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Hello once more people of the Tictacs subforum. I am going to pick up a couple of sets of the Chaos side of Dark Vengeance. This means I will own two Hellbrutes. The general consensus is that these ugly mofos are pretty bad but could they be used for anything? I was thinking of giving them Plasma cannons and have them be mobile fire bunkers. However, Forgefiends are probably better for it. Any advice is welcomed.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Helbrutes are good for 2 things:
1. Converting into daemon princes
2. Giving 70 cultists fearless and hatred (see Dataslate:Helbrutes-> Helcult formation)
Alright, that's not bad for my Word Bearer's theme. Is it best just keep the thing cheap?
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
With the dataslate they're not bad at all. Now that you can DS a pack of three, its like termicide on steroids.
3x Helbrute- MM, PFist with HF = 345 pts.
Not great by itself, but add an infiltrator, outflankers, or other DS threats and it adds a lot of hassle to bring down, and you threaten everything on the board.
Except for MC. But yep, they're not horrible. Even a standard helbrute out of a dataslate can be used as gun platform. I prefer Plazma cannon + Missile launcher. Probably Lazcannon + Missile launcher is better but that's the only way to take plazma cannon for CSM for some reason so...
Hellcults. I am running mine with multimelta / missile launcher behind 60 cultists. Quite a lot of points but very good scoring, with some fire support, and the 3+ cover makes them a less tempting target.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
koooaei wrote: Except for MC. But yep, they're not horrible. Even a standard helbrute out of a dataslate can be used as gun platform. I prefer Plazma cannon + Missile launcher. Probably Lazcannon + Missile launcher is better but that's the only way to take plazma cannon for CSM for some reason so...
When I need Plasma Cannons, I just bring out the Forgefiend.
I've tried the 3-Helbrute formation with DS. My opponent didn't like it! They're not a unit per se (just come together and share USR), so you can field them with different weapons to shoot at different targets.
Ailaros wrote: Wait, I just had a silly idea. What about the hellbrute as an MC-killer?
Think about it. Yes, a pred can throw out more dakka, having both a twin-linked lascannon AND a pair of extra lascannons, but that also costs more than the hellbrute (with the lascannon), and the moment that the MC even pretends to get into close combat, that predator is instantly toast. Meanwhile, the hellbrute isn't.
On the other side, for the same price you have the maulerfiend, and the maulerfiend does have the magma cutters, and it can get into close combat more quickly... but it HAS to get into close combat to do anything at all. Meanwhile, the hellbrute can blast things with its lascannon.
But that's not all, the maulerfiend is WS3, which means a lot of stuff out there hits it on 3's. That's bad because it only has I3, which means that it strikes after MCs, rather than concurrently. Meanwhile, the hellbrute gets to attack at I4, and stuff only hits it on 4's, unless you take a 10 point upgrade, in which case there's a one in three chance that they only hit the vehicle on 5's. The takeaway is that the hellbrute is going to put a wound or two on the MC, while the maulerfiend is likely going to get killed before he gets to attack.
So, let's take an example. A dreadknight against a pred will get shot at once, or maybe twice by the pred as the dreadknight shunts in and then blows it up. The dreadknight likely survives at half strength. A dreadknight against a maulerfiend will see 4 or 5 doomfists bash into the maulerfiend, possibly killing it, and, if it doesn't, the maulerfiend puts down a wound or two on the dreadknight and then is killed the next turn. You could give the maulerfiend lash whips, but then he looses free melta hits, and the result is still probably a dead maulerfiend before a dread dreadknight.
Then look at the hellbrute. He'll throw a wound off with his lascannon as the MC shunts forward. And he can charge into close combat, meaning he puts down another wound (thanks to hitting on 3's). The dreadknight has the same maybe kills it, maybe doesn't as the maulerfiend (if a little better), and then the next turn, it ends. If the flails manage to roll a 5 or 6 on two attempts, then the hellbrute wins because the dreadknight just can't connect.
Not, perhaps, the far and away best, but still better. Most importantly, though, it's not obviously weak anywhere. It's not going to fold to move+shooting like a maulerfiend, or to close combat like a predator. The same is true for offensive power as well. Against a riptide, it can sit back and shoot, while against a doom of malantai it can charge into close combat.
And I suppose that's why it's an elites choice then. There's that elusive flexibility. It doesn't get it in mobility, it gets it in killing power. It always has the option to fight in whatever way is most advantageous to it, rather then being pidgeonholed into a single way of doing things that your opponent can see coming and thus avoid or exploit.
I don't know if that makes it worth taking, but I think that's what they were trying to go for with this model.
So helbrutes work in all armored up walker CSM, which isnt super effective but can be surprising.
Rock up with a defiler, forgefiend, maulerfiend, 3 helbrukes, 2 helturkeys and some small CSM units in rhinos led by a warpsmith. 2 squads of cultists in reserve or hiding. Landraider if you can find the points.
The helbrukes protect the other walkers and vehicles from assault. The CSM in the rhinos protect all the walkers from hordes of grenade wielders.
It isn't very good, there are a ton of lists that will whip it easily, but there are some that just cant deal with that much armor.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Fearless as long as its alive and Zealot once it dies IIRC.
Either way you can give that Hellbrute a good 70 man Cultist shield while they all walk up the board. The cover save alone for the Hellbrute is worth it. 3+ and you just kill off a cultist if the shot can hurt your Brute. Otherwise, let the small arms fire come!
Throw in Necrosius from that FWIA and you can make them all zombies with FC
Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.
Ailaros wrote: Wait, I just had a silly idea. What about the hellbrute as an MC-killer?
Think about it. Yes, a pred can throw out more dakka, having both a twin-linked lascannon AND a pair of extra lascannons, but that also costs more than the hellbrute (with the lascannon), and the moment that the MC even pretends to get into close combat, that predator is instantly toast. Meanwhile, the hellbrute isn't.
On the other side, for the same price you have the maulerfiend, and the maulerfiend does have the magma cutters, and it can get into close combat more quickly... but it HAS to get into close combat to do anything at all. Meanwhile, the hellbrute can blast things with its lascannon.
But that's not all, the maulerfiend is WS3, which means a lot of stuff out there hits it on 3's. That's bad because it only has I3, which means that it strikes after MCs, rather than concurrently. Meanwhile, the hellbrute gets to attack at I4, and stuff only hits it on 4's, unless you take a 10 point upgrade, in which case there's a one in three chance that they only hit the vehicle on 5's. The takeaway is that the hellbrute is going to put a wound or two on the MC, while the maulerfiend is likely going to get killed before he gets to attack.
So, let's take an example. A dreadknight against a pred will get shot at once, or maybe twice by the pred as the dreadknight shunts in and then blows it up. The dreadknight likely survives at half strength. A dreadknight against a maulerfiend will see 4 or 5 doomfists bash into the maulerfiend, possibly killing it, and, if it doesn't, the maulerfiend puts down a wound or two on the dreadknight and then is killed the next turn. You could give the maulerfiend lash whips, but then he looses free melta hits, and the result is still probably a dead maulerfiend before a dread dreadknight.
Then look at the hellbrute. He'll throw a wound off with his lascannon as the MC shunts forward. And he can charge into close combat, meaning he puts down another wound (thanks to hitting on 3's). The dreadknight has the same maybe kills it, maybe doesn't as the maulerfiend (if a little better), and then the next turn, it ends. If the flails manage to roll a 5 or 6 on two attempts, then the hellbrute wins because the dreadknight just can't connect.
Not, perhaps, the far and away best, but still better. Most importantly, though, it's not obviously weak anywhere. It's not going to fold to move+shooting like a maulerfiend, or to close combat like a predator. The same is true for offensive power as well. Against a riptide, it can sit back and shoot, while against a doom of malantai it can charge into close combat.
And I suppose that's why it's an elites choice then. There's that elusive flexibility. It doesn't get it in mobility, it gets it in killing power. It always has the option to fight in whatever way is most advantageous to it, rather then being pidgeonholed into a single way of doing things that your opponent can see coming and thus avoid or exploit.
I don't know if that makes it worth taking, but I think that's what they were trying to go for with this model.
That is a bit of a silly idea. You made some big assumptions in there, not to mention the fact that sadly some how DK's are one of the worst MC's currently. Tau, eldar and every FMC laugh at hellbrutes or predators. You must have written that at least a year ago I am guessing. Maybe, just maybe I could see it back then, but now that is probably a poor use. Sadly chaos has some glaring issues against other MC's, there own the DP can die to a single smash.
I think the data slate is the best way to run them. Deep strike them in with MM and HF and use them like termicide. Or as other suggested, use them to anchor cultists so you don't need to waste an HQ slot on typhus for zombies or otherwise to make them fearless.
Red Corsai wrote:Tau, eldar and every FMC laugh at hellbrutes or predators.
Yes, most MCs laugh at TLLCs. FMC's find it particularly funny when a twin-linked weapon does a wound, forces a grounding test (and possibly another wound), and then gets run into in close combat by something with an Ap2 weapon that reduces their WS.
Tllc has ~33% chance to hit, there's a 33% chance the fmc crashes which means on average of 9 turns of shooting at it to ground it.
sure the brute is half the price but it doesn't stand a chance against most MC with any upgrades. Its best use is popping vehicles, people without krak grenades and piling into ongoing combats where only a limited number of enemy models will be able to direct attacks at it.
The dataslate helps by giving them DS or incentivising buying one by giving you other bonuses (hellcult)
Also remember that zealot includes fearless for free so loosing the brute actually makes the cultists better when they finally do hit combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 07:14:20
to be honest, 100 points isnt all that much and if it absorbs some fire I dont think you can go too far wrong. I would much rather have people shooting the hellbrutes than my helldrakes/fiends. The fearless and hatred on the cultists is also pretty cool. I have always been a fan of spamming dreadnoughts so 2 hellbrutes is right up my street.
Red Corsai wrote:Tau, eldar and every FMC laugh at hellbrutes or predators.
Yes, most MCs laugh at TLLCs. FMC's find it particularly funny when a twin-linked weapon does a wound, forces a grounding test (and possibly another wound), and then gets run into in close combat by something with an Ap2 weapon that reduces their WS.
Hilarious.
A few months back I shot 10 cultists auto pistols at a keeper of secrets with 4 wounds remaining and killed it. That doesn't make cultists my go to MC killer.
Suggesting a FMC is somehow going to be hit, wounded, grounded and fail any saves it should have AND somehow, despite superior mobility, concede its position to a slower as then feth HB and be assaulted with any reliability IS actually chuckle worthy.
Red Corsai wrote:Tau, eldar and every FMC laugh at hellbrutes or predators.
Yes, most MCs laugh at TLLCs. FMC's find it particularly funny when a twin-linked weapon does a wound, forces a grounding test (and possibly another wound), and then gets run into in close combat by something with an Ap2 weapon that reduces their WS.
Hilarious.
A few months back I shot 10 cultists auto pistols at a keeper of secrets with 4 wounds remaining and killed it. That doesn't make cultists my go to MC killer.
Suggesting a FMC is somehow going to be hit, wounded, grounded and fail any saves it should have AND somehow, despite superior mobility, concede its position to a slower as then feth HB and be assaulted with any reliability IS actually chuckle worthy.
I've been running the dataslates for chaos armor saturation with pretty good results. 3 DS formation brutes, 1 helcult formation, 2 defilers, a maulerfiend and the rest filled up with cultists and a warpsmith at 1500 pts is very difficult to bring down if you're not ready for it.
My meta is mostly MCs and flyers so people bring lots of str6/7 guns huddled in lines with a scattering of melta. 7 walkers, half with IWND and everything with a template of some kind, is a pain to take out and murders large swathes of bodies. The rest of the list is blobs of cheap scoring guys scattered across the map huddled behind terrain, so focusing them isn't much easier.
Granted once people play against it a few times and know what to expect there's a lot more anti-tank showing up in lists. But that just means the meta gets shaken up and people are forced to adapt, which is never a bad thing.
They could have real potentual, if they got some sort of Chaos Gift of some sort.
Otherwize they are just...So-So, but still fun to field in Non-Compentative Enviroments.
The best I ever did with one was My Chaos Sorcerer manage to get Fire Sheild and I kept puting it on him, that was a blast vs Nids.
cod3x wrote: With the dataslate they're not bad at all. Now that you can DS a pack of three, its like termicide on steroids.
3x Helbrute- MM, PFist with HF = 345 pts.
Not great by itself, but add an infiltrator, outflankers, or other DS threats and it adds a lot of hassle to bring down, and you threaten everything on the board.
Ok, i assume "dateslate" is something you have to have Ipad to get? If so that is one of the biggest things i hate about GW right now ... I like stuff in book form or what not (call me old). If this is the case how do i get or can i get dataslate for my brutes w/o an Ipad? Outside of that question i am really enjoying the thread a lot of intersting stuff at least for me on this topic .
You don't need an ipad. you can get it in Epub format. Then either get a browser epub reader plug in (firefox has one) or download an epub reader app to your smartphone.
Captyn_Bob wrote: You don't need an ipad. you can get it in Epub format. Then either get a browser epub reader plug in (firefox has one) or download an epub reader app to your smartphone.
So i can get a epub reader plug in thru firefox on my laptop? I dont have a good smart phone. Thanks for the info
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
12,000
14,000
11,000
Tons!
Tons!
2,000pts
.