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Loopstah wrote:
Glad I only play at a GW so I can actually try out some games of 7th without worrying about people doing knee-jerk changes without really giving it a chance.

To call them knee jerk is frankly insulting, it assumes the players and forum members don't have thought behind their motivations which is factually incorrect, in fact many of them have shared their reasons FOR the changes they would make. Perhaps you could support WHY you think the specific changes they've suggested would not be advisable.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
No really, please field this list against mine. I've never lost a game against Draigo star, I really don't see the appeal in it.

Between my DE pouring buckets of wounds on it and skirmishing back each time they move, the one time I had an Ork Shokk Attak Gun wipe out half the unit in one shot, and the hilarity of watching that try to last against a squadron of Leman Russ Executioners/Demolishers, plasma/melta vets and more, I've more than gotten over any fear of that particular deathstar.

And lol, Vindicare. "I'll snipe your SE/Shadowfield!" you croak. Well, if I'm playing SM, my Thunderfire cannon, Devastators, Storm Talons, and hiding the CM from LOS appropriately can all rip him to pieces before that happens. If I'm playing DE, frankly lol. One 2x SC Venom can ruin the Vindicare's day.

Dev Cent stars aren't really intimidating to my Ork hordes, my Guardsmen hordes, my tank squadrons, or my DE as a whole. Against my Marines, I just won't give you any infantry to shoot at - even if it means reserving them.

Your troops are garbage outside of the Draigostar and would be obscenely lucky to reach the middle of the board, much less my side.

That's all quite presumptive. I played my Draigowing cold at a GT and went 4-2. I'm not a slouch player. I wouldn't so easily allow you to get First Blood off the Vindicare, even reserving him for later if necessary.

Since we're going for the ideal scenario, you won't be able to gundown my Paladinstar as you will only be snapfiring at it. I can easily table you with any other prospect as I have the sheer inertia of two death stars. I can thin out hordes with the paladins and handle any heavy threat with centurions. Both are beasts in H2H with the proper buffs dispensed.

My little ML1 Psykers have little risk for perils if I just 1 Dice their pie plate spells, which will also thin the hordes quite well, too.

So don't be so quite presumptive. You sound awfully cocky when these style of Death Stars have been winning GTs for the past year where as everything you're suggesting has not.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Glad I only play at a GW so I can actually try out some games of 7th without worrying about people doing knee-jerk changes without really giving it a chance.

To call them knee jerk is frankly insulting, it assumes the players and forum members don't have thought behind their motivations which is factually incorrect, in fact many of them have shared their reasons FOR the changes they would make. Perhaps you could support WHY you think the specific changes they've suggested would not be advisable.

You do realise 7th was released today right? I'd say making big changes to anything the day it was released is a knee-jerk reaction. I understand a few people got books earlier but even so it seems more a "OMG change, burn it with fire!" than actually playing an adequate number of trial games to see if perceived problems are actually real problems.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Glad I only play at a GW so I can actually try out some games of 7th without worrying about people doing knee-jerk changes without really giving it a chance.

To call them knee jerk is frankly insulting, it assumes the players and forum members don't have thought behind their motivations which is factually incorrect, in fact many of them have shared their reasons FOR the changes they would make. Perhaps you could support WHY you think the specific changes they've suggested would not be advisable.

i think his knee jerk comment is more to do with people making rules changes without actually playing any 7th edition games

 ironicsilence wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Glad I only play at a GW so I can actually try out some games of 7th without worrying about people doing knee-jerk changes without really giving it a chance.

To call them knee jerk is frankly insulting, it assumes the players and forum members don't have thought behind their motivations which is factually incorrect, in fact many of them have shared their reasons FOR the changes they would make. Perhaps you could support WHY you think the specific changes they've suggested would not be advisable.

i think his knee jerk comment is more to do with people making rules changes without actually playing any 7th edition games

I'm liking plenty of the rules changes from 6th to 7th, none of which would be effected by basic formatting and re-introducing the relevlance of force organization. Liking that barrage wounding works better isn't likely to have an effect on my dislike for super heavies, fortification and allies, things I dislike for the entirety of 6th. I don't know wht a number changing from 6th to 7th should have me giving crap I never liked to begin with a fair shake. That's not knee jerk at all, that basic common sense.

Has anyone else noticed that if you Deplay first you can now CHOOSE to go first or second AFTER your openent has deployed ?!

What the frick!!!!

Wilson wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that if you Deplay first you can now CHOOSE to go first or second AFTER your openent has deployed ?!

What the frick!!!!

That helps diminish the advantage of going second - you can only choose to go second if the first player gets to react to your deployment.

I don't understand how people can be house ruling a game that came out yesterday, without actually playing any games. While the intrawebz has often forecast the apocalypse pending the release of every edition of 40k since 3rd, very rarely does the stuff imagined on the web actually see the table.

Sure, anecdotally you might hear about 3000 points of demons, or kneeling wraithlords, or 50 3-man acolyte squads, or 24 ghazkhuls as an army, but I expect to never actually see one. Much like the loch ness monster.

I'm interested to see how it all plays out, and play a number of games before making any decision about balance or house rules, or whatever.

 Crablezworth wrote:


I'm liking plenty of the rules changes from 6th to 7th, none of which would be effected by basic formatting and re-introducing the relevlance of force organization. Liking that barrage wounding works better isn't likely to have an effect on my dislike for super heavies, fortification and allies, things I dislike for the entirety of 6th. I don't know wht a number changing from 6th to 7th should have me giving crap I never liked to begin with a fair shake. That's not knee jerk at all, that basic common sense.

If you didn't use things in 6th then not using them in 7th makes sense. Banning something like Daemonology when we don't even know which psykers (maybe not every Psyker in every army) can actually use it until we get FAQ clarification is an example of a knee-jerk reaction.

Until everyone is up on all the changes and is testing armies built for 7th against each other (as 6th optimised builds may be less effective against one optimised for 7th) then making changes is more based on fear than reality.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


The big squad with a nob assaults a single Daemon Prince with a bunch of attacks that has a higher initiative (all of them have a higher initiative than orks) The Daemon Prince makes a challenge. Two choices.
1. Accept. The nob gets killed and the excess wounds kill a few more boyz. The boys cannot attack or engage the prince.
2. refuse. The only guy with a real chance to hurt the Prince can't attack it.
That was why I asked about Monstrous creatures.

So they didn't fix this, they actually made it worse, and they didn't fix anything in assault.

The boyz in the first situation will maul down on the prince. If the unit has no other target it can attack the challenger. The prince hurling a challenge is actually perfectly fluffy, it is him that ignores the orks looking for the big one. So he rolls against his AC and can hurt only him until he is death, but the other orks can slap him freely.

actually you cant HIT into a challenge, you can have excess wounds spill into it, but you cant hit a model thats in a challenge whilst outside it

Hmm... So does this mean that if your normal marines wipe out the enemy unit, and your Powerfist guy goes last with the only enemy model remaining being in a challenge with your character, the powerfist guy can't actually attack? I can't find anything in the rules that says that models not involved in the challenge can't hit the challenger. It only says they can't allocate wounds to him until the rest of his unit is wiped out.

Loopstah wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:


I'm liking plenty of the rules changes from 6th to 7th, none of which would be effected by basic formatting and re-introducing the relevlance of force organization. Liking that barrage wounding works better isn't likely to have an effect on my dislike for super heavies, fortification and allies, things I dislike for the entirety of 6th. I don't know wht a number changing from 6th to 7th should have me giving crap I never liked to begin with a fair shake. That's not knee jerk at all, that basic common sense.

If you didn't use things in 6th then not using them in 7th makes sense. Banning something like Daemonology when we don't even know which psykers (maybe not every Psyker in every army) can actually use it until we get FAQ clarification is an example of a knee-jerk reaction.

Until everyone is up on all the changes and is testing armies built for 7th against each other (as 6th optimised builds may be less effective against one optimised for 7th) then making changes is more based on fear than reality.

I don't recall calling for banning daemonology. Perhaps you've confused me for wilson.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cruentus wrote:
I don't understand how people can be house ruling a game that came out yesterday, without actually playing any games

Maybe it has to do with the fact that those individuals have played warhammer 40k before...

Almost like when a restaurant unveils a new menu, it doesn't cause individuals to forget their food allergies..

 Cruentus wrote:
I don't understand how people can be house ruling a game that came out yesterday, without actually playing any games. While the intrawebz has often forecast the apocalypse pending the release of every edition of 40k since 3rd, very rarely does the stuff imagined on the web actually see the table.

Sure, anecdotally you might hear about 3000 points of demons, or kneeling wraithlords, or 50 3-man acolyte squads, or 24 ghazkhuls as an army, but I expect to never actually see one. Much like the loch ness monster.

I'm interested to see how it all plays out, and play a number of games before making any decision about balance or house rules, or whatever.

40k has been around for quite some time as I have been playing it and am intellgent enough to relise what I find fun to play.

Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

You know what I think would be funny to see in a tournament that allowed unbound? That guy that won every 2k point match by bringing 11 heldrakes facing that guy who lost every 2k pointm atch by bringing 27 hydras.

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

An extra $100 for 6 objective markers, a picture book, and a cardboard box ?

It's seriously overpriced.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

An extra $100 for 6 objective markers, a picture book, and a cardboard box ?

It's seriously overpriced.

the map!!! dont forget the map! and the rest is just tax for not having to deal with the eyesore that is uriel rakarth decorating your rulebook cover.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

An extra $100 for 6 objective markers, a picture book, and a cardboard box ?

It's seriously overpriced.

the map!!! dont forget the map! and the rest is just tax for not having to deal with the eyesore that is uriel rakarth decorating your rulebook cover.

Well if no one is going to play dark eldar in 7th at least they can make a cameo on some of the book covers lol


Is that a raider full of models I see? HELDRAKE!

As has everything been with GW.

This isn't a new statement.

But yes, we can only hope GW gets the message. We don't want crap and sure not going to over-pay for it.

Take your game back!

The standard rules are overpriced. With so many new game systems available , GW is making it harder and harder for me to stay on board.

Basimpo wrote:
You know what I think would be funny to see in a tournament that allowed unbound? That guy that won every 2k point match by bringing 11 heldrakes facing that guy who lost every 2k pointm atch by bringing 27 hydras.

Still think my mates idea of 75 Grot Cannons at 1500pts is pretty much unbeatable? They can play him - not that he has 75 cannons of course..............like alot of these lists?

One thing I noticed that I didn't already see mentioned already in the thread.

Reading over the rulebook now I found that Eldar Jetbikes can only move 2D6" in the Assault Phase if they did not Turbo-Boot in the preceding Shooting Phase. This is a bit of a nerf for Jetbikers.

How does Overwatch work with the new shooting rules - when do you measure range (if you do) and does wall of death still work as before?

thanks

My friend and I are trying an unbound army list monday...Ive looked over unbound and find the hype to be sadly disconcerting :( I was hoping unbound would be you know, neat. Instead its a paragraph like "Do what cha wanna do, its your prerogative!" so to hear everyone yelp about it has been meh :(

My list for monday
Hive tyrant w/ Hvy vnm cannon, prehensile penser, regen, electroshock grubbs
Warrior brood (3 warriors)
Wraithguard w/Dscythe
Wave serpent w/scatter laser, shuriken cannon, ghostwalk matrix
Farseer w/singing spear
4 warlocks w/singing spear
10 warp spiders
10 swooping hawks (exarch, sunrifle and hit and run)
Night Spinner (I mean, why not?) w/shuriken cannon)
Hydra flak tank
Iron Hands Landraider
5x Iron hands Techmarine w/combi grav
Blood angels Furioso Librarian w/force sword (AB made me pick it...whatever)
12 burna boys in a Burna Trukk


Cant decide if I want to put the warriors in the LR yet or not. Most likely itll go to the warlocks...lol
Kinda serious just for funsies


Also, if anyone is using the current version of Army builder and you want to make an easy unbound list without a whole ton of rulez changing, select tyranids as your main detachment, then go to roster>change rules> select allies come the apocalypse> Choose away.
Because all allies are come the apocalypse it opens every detachment up to you, you dont even need to play any nids.

 Mr Morden wrote:
How does Overwatch work with the new shooting rules - when do you measure range (if you do) and does wall of death still work as before?

thanks

You do not have to measure range and Wall of Death is still the same. Also to note Overwatch cannot cause any Morale or Pinning Tests.

 DireAvenger20 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
How does Overwatch work with the new shooting rules - when do you measure range (if you do) and does wall of death still work as before?

thanks

You do not have to measure range and Wall of Death is still the same. Also to note Overwatch cannot cause any Morale or Pinning Tests.

thanks - appreciated

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

An extra $100 for 6 objective markers, a picture book, and a cardboard box ?

It's seriously overpriced.

It's not overpriced - it is insanely priced.

Honestly, basic rules should only be $40. $60 at most. The basic rules are already severely overpriced.

Rulebook should be $40 - like every single other full-color hardback rulebook on the market. Miniatures catalog - some nerve to even charge for it. It's a dang catalog. So value of $0. Fluff - same as it has always been and honestly, the majority of it should be in the codexes and it should account for mainly 20-30 pages in the rulebook, like every other game on the market. It doesn't need to be it's own book. It's just being done to artificially inflate the price. So, we have a true market value of $40 so far for the core rules.

Add to that the cards - $15 and $8 and the tokens (about $15 in value), the cardboard box ($2), the picture book ($20 real value like every other dang artbook) and you have a true total value of $100.

Your paying an extra $240 for what - $120 for the letter G and $120 for the letter W on the box?

 Wayshuba wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

An extra $100 for 6 objective markers, a picture book, and a cardboard box ?

It's seriously overpriced.

It's not overpriced - it is insanely priced.

Honestly, basic rules should only be $40. $60 at most. The basic rules are already severely overpriced.

Rulebook should be $40 - like every single other full-color hardback rulebook on the market. Miniatures catalog - some nerve to even charge for it. It's a dang catalog. So value of $0. Fluff - same as it has always been and honestly, the majority of it should be in the codexes and it should account for mainly 20-30 pages in the rulebook, like every other game on the market. It doesn't need to be it's own book. It's just being done to artificially inflate the price. So, we have a true market value of $40 so far for the core rules.

Add to that the cards - $15 and $8 and the tokens (about $15 in value), the cardboard box ($2), the picture book ($20 real value like every other dang artbook) and you have a true total value of $100.

Your paying an extra $240 for what - $120 for the letter G and $120 for the letter W on the box?

Hear, hear!

$240 is roughly the price for a rule book and a good sized faction in just about any other game.

Or one of those massive boxes GW now sells.

I also find their policy of releasing minis that they actually dont want you to buy unless you pay an arm and a leg for stuff you dont need to be hideous.

As if the whole shenanigans with the new webstore limited edition captain for 80 Euros worth of ordering and his cousin-in-a-code that costs 25 Euros to turn into a real miniature wasnt enough, we got this strikeforce ultra now.

 TheKbob wrote:
$240 is roughly the price for a rule book and a good sized faction in just about any other game.

Or one of those massive boxes GW now sells.

For $288 (full retail with no internet discount), I can get a rulebook and complete 1,000 point American Force for Bolt Action (as I did recently).

For $340, you get a bunch of glorified tree killing crap from GW.


Which is the better value for the money?