iTunes.

This appears to mean that, no matter what, I am getting the new Rulebook. Despite the fact I do not want it. *sigh*

There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

 techsoldaten wrote:


There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

The sad thing is GW couldn't care less about this because your friends have already bought their armies and thus given them money. In GW eyes they've already won.

It's a nice gesture but utterly futile.

I'm going to be sad to not use my 6th Edition limited edition book anymore. Yeah it was over-priced, but my awesome wife got it for me as a Christmas present after 6th Edition came out (I was waiting on buying the main rulebook until the mini-book was available, so I didn't have it yet).

The book is huge, but it's so high quality, and was just so much fun to read and use. I loved it. Great present.

In contrast... the new huge box seems... meh. It looks like the exact same books that you get normally, with different covers, in a box with some objective markers and a poster?

Ugh.

Saldiven wrote:

coredump wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Uhh... why must they insist on keeping the "casualties from the front" bull gak. What was so difficult about:

1. Roll To Hit.
2. Roll to Wound.
3. Owning player assigns wounds (1 per model before wrapping around). Wounds must be assigned to models within range and LOS.
4. Owning player takes saves (where applicable).
5. Owning player removes casualties.

So simple. It required almost no thought.

You really dont remember the issues we had (and YMDC threads) dealing with having to spread out the wounds, then re-grouping into 'buckets' of similar models, then the confusion about how you 'assigned' the wound to a certain model, but it actually applied to *any* model in the same 'bucket'. Unless there was only 1 model in that bucket.... So you could stack 3 Rends onto a Sgt, but not onto one specific tac marine....

yeah, that system never had any issues....

H.B.M.C. is referring to an even older edition where there were no wound buckets or worrying about similar or different models. It was far simpler, far faster, and far easier to understand. The only negative was that the Powerfist Sergeant and Meltagunner would pretty much always be the last models to die, regardless of the attacking player's wishes.

Don't think so, the "1 per model before wrapping around" was pretty unique to the case I am referring to.

Loopstah wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

The sad thing is GW couldn't care less about this because your friends have already bought their armies and thus given them money. In GW eyes they've already won.

It's a nice gesture but utterly futile.

Thank you for salting the wound.

Seriously, the feeling here is that there are other hobbies / games that don't require you to make constant purchases to support a broken system. The person who is taking it on the chin is the owner of the FLGS, who is a friend and just signed a new lease on his space. He is going to need to sell a lot of these things to keep up, and it looks like people are abandoning the store.

 Blacksails wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

That is what it sounded like. He said only the iPad enhanced edition. Something about that it had only been available for 3 months or something.

Thanks,
Duncan

 zammerak wrote:


Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

I think so. I just checked the store, it's no longer available from iTunes.

This appears to mean that, no matter what, I am getting the new Rulebook. Despite the fact I do not want it. *sigh*

There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

 Blacksails wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

OMG, LMFAO when I read this! *sigh* that will have me laughing for awhile. Good one, good joke dude!

 techsoldaten wrote:

Loopstah wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

The sad thing is GW couldn't care less about this because your friends have already bought their armies and thus given them money. In GW eyes they've already won.

It's a nice gesture but utterly futile.

Thank you for salting the wound.

Seriously, the feeling here is that there are other hobbies / games that don't require you to make constant purchases to support a broken system. The person who is taking it on the chin is the owner of the FLGS, who is a friend and just signed a new lease on his space. He is going to need to sell a lot of these things to keep up, and it looks like people are abandoning the store.

So people who probably spent a couple hundred dollars on their armies are protesting a new rulebook why? Because they only got two years out of the last one without even looking to see if the new edition is an improvement? I am happy with pretty much everything I have heard so far and it actually looks like GW was trying to address some of the issues with the edition. If it costs me an additional 85 bucks to get more versatility and enjoyment out of my games I will happily pay it.

Seems pretty stupid to me but whatever, to each his own.

2. Pre-orders start at 2:00 PM EDT TODAY

I dont see um?

 vadersson wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 vadersson wrote:

3. Owners of the iBooks enhanced edition of the rules will get a free update to 7th edition. Sounded like iBook only.

Just to clarify, is this people with the 6th edition enhanced edition only getting the free update?

That is what it sounded like. He said only the iPad enhanced edition. Something about that it had only been available for 3 months or something.

Thanks,
Duncan

Yeah it did seem like I just bought the iBook version recently. My hope was to keep up with current FAQs (Lol). I am not holding my breath but it would be nice to see a new rulebook show up when I update in iBooks without having to buy it again.

Brachiaraidos wrote:40k at conception involved, at most, a few dozen models a side. In the interests of profits to support a growing company and to expand the game in general, 40k has turned from what was a small scale skirmish game (where even melee made a little sense), to massive armies fighting other massive armies.

Cost of entry issues aside, this change requires a huge change in the way that we play said games.

Suffice to say, the changes between 1st and 7th edition have not in any way catered for this. They've done their best to address balance but never started to address the growing scale of 40k.

I mostly agree with you, except that this is exactly what the change from 2nd to 3rd edition was supposed to be about. If you have access to WD #226, it has all the "introductions" to the (then) new 3rd edition, including lots of designer notes and explanations, and it's well worth a read. Changes like Rapid Fire getting extra shots based on range, Cover Saves and the armor/AP system instead of modifiers, were all done to facilitate batch rolling. Instead of "This marine is at long range from that Ork in cover, and this one is short range from that Ork in cover, and these two are short range from those guys in the open, but they moved, so..." you just go on to "These guys fire bolters at those Orks... 5 hits... 3 wounds. Take saves." Psychic powers went from a card-based mini-game to basically "actions" that you do in the appropriate phase - albeit most of them just glorified alternate guns, which was admittedly rather bland.

Fast forward to today, and I'm fiddling with model placement so that my special weapons are close enough to hit, but not close enough to automatically be the first to die due to "Closest Model" removal, and then my opponent is rolling saves separately again because of Look Out Sir. They're adding the Psychic Phase back in, which I confess does actually seem like a simplification against the proliferation of powers used during-or-maybe-at-the-beginning-of- any given phase. I'm rolling on tables before we start playing, because my Commander gets different special rules every game, and my daemons also get different wargear. My daemons also might get different invulnerable saves over the turns, but also random anger-of-the-gods-artillery-strikes, because CHAOS. But I guess now we'll also be rolling/drawing for different mission objectives every turn, too?

Each of these things might be ok on its own. It's not any one of them that I feel bogs the game down, it's the cumulative effect of all of them together. To be fair, they all have the potential to add little bits of flavor to a game, but I'm left wondering if the cost involved is really worth it to me.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Is it a futuristic, small scale, skirmish RPG? Or is it epic in 28mm? D-weapons, riptides, deathstar units etc etc, are neither here nor there. The game suffers from an identity crisis - we get a horrible compromise of big battles and skirmishes crammed into one, and from what I've been reading, it's just gotten worse.

I think this cuts to the heart of it, but it's not just about the size of the game, it's about the focus. Superheavies are cool. Detailed characters with little roleplay elements are cool. Offbeat games with unlikely alliances are cool. Mental duels between mighty psykers are cool. Grand battles with sweeping movements of massed troops are cool. Bombing runs and dogfights and air-cav drops are cool. That's all cool! But I don't know that it's really cool to try and do all of that at the same time. In my head - in the ideal sense - yeah, sure it is. But at a certain point, something has to give, and unfortunately, I fear it is the gameplay that is being compromised now. They've gone to great pains to include a lot of fun ideas, but I feel like the sum total does not result in a more satisfying experience for me.

- H8

Pre orders have gone live in UK GW stores, at 7. Am I the only one hitting refresh on the GW site? I already placed my pre order at my brick and mortar store, I just want so see the shiny.

 daemonish wrote:
So £50, do I get a discount for trading in my old rule book which I've only had for 2 years?

I really don't get this whole "2 years, 2 years, 2 years" thing. Yeah, 6th was out 2 years. Now it's done. Here's 7th. It is what it is, move on, etc... Get into AT-43, they haven't had any updates or new rule books for a long time! http://straightfrommyvoluptuouships.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/keep-calm-and-don-t-cry-over-spilt-milk.png

Pre orders have gone live in UK GW stores, at 7. Am I the only one hitting refresh on the GW site? I already placed my pre order at my brick and mortar store, I just want so see the shiny.

Same for us in the states

I want shinny!

 Leth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Loopstah wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


There's a protest going on in my gaming group over this. Friends of mine are ditching their armies, I have bought 4 over the past 2 weeks just to keep them off eBay.

The sad thing is GW couldn't care less about this because your friends have already bought their armies and thus given them money. In GW eyes they've already won.

It's a nice gesture but utterly futile.

Thank you for salting the wound.

Seriously, the feeling here is that there are other hobbies / games that don't require you to make constant purchases to support a broken system. The person who is taking it on the chin is the owner of the FLGS, who is a friend and just signed a new lease on his space. He is going to need to sell a lot of these things to keep up, and it looks like people are abandoning the store.

So people who probably spent a couple hundred dollars on their armies are protesting a new rulebook why? Because they only got two years out of the last one without even looking to see if the new edition is an improvement? I am happy with pretty much everything I have heard so far and it actually looks like GW was trying to address some of the issues with the edition. If it costs me an additional 85 bucks to get more versatility and enjoyment out of my games I will happily pay it.

Seems pretty stupid to me but whatever, to each his own.

It's why I've never had any desire to own a game store. I can't imagine my livelihood depending on some of the personalities that frequent those stores. Tough business.