Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

VD cha(r)t
1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilised
7 explodes (S4 within D6")

AP2 + 1 to damage chart; AP1 + 2

Okay, this is really bad. They changed the damage chart in worst possible way, by adding one more step of Shaken. What this means now is that units which rely on one big shot killing an enemy tank - such as Hammerhead and Vanquisher - are useless now, since their odds of destroying the enemy are dramatically lowered: by 1/3 for Railhead and 1/2 (!) for Vanquisher. There is now simply absolutely no point taking those units anymore since they're unable to perform their primary task. Only reliable way to kill vehicles now is glance them to death, which means spamming even more S7/S8 weapons than before. This was completely wrong way to fix vehicles. Also, they apparently did not change assaulting vehicles at all.

Another disappointing aspect is that USR's have apparently not been fixed at all. There are still all the same stuff which was annoying in 6th, such as Preferred Enemy being way too good, or Hatred being way too weak. Well, it's not like anyone was using Chaplains anymore.

So, if Graviton stays the same, does it mean that it still ignores vechicle saves with impunity?

Also, I hope "Night vision ignores Night Fighting" isn't written like that in the book

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
[

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:
Horrors are ML1 regardless of size aren't they? Unless their special rule translates properly into the new system?

the more horrors per unit the higher the ML, up to 3

That's not what my codex says, they get more old-style Warp Charges with unit size, their ML doesn't increase.

Do we allready know how Conjured Units behave? I couldn't find anything.

- Can they move/cast/shoot/assault the turn they are summoned?
- Do they scatter or can you place them?
- Are they affected by terrain?
- Do Conjured troops have the superscoringrule?
- How do they interact with the rest of the force? (e.g. are Bloodthirsters friendly to your Imperial forces or is it more complicated?)

Thnx for any answers!

Cilithan

 Shandara wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
[

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:
Horrors are ML1 regardless of size aren't they? Unless their special rule translates properly into the new system?

the more horrors per unit the higher the ML, up to 3

That's not what my codex says, they get more old-style Warp Charges with unit size, their ML doesn't increase.

thats true: i stand corrected.

Mark kelly wrote:
Mark seeing as you never beat my in 6th Do you think you have a chance with 7th?

IS that the all of 1 game?, maybe this time we will get the rules right and not give you a massive advantage my dear friend

 insaniak wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Anything goes with orks really.

...which is exactly why them not having access to anything except for Daemonology and Force powers (when they don't even have Force weapons) is a bit of a strange design choice.

In game terms and fluff terms, yes, it is strange. In GW, "we need to sell more models to every player of an army terms", it makes perfect sense.

This is why I say with this, super heavies and D-Weapons becoming standard and, let's not forget, the silliness that Unbound will become that 40k is jumping the shark with this edition - just like WHFB jumped the shark with 8th edition.

Sure, there will be some who like it, but I am willing to bet that there will be far more who do not like that the fluff, structure and sanity of scale has been completely thrown out the window, and it will have more of the effect on 40k that 8th edition had on WHFB.

The next few months will be interesting.

Seems like the chances to DtW are not so bad after all, at least it seems that WC 1 powers will be quite unreliable (going to be cast with 3 at 87% chance and denied at a 42% chance with the same amount of dices).

Deny 1 WC:

1: 16.6%
2: 30.6%
3: 42.1%
4: 51.5%
5: 60%
6: 65.3%
7: 73%

Deny 2 WC:

1 : 0
2 : 2.8%
3 : 7.4%
4 : 13%
5 : 19.2%
6 : 26.1%
7 : 34.6%
8 : 42.4%

Deny 3 WC:

1 : 0
2 : 0
3 : 0.4%
4 : 1.5%
5 : 3.2%
6 : 5.3%
7 : 7.8%
8 : 10.4%


Also, conjured demons are not part of the detachment, so i don't think that they are super scoring. Based on the Alliance matrix they could even be not scoring.

The new psychic phase is still a nerf to psychic heavy armies. No matter how you look at it. Sure a mastery level 3 psyker may have good chances to cast prescience. But before he could cast prescience AND two other powers.

A lvl 3 psyker may now cast one WC1 power around the same chance as he could cast three WC1 powers before. That's two less powers.
If you want to reliably cast a WC2 power (prescience) with 5 dice, you have a 81% chance of succes. A LD10 psyker had a 91% chance to cast the power in 6th. That's a 10% difference! You need 6-7 dice now to have around the same chance of success.
With 5 dice you have a 13% (!!!) chance of perils with worse potential results. 6 dice is 19% and your chance at casting a WC2 power is still worse than a ld10 psyker in 6th.
Deny the witch may be very slim on a blessing, but it's there.

So tell me, how in hell is a psychic army not nerfed in 7th? The only boon are the very powerful malefic powers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing to nerf psyker spam. They are still very efficient in low numbers. Because the D6 roll is worth more with fewer psychers.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, Sisters didn't get a codex, they got an errata they had to pay for that dragged the army down an alley and beat it with a nerf bat.

That's... A very cynical view of it. Yes it wasn't on-par with other codexes, but it's still much better than the short, OOP WD codex. And I'm pretty sure it's regarded as similarly or more competetive than the WD codex.

I could go through unit by unit and explain what's wrong, but to sum up: they nerfed Acts of Faith, they didn't lower points on anything other than the Exorcist (which was a nice touch but largely unneeded) they didn't bother keeping Kyrinov or the Seraphim Superior around and yanked them from the codex. I really don't feel it was better because it didn't address the problems the WD codex had, and in some respects made things worse (nuked Repentia from ever seeing the table at this point).

It's a codex so bad I shelved my army and don't have ANY desire to play them under this book. And I not only played the WD codex for it's entire run but added to my army. Now I just get depressed everytime I look at them. I can't even bring myself to paint them. It's just THAT bad. Hell the codex murdering my fun like it did made me take a step back from 40k and not play anything in nearly a year. I barely even paint and I love painting models.

Like I've said earlier, I'm sitting on the fence on if I'll even play 7th and the way the Sisters were handled was a major factor in that.

Just for fun, here are suggestions I sent into GW back in December for Sisters (link). I'll be tweaking it and resubmitting it for 7th as well as everything else I can think of rules wise to the GW Dev team. If anyone has any suggestions of things I should be aware of problem wise with a codex (beyond Wave Serpents, I know that one) PM me. Why am I mailing the stuff in by post? Because it's the only way I really know how make sure the Dev team actually sees it. The FAQs doesn't seem to get the point across so the best I can do is send them a small tome of information and feedback, If they don't like it, fine. But at least I'm communicating my grievances clearly and directly.

Backfire wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

VD cha(r)t
1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilised
7 explodes (S4 within D6")

AP2 + 1 to damage chart; AP1 + 2

Okay, this is really bad. They changed the damage chart in worst possible way, by adding one more step of Shaken. What this means now is that units which rely on one big shot killing an enemy tank - such as Hammerhead and Vanquisher - are useless now, since their odds of destroying the enemy are dramatically lowered: by 1/3 for Railhead and 1/2 (!) for Vanquisher. There is now simply absolutely no point taking those units anymore since they're unable to perform their primary task. Only reliable way to kill vehicles now is glance them to death, which means spamming even more S7/S8 weapons than before. This was completely wrong way to fix vehicles. Also, they apparently did not change assaulting vehicles at all.

Its surprising how such a small change can so significantly change the survivability of vehicles. And as you say, especially for these models whose sole aim was to 1-shot other tanks. Going to need to look into big melta squads or something now, especially with the impending rise of all-Russ armies.

People read far to much into Unbound. Its a 5 line passage in the rule book basically telling you that if you and your opponent agree you may use an unbound army. unbound troop choices aren't even denial units when going against a battle forged army.

 Blacksails wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


And I can't do it anymore!

I can't exalt this whole post enough.

Hear, hear. I feel the exact same after twenty years of seeing this happen repeatedly. The only difference now, however, is that GW is almost a one-trick pony (40k) now so they HAVE to keep up this pace even faster with 40k to make up for the absurd business decisions of putting all their eggs in one basket.

Right now with 40k kind of reminds me of just before 8th edition WHFB - and we know what that edition did to WHFB. I have a feeling 7th edition 40k is about to do the same for 40k.

The only thing they had left was the fluff, and that held many, now even that is being thrown out the window for the sake of "sell more models"!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Weidekuh wrote:

Spoiler:

Trasvi wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:

Thanks. This is what i tried to tell all those "OMG psykers will be the new OPness"-screamer since this new system is known. Casting powers got nerfed...a LOT!

1 masterylevel: D6+1 power dice. Average of 4.5 dice.
4.5 dice per warpcharge.

3 masterylevels: D6+3 power dice. Average of 6.5 dice.
2.167 dice per warpcharge.

5 masterylevels: D6+5 power dice. Average of 8.5 dice.
= 1.7 dice per warpcharge

10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice.
= 1.35 dice per warpcharge.

The more psykers you have, the worse they get. Having many mastery levels is very unefficient.
In 6th you are able to succesfully cast most powers, even with 10 psykers in your army. In 7th you will only ever cast very few powers.

This could seriously impact Tyranids or Demons.

You're doing the analysis wrong. Its more like:
1 Mastery Level = 4.5 Power dice = Can't reliably cast prescience.
3 Mastery Levels = 6.5 Power Dice = Can cast prescience.
This is something we've seen in Fantasy for the last 4+ editions: one Lv4 Wizard being funnelled power dice by 2-3 Lv2 'mana batteries'. You cast less spells than the total that you have, but you definitely end up casting more spells overall...

And on the other hand, denying just got a lot harder as well. The best you can hope for is dispelling a 1 WC power that only managed 1 success. If someone manages to cast a power with 3 successes at you, even rolling 10 dice to deny still has a less than 1/6 chance.

Here's a daemon army, I think something similar to this will be quite competitive:
Kairos
4x Lv3 Heralds
3x 11 Horrors
3x Lv3 Tzeentch Princes
^^ That should be a legal battleforged 1850 army, depending on upgrades. 31 + D6 power dice. Lets say with rolling large numbers, that is manifesting 3x Summoning/Incursion/Possession, 2x Cursed Ground, 1x Sacrifice. Calling it the Daemon Factory (House of Horrors?tm).

Of course this is pretty much the most psyker heavy battleforged army possible (I think 52 warlocks beats it nicely in unbound).
So I think we will have this weird middle ground of 2-4 psykers where you don't get much returns; 1 pskyer provides alright defense; but a full army of psykers like above will cast 4-6 awesome powers per turn.

The new psychic phase is still a nerf to psychic heavy armies. No matter how you look at it. Sure a mastery level 3 psyker may have good chances to cast prescience. But before he could cast prescience AND two other powers.

A lvl 3 psyker may now cast one WC1 power around the same chance as he could cast three WC1 powers before. That's two less powers.
If you want to reliably cast a WC2 power (prescience) with 5 dice, you have a 81% chance of succes. A LD10 psyker had a 91% chance to cast the power in 6th. That's a 10% difference! You need 6-7 dice now to have around the same chance of success.
With 5 dice you have a 13% (!!!) chance of perils with worse potential results. 6 dice is 19% and your chance at casting a WC2 power is still worse than a ld10 psyker in 6th.
Deny the witch may be very slim on a blessing, but it's there.

So tell me, how in hell is a psychic army not nerfed in 7th? The only boon are the very powerful malefic powers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing to nerf psyker spam. They are still very efficient in low numbers. Because the D6 roll is worth more with fewer psychers.

Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.

Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.

How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Heck, even the designers at GW admit that Unbound and Daemonic entirely change the game! Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.

 Wayshuba wrote:
Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.

Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.

How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.

This was covered many many pages ago. The Daemon summoning factory is a thing, but it isn't a game breaking thing. The maths for that were done and it didn't seem scary really neither did it seem points efficient. All though id love to play test it and confirm it for sure.

Prescience is the most game changing power we got at the moment (and probably will still be). Re rolling to hit is just that good.
It's going from a LD10 test on any psyker to a WC2 power, meaning that it requires an army wide effort to cast it for non psyk focused armies with a high risk of peril. Also a non dedicated Psyk army will counter it 20% of the times.

Taking Coteaz in your army will no longer mean guaranteed Prescience, if you roll 1 or 2 on your dices that's quite a hard cast.

Having 3 lvl 1 IG psykers will no longer mean 3 presciences around, but maybe 1.

bodazoka wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.

Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.

How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.

This was covered many many pages ago. The Daemon summoning factory is a thing, but it isn't a game breaking thing. The maths for that were done and it didn't seem scary really neither did it seem points efficient. All though id love to play test it and confirm it for sure.

Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).

As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?

Do you know anything about Chariots? Their vector strike, if they count as engage in combat, wich side of armour are you hitting....

 Wayshuba wrote:
Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).

As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?

Because you are not going to be able to summon that many extra points in your army when you count things like perils, psychic defense, dispel dice pool etc.. at the end of the day. Your Daemon's are the only guys who are going to reliably cast these powers (perils is brutal for your Eldar) also. We also don't know if these summoned unit's are scoring and how this daemon factory is going to work with the new missions. Still a long way off the sky falling in from this power, I would hold my powder untill the maths is done, the games are tested and the dust settles.

As a Nid player I was ready to be shafted. FMC's and taking CtA allies is pretty nice, still restricted to Codex powers and WL traits, ok see it coming....

But they've been taking many rules and mechanics that make Tyranids cool and distributing for a while. We've seen more MC's being handed to other armies, even worse many have better stats than our supposedly strongest. Now having deathleapers rules , venomthrope rules, and the scoring rules from the skyblight dataslate have been handed out on different tables / down right in the basic rules with other unique elements which were just dropped (Dooooooooom)....

I can live with bad balance, bad power level, but this? ; ___ ;.

And I'm not negative often lol.

Hive Crone, meet shelf.

anything new on the starter?

No starter.

bodazoka wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).

As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?

Because you are not going to be able to summon that many extra points in your army when you count things like perils, psychic defense, dispel dice pool etc.. at the end of the day. Your Daemon's are the only guys who are going to reliably cast these powers (perils is brutal for your Eldar) also. We also don't know if these summoned unit's are scoring and how this daemon factory is going to work with the new missions. Still a long way off the sky falling in from this power, I would hold my powder untill the maths is done, the games are tested and the dust settles.

If it works like fantasy, you in fact will be able to summon that many in a battle, accounting for dispels, etc. Psychic defense/Deny the Witch does nothing since the summoning does not target a model. Secondly, the Perils is not very effective against the Eldar when you have a Ghosthelm (thereby preventing the wound) and you have a ton of Warlocks to act as mana batteries for the high level psychers.

Less than a week ago, before the full powers were known, many were also saying Santic would balance it. Guess what, Sanctic doesn't do a thing to prevent it. Even "Banishment" only gives a -1 to an IS (doesn't sound like it is banishing anything to me).

One must remember, GW wants you to be able to summon that many during battle. They want it to be game breaking. They want it to throw the power curve out of whack so that others, to keep up, will also have to adapt to that power curve. This is what sells a ton of new models to someone who already owns 5,000 points of a particular army. It has been that way for 20 years with them and every edition. Why does anyone think it will be different THIS time?

I have a feeling that Tigurius is going to be one of the most powerful casters in the game, just due to his fancy psychic hood.

Even if it's just rerolling the power dice if you fail the psychic test, that's pretty damn good. If it's rerolling failed power dice...

Thanks for all the answers Markymark.

Could you check desparate allies. Are these scoring ? Are troops from desp.allies super scoring ?

Key thing is whether summoned creatures come with warp charge (I suspect not) or if they can charge? Has this been answered?

Seeming Warp Charges aren't generated on a per-model basis and that they are generated at the start of the psychic phase, no, I doubt just-summoned psykers will have charges.

Did they fix how summoned units generate their powers?

Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.

The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:

1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.

Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?

 Wayshuba wrote:
As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?

That doesn't take into account the fact that you need to tie resources up to summon additional forces and those same resources could be used to achieve other things, like killing the enemy or preserving your own forces.

If the same resources you use to summon one unit of a given value could instead be used to either kill an enemy unit of similar value or save an existing unit of similar value, the overall effect is pretty close.

Summoning is only broken if it allows you to call in additional forces that are more effective than what you could destroy or preserve with a similar investment in points and warp charges.