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2014/05/21 20:59:52
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
zammerak wrote: As someone who runs nob bikers, I don't like the no charging first turn thing. If da ladz wanna krump, let um krump!
I’m OK with no 1st turn charge is you scout/infiltrate/use other deployment shenanigans. I think all of that was covered in 6th. But if someone wants to drop/scout/turboboost into my face first turn, I’d like to option to stab them.
...which is exactly why them not having access to anything except for Daemonology and Force powers (when they don't even have Force weapons) is a bit of a strange design choice.
unless you account for the fact that GW knows whats in the unreleased ork codex, and that force weapons are somthing that the orks desparatly need added to their codex.
they also likely have their own trees as do other codexes, so likely will make more sense later
2014/05/21 21:01:53
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may (may 17th pre-order) confirmed - All info 1st post, new vid p184
Can someone explain to me how Carnifexs can only use 1 Hammer of Wrath attacks? I though the codex says is has D3 attacks so why are people saying it can only have one? Has the Tyranid FAQ came in and changed this rule?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:07:41
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2014/05/21 21:07:50
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Almost all Nid MCs need to Smash Attack to even have a chance of hurting a Land Raider.
Assuming the land Raider moved, that is a 3+ to hit, and a 4+ to glance. Now lets say the earlier rumor is correct, and Smash Attack allows reroll Pens, and Pens remove 2HP.
Even with that, on average, an MC will remove .6666 HP per turn. So it will take *6 turns* for an MC to Smash Attack a Land Raider to death. And that is *after* it has run across the table and finally caught the thing.
There is one possible caveat to this.... if you can still add attacks from charging and multiple weapons, it will make it a small bit better.
But were Smash Attacks overpowered before..??
2014/05/21 21:12:05
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Not to say that particular rumour is wrong, but currently pens count as two wounds for combat resolution, there is a chance that it may have got lost in translation, so to speak.
Not saying that is the case, but in all the excitement things could get overlooked/misunderstood.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Almost all Nid MCs need to Smash Attack to even have a chance of hurting a Land Raider.
Assuming the land Raider moved, that is a 3+ to hit, and a 4+ to glance. Now lets say the earlier rumor is correct, and Smash Attack allows reroll Pens, and Pens remove 2HP.
Even with that, on average, an MC will remove .6666 HP per turn. So it will take *6 turns* for an MC to Smash Attack a Land Raider to death. And that is *after* it has run across the table and finally caught the thing.
There is one possible caveat to this.... if you can still add attacks from charging and multiple weapons, it will make it a small bit better.
But were Smash Attacks overpowered before..??
I think they were more annoyed at Smash Attacks giving Instant Death(Str10) on weaker characters. 4 Smash attacks on a precious Chapter Master is too much apparently.
2014/05/21 21:15:33
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
azreal13 wrote: Not to say that particular rumour is wrong, but currently pens count as two wounds for combat resolution, there is a chance that it may have got lost in translation, so to speak.
Not saying that is the case, but in all the excitement things could get overlooked/misunderstood.
I have found when it comes to rumors and first reports, it's always better to be pessimistic. Then instead of dissappointment, you are pleasantly surprised.
2014/05/21 21:17:34
Subject: Re:40k 7th Edition release 24th may (may 17th pre-order) confirmed - All info 1st post, new vid p184
SarisKhan wrote: Various saves ≠ Armour Saves. Obviously, 3+ is bad when you shoot Autocannons at it. However, what I actually meant is the fairly frequent: "Oh, you're shooting 6 Lascannons at my Carnifexes? Too bad they've got a 3+ Cover (Venomthrope) and FnP (Catalyst). Good luck!"
6 Lascannons and the Venom isn't dead yet? Cool story. And that's 300 (2 Dakkafexes) + 200 (ish... the psyker for FNP) + 45 (Venomthrope) points. Sooo.... okay? And it can't be that frequent - Catalyst is only a 1/6 chance.
You do realise I have to see the Venomthrope to kill it? Most of the time it sits behind some hill or dozens of other models, including things like Exocrine or Tervigon.
Catalyst isn't that difficult to get when you have several Psyker TMCs. Also, ever heard of using hyperbole to prove a point?
Anyway, do you want a straight example? Two Predators Annihilators will on average deal 3.7 Wounds to an exposed Carnifex. So that's 280 dedicated pts. killing, let's say 150 pts. when a Dakkafex. Now, how often is that Carnifex completely in the open without some sort of save to boost it's survivability? Not that often.
Drukhari - 4.7k
Space Marines - 3.1k
Chaos Space Marines - 2.9k
Harlequins - 0.9k
2014/05/21 21:18:13
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Almost all Nid MCs need to Smash Attack to even have a chance of hurting a Land Raider.
Assuming the land Raider moved, that is a 3+ to hit, and a 4+ to glance. Now lets say the earlier rumor is correct, and Smash Attack allows reroll Pens, and Pens remove 2HP.
Even with that, on average, an MC will remove .6666 HP per turn. So it will take *6 turns* for an MC to Smash Attack a Land Raider to death. And that is *after* it has run across the table and finally caught the thing.
There is one possible caveat to this.... if you can still add attacks from charging and multiple weapons, it will make it a small bit better.
But were Smash Attacks overpowered before..??
There is another solution to AV14 in our codex - Crushing Claws. +1S, AP2, Armourbane. Either on a brood of scytal fexes, or haruspex models.
By the look of the Endurance psychic card, there is a chance that Feel No Pain is back to a 4+ roll, as well -- that along with the healing properties of eating bad guys could aid haruspexes survivability.
All is not lost, not yet.
Also this: This image from monday shows that you CAN include as many detachments in an army as you have models, and points for and still be battle forged. Tyranids can spam hive tyrants all day if that's what gets the job done, or just take 2 HQ, 4 Troops, and load up on 6 heavy slots....The possibilities are endless.
The game has been expanding rapidly since 6th came out - it is time to unleash the beast, throw caution to the wind, and let fly the dogs of war!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:18:34
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/05/21 21:18:28
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Also, it seems that Wraithknights just got even better. No range penalty on charging through cover and 2 hull points on a pen in CC? Awesome for strength 10. Smash only 1 attack is actually a buff for the knight. Want to stay locked in combat? Just Smash.
2014/05/21 21:20:01
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
WrentheFaceless wrote: So has it been stated how perils work in relation to multiple dice? Say you roll 3 do you roll perils twice or just once?
White Dwarf says a perils test is on 2 or more 6's. which leads me to believe that it's just 1 Peril's check regardless of the number of Boxcars you throw.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/05/21 21:21:45
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
One thought that did occur to me, IA1 Armoured Battlegroup lists are likely to be a thing people see where FW isn't an issue. While the damage chart changes won't affect lighter vehicles too much, armies of scoring AV14 that don't have too many multishot HP-removal-spam weapons may be very capable indeed, so long as they keep everything out of assault range.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2014/05/21 21:23:32
Subject: Re:40k 7th Edition release 24th may (may 17th pre-order) confirmed - All info 1st post, new vid p184
SarisKhan wrote: You do realise I have to see the Venomthrope to kill it? Most of the time it sits behind some hill or dozens of other models, including things like Exocrine or Tervigon.
You don't always have to see it - Barrage is a thing.
Catalyst isn't that difficult to get when you have several Psyker TMCs. Also, ever heard of using hyperbole to prove a point?
Yes, I've heard it's a poor strategy to try and get your point across.
Anyway, do you want a straight example? Two Predators Annihilators will on average deal 3.7 Wounds to an exposed Carnifex. So that's 280 dedicated pts. killing, let's say 150 pts. when a Dakkafex. Now, how often is that Carnifex completely in the open without some sort of save to boost it's survivability? Not that often.
280 points that lost literally nothing to kill a 150 point unit. My heart aches. Remember, it's literally impossible for that 150 point unit to hurt those Predators outside of CC (assuming it didn't take the HVC which... well, no one does). So no, you're not helping your case at all.
Tell you what - when you can lose a tank solely to lasgun fire, then you can complain about CC deaths to TMCs. Because I lose at least one TMC to small arms fire every game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:25:05
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/05/21 21:24:31
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
WrentheFaceless wrote: So has it been stated how perils work in relation to multiple dice? Say you roll 3 do you roll perils twice or just once?
White Dwarf says a perils test is on 2 or more 6's. which leads me to believe that it's just 1 Peril's check regardless of the number of Boxcars you throw.
Alright thanks, must have missed that in the WD
3000
4000
2014/05/21 21:26:57
Subject: Re:40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Just got the book, quite interesting small changes, annoyed that terrify no longer removes fearless though. I have wrote a few things I have noticed if anyone wants to read
Spoiler:
So got the book. Will jot down the things I notice
There is now a start of turn which is specfically before movement
Mastery level governs how many spells you can attempt to cast per psyhic phase as well as how many spells you generate. Psykers that take all their spells from one table know the sig spell. So lvl 1';s will know the sig and another random spell but you can only cast 1.
Psykers can know the same spells (which is a big difference form fantasy)
Perils table is pretty much take a wound with no saves of any kind, plus another feature, the rumours are true for these (on 1 you do a ld test, pass you take a wound, fail removed from play).
Something chew just asked, it is indeed correct IC's cannot join units that contain MCs or vehicles....
snap shots are bs1 still
Overwatch is still as it is now, no test to do it, no penatly for doing it
Charging through terrain is -2 to distance rolled and still int1
Multi assault. Still the same up to this point
A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contat with a unegaged model in primary target (think thats different?)
The wording for jet pack thrust move is still the same, in that it describes the jet pack unit. Cannot find anything to explain what a jet pack unit is....
FMC's cannot charge is they have changed flight mode that turn.
swooping is 12 to 24 still, 90degree turn before it moves, still run 2d6, grounding is still on a 1 or 2 and suffering a wound has to test end of phase but if grounded can charge.
Flyers now, if immobilsed crash and burn on a 1 or 2,
Ignoring the rest of the vehicle section for now (yes super heavies are in)
Excess wounds are indeed transferred to the unit from challenges
Ignoring terrain for now
Deployements are still the same
'Night fighting is just everyone has stealth
FMCS, zooming flyers or units in them are not scoring, claimed buildings are SCORING LOL With reserves, I am struggling to find how much you can reserve, it doesnt actually say!
force weapons are now acitvated in the psyhic phase, one test for the unit
Dedicated transports can now infiltrate
IC's cannot infiltate with a unit unless he has infiltrate as well
Jink is 4+ but can only fire snap shots until end of their next turn
You need a 6 to hit for precision shot,
ignores cover is no cover saves against wounds pens or glances
power weapons are the same
Psyhic powers
Iron arm doesnt give EW anymore,
enfeeble is minus 1 str and toughness treats all terrain as difficult
Endurance is warp charge 2, targets friendly unit, they gain EW, FNP 4+ and relentless wow
rest are pretty much the same, the numbers have changed though (i.e endurance is now 5)
Prescience is wc2 now, 12inch range gives re roll to hit still
Foreboding is the same
Forewarning is the same
perfect timing is the same
Pre cog is the same
Misfortune, is different, all attacks that target that unit have the rending special rule... wow
Scriers gaze is you can now re roll the reserves roll outflank and mysterious objective
Daemonology we all know from leaks
santic no 6 is vortex of doom, str d small blast
pyro is still crap
Telekinesis, no gate....
replaced with levitation
targets the psyker he may move 12inches... they then cannot charge
psyhic malestrom is no 6, wc3, str 10 ap1 large blast barrage
Telepathy
Dominate the same
mental fort, the same
terrify, -1 ld, treats all units as having fear, and must take moral check end of phase, no longer removes fearless
Shourding, new power, gives pskyer and all units within 6 shrouded
Invis, all units targetting the unit with it cast on can only snap shot at it
Hallicunation, the same?
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2014/05/21 21:26:59
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
Vaktathi wrote: One thought that did occur to me, IA1 Armoured Battlegroup lists are likely to be a thing people see where FW isn't an issue. While the damage chart changes won't affect lighter vehicles too much, armies of scoring AV14 that don't have too many multishot HP-removal-spam weapons may be very capable indeed, so long as they keep everything out of assault range.
I now love the fact I don't need to take anything without an AV value and can still claim objectives. Soldiers and Chimeras are too squishy, roll out the Russes.
2014/05/21 21:27:30
Subject: Re:40k 7th Edition release 24th may (may 17th pre-order) confirmed - All info 1st post, new vid p184
MarkyMark wrote: Just got the book, quite interesting small changes, annoyed that terrify no longer removes fearless though. I have wrote a few things I have noticed if anyone wants to read
Spoiler:
So got the book. Will jot down the things I notice
There is now a start of turn which is specfically before movement
Mastery level governs how many spells you can attempt to cast per psyhic phase as well as how many spells you generate. Psykers that take all their spells from one table know the sig spell. So lvl 1';s will know the sig and another random spell but you can only cast 1.
Psykers can know the same spells (which is a big difference form fantasy)
Perils table is pretty much take a wound with no saves of any kind, plus another feature, the rumours are true for these (on 1 you do a ld test, pass you take a wound, fail removed from play).
Something chew just asked, it is indeed correct IC's cannot join units that contain MCs or vehicles....
snap shots are bs1 still
Overwatch is still as it is now, no test to do it, no penatly for doing it
Charging through terrain is -2 to distance rolled and still int1
Multi assault. Still the same up to this point
A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contat with a unegaged model in primary target (think thats different?)
The wording for jet pack thrust move is still the same, in that it describes the jet pack unit. Cannot find anything to explain what a jet pack unit is....
FMC's cannot charge is they have changed flight mode that turn.
swooping is 12 to 24 still, 90degree turn before it moves, still run 2d6, grounding is still on a 1 or 2 and suffering a wound has to test end of phase but if grounded can charge.
Flyers now, if immobilsed crash and burn on a 1 or 2,
Ignoring the rest of the vehicle section for now (yes super heavies are in)
Excess wounds are indeed transferred to the unit from challenges
Ignoring terrain for now
Deployements are still the same
'Night fighting is just everyone has stealth
FMCS, zooming flyers or units in them are not scoring, claimed buildings are SCORING LOL With reserves, I am struggling to find how much you can reserve, it doesnt actually say!
force weapons are now acitvated in the psyhic phase, one test for the unit
Dedicated transports can now infiltrate
IC's cannot infiltate with a unit unless he has infiltrate as well
Jink is 4+ but can only fire snap shots until end of their next turn
You need a 6 to hit for precision shot,
ignores cover is no cover saves against wounds pens or glances
power weapons are the same
Psyhic powers
Iron arm doesnt give EW anymore,
enfeeble is minus 1 str and toughness treats all terrain as difficult
Endurance is warp charge 2, targets friendly unit, they gain EW, FNP 4+ and relentless wow
rest are pretty much the same, the numbers have changed though (i.e endurance is now 5)
Prescience is wc2 now, 12inch range gives re roll to hit still
Foreboding is the same
Forewarning is the same
perfect timing is the same
Pre cog is the same
Misfortune, is different, all attacks that target that unit have the rending special rule... wow
Scriers gaze is you can now re roll the reserves roll outflank and mysterious objective
Daemonology we all know from leaks
santic no 6 is vortex of doom, str d small blast
pyro is still crap
Telekinesis, no gate....
replaced with levitation
targets the psyker he may move 12inches... they then cannot charge
psyhic malestrom is no 6, wc3, str 10 ap1 large blast barrage
Telepathy
Dominate the same
mental fort, the same
terrify, -1 ld, treats all units as having fear, and must take moral check end of phase, no longer removes fearless
Shourding, new power, gives pskyer and all units within 6 shrouded
Invis, all units targetting the unit with it cast on can only snap shot at it
Hallicunation, the same?
thanks for the infos! very interesting stuff - i can't wait to get my book and start making some lists!
1 Question - are FMC's NEVER scoring, or only when they're in Swoop mode? What about swarms? Thanks again!
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/05/21 21:33:50
Subject: Re:40k 7th Edition release 24th may (may 17th pre-order) confirmed - All info 1st post, new vid p184
Wilson wrote: Anyone know or have an opinion on whether you can perils more than once?
Example : used 6 warp charges to cast summoning.
Roll 1,1,2,2,3,3 ( bad luck, I know right?)
Would you suffer 3 perils of the warp? Or just the once?
Once
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2014/05/21 21:34:33
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
MarkyMark wrote: Just got the book, quite interesting small changes, annoyed that terrify no longer removes fearless though. I have wrote a few things I have noticed if anyone wants to read
Spoiler:
So got the book. Will jot down the things I notice
There is now a start of turn which is specfically before movement
Mastery level governs how many spells you can attempt to cast per psyhic phase as well as how many spells you generate. Psykers that take all their spells from one table know the sig spell. So lvl 1';s will know the sig and another random spell but you can only cast 1.
Psykers can know the same spells (which is a big difference form fantasy)
Perils table is pretty much take a wound with no saves of any kind, plus another feature, the rumours are true for these (on 1 you do a ld test, pass you take a wound, fail removed from play).
Something chew just asked, it is indeed correct IC's cannot join units that contain MCs or vehicles....
snap shots are bs1 still
Overwatch is still as it is now, no test to do it, no penatly for doing it
Charging through terrain is -2 to distance rolled and still int1
Multi assault. Still the same up to this point
A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contat with a unegaged model in primary target (think thats different?)
The wording for jet pack thrust move is still the same, in that it describes the jet pack unit. Cannot find anything to explain what a jet pack unit is....
FMC's cannot charge is they have changed flight mode that turn.
swooping is 12 to 24 still, 90degree turn before it moves, still run 2d6, grounding is still on a 1 or 2 and suffering a wound has to test end of phase but if grounded can charge.
Flyers now, if immobilsed crash and burn on a 1 or 2,
Ignoring the rest of the vehicle section for now (yes super heavies are in)
Excess wounds are indeed transferred to the unit from challenges
Ignoring terrain for now
Deployements are still the same
'Night fighting is just everyone has stealth
FMCS, zooming flyers or units in them are not scoring, claimed buildings are SCORING LOL With reserves, I am struggling to find how much you can reserve, it doesnt actually say!
force weapons are now acitvated in the psyhic phase, one test for the unit
Dedicated transports can now infiltrate
IC's cannot infiltate with a unit unless he has infiltrate as well
Jink is 4+ but can only fire snap shots until end of their next turn
You need a 6 to hit for precision shot,
ignores cover is no cover saves against wounds pens or glances
power weapons are the same
Psyhic powers
Iron arm doesnt give EW anymore,
enfeeble is minus 1 str and toughness treats all terrain as difficult
Endurance is warp charge 2, targets friendly unit, they gain EW, FNP 4+ and relentless wow
rest are pretty much the same, the numbers have changed though (i.e endurance is now 5)
Prescience is wc2 now, 12inch range gives re roll to hit still
Foreboding is the same
Forewarning is the same
perfect timing is the same
Pre cog is the same
Misfortune, is different, all attacks that target that unit have the rending special rule... wow
Scriers gaze is you can now re roll the reserves roll outflank and mysterious objective
Daemonology we all know from leaks
santic no 6 is vortex of doom, str d small blast
pyro is still crap
Telekinesis, no gate....
replaced with levitation
targets the psyker he may move 12inches... they then cannot charge
psyhic malestrom is no 6, wc3, str 10 ap1 large blast barrage
Telepathy
Dominate the same
mental fort, the same
terrify, -1 ld, treats all units as having fear, and must take moral check end of phase, no longer removes fearless
Shourding, new power, gives pskyer and all units within 6 shrouded
Invis, all units targetting the unit with it cast on can only snap shot at it
Hallicunation, the same?
What are the rules for each alliance type?
What exactly does Destroyer weapons do now?
Are there any changes to GCs and Super-heavies?
2014/05/21 21:35:28
Subject: 40k 7th Edition release 24th may - All info in 1st post, psychic power cards added (5/21)
swarms i think ARE scoring, doesnt say in the USR section about scoring and not denied to score in the scoring section.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not looked at GC yet or D weapons,
S&P the same
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:36:24
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
do you roll perils twice or just once?
3000
4000 
