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 Wayshuba wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
$240 is roughly the price for a rule book and a good sized faction in just about any other game.

Or one of those massive boxes GW now sells.

For $288 (full retail with no internet discount), I can get a rulebook and complete 1,000 point American Force for Bolt Action (as I did recently).

For $340, you get a bunch of glorified tree killing crap from GW.


Which is the better value for the money?

Sadly, whichever people play around you.

Haven't tried Bolt Action yet, don't know anyone that plays it. I have local W/H, Infinity, and Malifaux groups, so that's good. I'm not much for Historicals, but Bolt Action appears to be more "gamey" instead of simulator, and I can get behind that.

For what it's worth, if you want all the models in these new massive bundles, the pricing is better than the past. If GW would have kept selling that Eldar Iyanden set, I'd have probably grabbed one as you basically almost have a 1500 pt army minus maybe a transport or two and a Spiritseer. It wasn't a bad price all things considered.

 Wayshuba wrote:


For $288 (full retail with no internet discount), I can get a rulebook and complete 1,000 point American Force for Bolt Action (as I did recently).

For $340, you get a bunch of glorified tree killing crap from GW.


Which is the better value for the money?

For me it would be the GW stuff as I don't know anybody who plays bolt action (never heard of the game either) so I'd have wasted the money on shelf warmers if I spent the $288 on it.

Value is subjective.

Loopstah wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:


For $288 (full retail with no internet discount), I can get a rulebook and complete 1,000 point American Force for Bolt Action (as I did recently).

For $340, you get a bunch of glorified tree killing crap from GW.


Which is the better value for the money?

For me it would be the GW stuff as I don't know anybody who plays bolt action (never heard of the game either) so I'd have wasted the money on shelf warmers if I spent the $288 on it.

Value is subjective.

well this GW stuff will be shelf warmers in 2 years as well (possibly earlier once GW realises the rules are still an utter mess and actually decides to reformat the entire system, as unlikely as that may ever be)

You can get about as much picture value from a copy of Warhammer Visions (issue 4 is good for AM players) as the A Galaxy Of War book

I like the idea of everyone just returning 7th ed. Love to see the response from a massive influx of returned materials. Or TOs just not using the new rules in any GT.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I also find their policy of releasing minis that they actually dont want you to buy unless you pay an arm and a leg for stuff you dont need to be hideous.

As if the whole shenanigans with the new webstore limited edition captain for 80 Euros worth of ordering and his cousin-in-a-code that costs 25 Euros to turn into a real miniature wasnt enough, we got this strikeforce ultra now.

Yeah, it's disgusting when GW release a box set that gives you a discount!

There has been hints the captain terminator will be available on its own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I've just finished my first 7th game.

Narrow win for the Enclaves against a Chaos marine/daemon onslaught. Lovely stuff

 DireAvenger20 wrote:
One thing I noticed that I didn't already see mentioned already in the thread.

Reading over the rulebook now I found that Eldar Jetbikes can only move 2D6" in the Assault Phase if they did not Turbo-Boot in the preceding Shooting Phase. This is a bit of a nerf for Jetbikers.

That is unchanged from sixth. Turbo boosting prevented any further voluntary actions for bikes in a given turn.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Or TOs just not using the new rules in any GT.

This would be a massive blow to GW due to the uttermost respect and regard they hold for tournaments and competetive 40K in general OR they probably don't even know these GT even exist.

Which do you think is more likely?

 Magc8Ball wrote:

 DireAvenger20 wrote:
One thing I noticed that I didn't already see mentioned already in the thread.

Reading over the rulebook now I found that Eldar Jetbikes can only move 2D6" in the Assault Phase if they did not Turbo-Boot in the preceding Shooting Phase. This is a bit of a nerf for Jetbikers.

That is unchanged from sixth. Turbo boosting prevented any further voluntary actions for bikes in a given turn.

Thanks for letting me know, I was not aware of that.

Just finished my first game of seventh at 1000 points using the cards...

DontlikeitImisssixthedition

Wilson wrote:
Just finished my first game of seventh at 1000 points using the cards...

DontlikeitImisssixthedition

Don't play Maelstrom missions then?

Loopstah wrote:

Wilson wrote:
Just finished my first game of seventh at 1000 points using the cards...

DontlikeitImisssixthedition

Don't play Maelstrom missions then?

also thanks for providing such great feedback on not liking 7th

 ironicsilence wrote:

Loopstah wrote:

Wilson wrote:
Just finished my first game of seventh at 1000 points using the cards...

DontlikeitImisssixthedition

Don't play Maelstrom missions then?

also thanks for providing such great feedback on not liking 7th

You are most welcome Doctor Sarcasm!

Don't worry, I will not be using the cards again. which is a bit of a shame as I was hoping they could be quite good!

far too random for my liking.

On the upside, Vehicles are a lot tougher - providing you're opponent doesn't land a direct hit with orbital bombardment with ignore cover on the very first time on your Legion Sicaran and wrecks it and you're Fire Raptor doesn't gets hit by a snap firing marine with a lascannon, immobilises it and then suffer the crash and burn result on a 2.

Not a good first game of luck either!


Just as an FYI the lists where;

Master of the forge
bike, combi grav, gorgan chain
Drop pod
Tactical + melta + combi
Drop pod
Tactical + melta + combi
Drop pod
Tactical + melta + combi
Legion Sicaran
Lascannons
Fire raptor
Autocannons

VS

Tigirius - Various Divination powers
Chapter master on bike
Bikes
Grav guns+combi gravs
Bikes
Grav guns+combi gravs
Tactical squad
lascannon
Tactical squad
lascannon
Razorback
Lascannon

Was it just the cards you didnt like?

 ironicsilence wrote:
Was it just the cards you didnt like?

I can see the psychic phase being exploited and really taking over the game.

+ heavy psycher armies vs the likes of Tau and Necrons who have no psychers are really going to struggle at winning games.

Wilson wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
Was it just the cards you didnt like?

I can see the psychic phase being exploited and really taking over the game.

+ heavy psycher armies vs the likes of Tau and Necrons who have no psychers are really going to struggle at winning games.

What they realy needed to do was go balls out, and add a wargear selection page everyone can buy from for a 40k dispell scrolls and the likes as you see in fantsey.

I really fail to see how the psychic phase has changed anything at all.

The fact that enemy armies get to deny the witch even when they arent being targeted (e.g. you trying to fortune one of your squads) speaks volumes of how the psykers got nerfed.

With a more dangerous perils table, and powers only going off on 4+ for every WC they need (so you need 2 4+ to cast a WC2 spell) and you needing to risk it and say how many dice you roll from the pool BEFORE casting the spell rather than rolling one after the other until you cast it, and finally, NOT BEING ABLE TO CAST the same spell if it didnt go off for the rest of the turn even by any other psyker means psykers took the nerf bat. Now back in the previous edition, I didnt bat an eyelid when using my Farseers to cast powers. Now on the other hand, I really break a sweat hoping the powers will go off.

Its funny how now a craven warlock or frail sanctioned psyker has the same chance to cast a power as Eldrad Ulthran does.

Of course I do not have the rulebook with me, so the above paragraph may be full of errors thus kindly correct me where needed.

I am sure GW will soon introduce psyker tiers, i.e. wargear or abilities that make powers go off on a 3+ or 2+ while making enemy ones go off only on a 5+ etc. in future codexes, however long they may take.

Basimpo wrote:
My friend and I are trying an unbound army list monday...Ive looked over unbound and find the hype to be sadly disconcerting :( I was hoping unbound would be you know, neat. Instead its a paragraph like "Do what cha wanna do, its your prerogative!" so to hear everyone yelp about it has been meh :(

My list for monday
Hive tyrant w/ Hvy vnm cannon, prehensile penser, regen, electroshock grubbs
Warrior brood (3 warriors)
Wraithguard w/Dscythe
Wave serpent w/scatter laser, shuriken cannon, ghostwalk matrix
Farseer w/singing spear
4 warlocks w/singing spear
10 warp spiders
10 swooping hawks (exarch, sunrifle and hit and run)
Night Spinner (I mean, why not?) w/shuriken cannon)
Hydra flak tank
Iron Hands Landraider
5x Iron hands Techmarine w/combi grav
Blood angels Furioso Librarian w/force sword (AB made me pick it...whatever)
12 burna boys in a Burna Trukk


Cant decide if I want to put the warriors in the LR yet or not. Most likely itll go to the warlocks...lol
Kinda serious just for funsies


Also, if anyone is using the current version of Army builder and you want to make an easy unbound list without a whole ton of rulez changing, select tyranids as your main detachment, then go to roster>change rules> select allies come the apocalypse> Choose away.
Because all allies are come the apocalypse it opens every detachment up to you, you dont even need to play any nids.

Thanks for the tip on AB!

This list is an ABOMINATION!

Just got back from my flgs and spent some time talking with madmen who'd been up since last night playing back-to-back-to-back games of 7th.

There was a good mixture of armies overall, but I thought I'd share some of the stuff I was told that jumped out at me.

- The battle-forged vs. unbound stuff didn't break the game for these players, even with guys who intentionally made the most "game breaking" lists possible.

- Universally the idea of scoring drop pods was dumb. That needs to be pushed out in an faq. Essentially any army running mass pods won objective games.

- People thought the maelstrom of war missions were fun, but too random to play regularly. They felt like too often they were stuck with a card they couldn't use and/or whoever got the "slay the opponent's warlord" card would win by default.

- FMCs took a hit according to demon players, but it was made up for with chariots. They seem to be the go-to unit in 7th if you have them.

- Walkers and tanks performed really well, land raiders didn't earn their points back. My local meta will favor mass razorbacks and predators over big expensive heavy vehicles.

- Wounds spilling over from challenges had major implications in games they played. This could be a change in mindset needing to occur, but throwing a cheap sergeant into a challenge is a bad idea.

- Demonology was far too unreliable, even for demons or GK. Across the board lvl2 and 3 powers were too risky to get off without perils. One player built a list around the idea of summoning in mass demons and was tabled quickly by tyranids.

- Marines are really strong this edition (gasp) and their few weaknesses are no longer weaknesses. Universally they felt like the hardest hit army was Tau and Necrons gained the most across the board.

- Assault became slightly more effective, but not enough to reliably run an assault army with success.

- Largely the result was positive. Most players said that while wound allocation and shooting takes longer there's a lot less ambiguity in the book. Anecdotally the game moved faster, even though there was more to do.

 Auswin wrote:
Just got back from my flgs and spent some time talking with madmen who'd been up since last night playing back-to-back-to-back games of 7th.

There was a good mixture of armies overall, but I thought I'd share some of the stuff I was told that jumped out at me.

- The battle-forged vs. unbound stuff didn't break the game for these players, even with guys who intentionally made the most "game breaking" lists possible.

- Universally the idea of scoring drop pods was dumb. That needs to be pushed out in an faq. Essentially any army running mass pods won objective games.

- People thought the maelstrom of war missions were fun, but too random to play regularly. They felt like too often they were stuck with a card they couldn't use and/or whoever got the "slay the opponent's warlord" card would win by default.

- FMCs took a hit according to demon players, but it was made up for with chariots. They seem to be the go-to unit in 7th if you have them.

- Walkers and tanks performed really well, land raiders didn't earn their points back. My local meta will favor mass razorbacks and predators over big expensive heavy vehicles.

- Wounds spilling over from challenges had major implications in games they played. This could be a change in mindset needing to occur, but throwing a cheap sergeant into a challenge is a bad idea.

- Demonology was far too unreliable, even for demons or GK. Across the board lvl2 and 3 powers were too risky to get off without perils. One player built a list around the idea of summoning in mass demons and was tabled quickly by tyranids.

- Marines are really strong this edition (gasp) and their few weaknesses are no longer weaknesses. Universally they felt like the hardest hit army was Tau and Necrons gained the most across the board.

- Assault became slightly more effective, but not enough to reliably run an assault army with success.

- Largely the result was positive. Most players said that while wound allocation and shooting takes longer there's a lot less ambiguity in the book. Anecdotally the game moved faster, even though there was more to do.

Yeah mega scoring drop pods sounds terrible. I'm not really a fan of the new scoring system all together. They could have just axed the kill point mission and made that mission crusade with scoring elite and it would have been better.

Good to hear about play testing. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Auswin wrote:

- Demonology was far too unreliable, even for demons or GK. Across the board lvl2 and 3 powers were too risky to get off without perils. One player built a list around the idea of summoning in mass demons and was tabled quickly by tyranids.

This doesn't sound right. It shouldn't be "scary" for daemons as they perils on the standard two 6s. And you then push out cascading troops who choke the board. You only risk nearly dead units to push the Herald/Possession powers. If you only have 3 pink horrors left, who cares if you 12 dice possession? Perils, but the spell still goes off thus they are killed anyways and replaced with a Lord of Change.

Using that tree tactically in a daemons army still seems a crazy strong strategy. I want to see the more tournament level folks trying it over a few games to negate dice nonsense.

Edit, proposed list:

Is Slow and Purposeful and Salvo Weapons unchanged?

It always struck me as odd that Grav Cannons had a 2/4 profile when the only unit wielding them - Grav Cents - were SnP and thus always shot 4 shots each.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Slow and Purposeful and Salvo Weapons unchanged?

It always struck me as odd that Grav Cannons had a 2/4 profile when the only unit wielding them - Grav Cents - were SnP and thus always shot 4 shots each.

Grav weapons are salvo, so Grav Cannons are salvo too. That's just how GW does things.

 Toburk wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Is Slow and Purposeful and Salvo Weapons unchanged?

It always struck me as odd that Grav Cannons had a 2/4 profile when the only unit wielding them - Grav Cents - were SnP and thus always shot 4 shots each.

Grav weapons are salvo, so Grav Cannons are salvo too. That's just how GW does things.

well Bolters are rapid fire and Heavy Bolters are Heavy....and hot-shot lasguns are rapid-fire while hot-shot volley guns are salvo. So, not sure what you are going on about, mate

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

I'd buy that set for a $100 if that was the price... but $340!! Nothing in there worth that! I'd like the small rule book and the tokens, the map is cool... That's it. So yes it is funny they're sitting on so many.

 Kelly502 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:


Isnt it funny how the munitorum edition still hasn't sold out yet?

Literally nobody wants to buy the crap anymore and GW has been sitting on some 300 copies all day.

I'd buy that set for a $100 if that was the price... but $340!! Nothing in there worth that! I'd like the small rule book and the tokens, the map is cool... That's it. So yes it is funny they're sitting on so many.

Well the updated dark vengeance, will be available soon, so small rule books for all.

 TheKbob wrote:
Good to hear about play testing. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Auswin wrote:

- Demonology was far too unreliable, even for demons or GK. Across the board lvl2 and 3 powers were too risky to get off without perils. One player built a list around the idea of summoning in mass demons and was tabled quickly by tyranids.

This doesn't sound right. It shouldn't be "scary" for daemons as they perils on the standard two 6s. And you then push out cascading troops who choke the board. You only risk nearly dead units to push the Herald/Possession powers. If you only have 3 pink horrors left, who cares if you 12 dice possession? Perils, but the spell still goes off thus they are killed anyways and replaced with a Lord of Change.

Using that tree tactically in a daemons army still seems a crazy strong strategy. I want to see the more tournament level folks trying it over a few games to negate dice nonsense.

Edit, proposed list:

Spoiler:

++Daemon Farm++

-Fateweaver
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)

-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors

-9x Screamers

-Burning Chariot
-Burning Chariot
-Daemon Prince (Flight, Armor, Exalted Reward, Tz. Mark, ML3)

You can fiddle with the points and gak stuff around if you want more effective shooting, but the idea is to cascade the WC3 powers in the pink horrors. Per Bro-Hood of Psykers, they only lose a model if they peril, so after you get the Screamerstar buffs you need, just 6~8 dice the horrors. Unless they are absolutely mulching everything, you should be able to cause distress with your support units and/or shoot when necessary.

The list might need refinement to get some more units that can lock down the opposing army. That's really the screamerstars job; not to kill, but to gum up the opponents army and add as "shock and awe".

Whenever a "battery" of horrors gets low on guys, throw a big possession spell. Or hell, throw it early to get another LoC. Trading 90pts on the first turn for a 230pt FMC ain't bad and still nets you +1 warp charge dice. You have to play this list "balls to the walls". Yes, you could kill yourself, or you could absolutely swarm the enemy causing mass sadness. Remember, denying the summoning spells is just straight 6s, so once you get past a certain number of dice, the probability of denial starts dropping a great deal.

Yup. We have a Daemon player who already got us with this tonight.

It's broken. We couldn't beat him before, now he's unstoppable.

Puscifer wrote:

Spoiler:

++Daemon Farm++

-Fateweaver
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)

-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors

-9x Screamers

-Burning Chariot
-Burning Chariot
-Daemon Prince (Flight, Armor, Exalted Reward, Tz. Mark, ML3)

You can fiddle with the points and gak stuff around if you want more effective shooting, but the idea is to cascade the WC3 powers in the pink horrors. Per Bro-Hood of Psykers, they only lose a model if they peril, so after you get the Screamerstar buffs you need, just 6~8 dice the horrors. Unless they are absolutely mulching everything, you should be able to cause distress with your support units and/or shoot when necessary.

The list might need refinement to get some more units that can lock down the opposing army. That's really the screamerstars job; not to kill, but to gum up the opponents army and add as "shock and awe".

Whenever a "battery" of horrors gets low on guys, throw a big possession spell. Or hell, throw it early to get another LoC. Trading 90pts on the first turn for a 230pt FMC ain't bad and still nets you +1 warp charge dice. You have to play this list "balls to the walls". Yes, you could kill yourself, or you could absolutely swarm the enemy causing mass sadness. Remember, denying the summoning spells is just straight 6s, so once you get past a certain number of dice, the probability of denial starts dropping a great deal.

Yup. We have a Daemon player who already got us with this tonight.

It's broken. We couldn't beat him before, now he's unstoppable.

Could you elaborate? What was his list? How did he play it?

This interests me... for science...

Puscifer wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Good to hear about play testing. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Auswin wrote:

- Demonology was far too unreliable, even for demons or GK. Across the board lvl2 and 3 powers were too risky to get off without perils. One player built a list around the idea of summoning in mass demons and was tabled quickly by tyranids.

This doesn't sound right. It shouldn't be "scary" for daemons as they perils on the standard two 6s. And you then push out cascading troops who choke the board. You only risk nearly dead units to push the Herald/Possession powers. If you only have 3 pink horrors left, who cares if you 12 dice possession? Perils, but the spell still goes off thus they are killed anyways and replaced with a Lord of Change.

Using that tree tactically in a daemons army still seems a crazy strong strategy. I want to see the more tournament level folks trying it over a few games to negate dice nonsense.

Edit, proposed list:

Spoiler:

++Daemon Farm++

-Fateweaver
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML3, Disc)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)
-Tz. Herald (ML1)

-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors
-10x Pink Horrors

-9x Screamers

-Burning Chariot
-Burning Chariot
-Daemon Prince (Flight, Armor, Exalted Reward, Tz. Mark, ML3)

You can fiddle with the points and gak stuff around if you want more effective shooting, but the idea is to cascade the WC3 powers in the pink horrors. Per Bro-Hood of Psykers, they only lose a model if they peril, so after you get the Screamerstar buffs you need, just 6~8 dice the horrors. Unless they are absolutely mulching everything, you should be able to cause distress with your support units and/or shoot when necessary.

The list might need refinement to get some more units that can lock down the opposing army. That's really the screamerstars job; not to kill, but to gum up the opponents army and add as "shock and awe".

Whenever a "battery" of horrors gets low on guys, throw a big possession spell. Or hell, throw it early to get another LoC. Trading 90pts on the first turn for a 230pt FMC ain't bad and still nets you +1 warp charge dice. You have to play this list "balls to the walls". Yes, you could kill yourself, or you could absolutely swarm the enemy causing mass sadness. Remember, denying the summoning spells is just straight 6s, so once you get past a certain number of dice, the probability of denial starts dropping a great deal.

Yup. We have a Daemon player who already got us with this tonight.

It's broken. We couldn't beat him before, now he's unstoppable.

Ditto on that. My brother who is probably the most level headed person I know ( and a demon player) is completely wracking his brains right now at how bad it appears.


It's pretty funny and depressing as we've been playing this game since we where kids.
If they don't provide some sort of tournament focused rule set I'm genuinely saddened to say it may be time to pack it in. Completely contradicts my posts from a few days ago but you can only fight for so long- this is not the game I signed up to play 14 years ago.

That Daemon Farm list is fluffy, too. Mono-Tzeentch. Lots of spells.

Hilarious.

 TheKbob wrote:
That Daemon Farm list is fluffy, too. Mono-Tzeentch. Lots of spells.

Hilarious.

They sure did forge a narrative! Feel free to buy your GW Fine-stickers and award yourself D6 of them for good narrative forging.