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 herpguy wrote:
I find the lack of Be'Lakor in this thread disturbing. He is pretty much built to take down heavy hitters 1 on 1. He can just keep casting invisibility on himself and make even the avatar needing 5s to hit, and makes the very annoying chapter master highly unlikely to even touch him.

I find the problem with Be'lakor, is that his durability is low. Invisibility will help certainly (it will make most things hit him on 5's instead of 4's, being WS9, so a slight improvement), however with T5 and a 4++ save without outside help he will not be able to take damage very well. His damage output is quite good, but anything durable stands a good chance of wearing him down imo.

That's definitely a problem yes, but when you consider most of the top dogs presented here are taking wounds on their invul saves it's not that bad. Plus his weapon is master crafted and always wounds on 2s.
Invisibility makes your enemy WS1 so everybody would be hitting on 5s.
He may not be as durable as the annoying kitchen sink chapter master but he would beat him down in a challenge.
With invisibility up Be'Lakor could reliably stomp anything. Even without invisibility he can usually beat anybody (and he probably should when he costs 350 lol)

He may not be as durable as the annoying kitchen sink chapter master but he would beat him down in a challenge.

I'm not so sure it would be that clear cut though. Be'lakor will deal about 1 wound to the chaptermaster, after saves and FNP.
The chapter master would deal a little under half back to be'lakor.

Be'lakor shouldeventually come out on top, but it will take a few turns, especially if the chapter master regenerates a few wounds thanks to IWND, and there is a definite risk to the daemon, especially if invisibility fails.

How would Be'lakor do against the other forerunners?

Even the Swarmlord roflstomps Be'lakor, and she's dropped substantially in power.

Its either belakor or a GUO with mstry lvl 3 warp speed, iron arm, balesword, 2 greaters.

I think belakor is the strongest beatstick in the game by the numbers.

GUO with iron arm can be T9, 4+ FNP, 5+ Inuln, 3+ armor,(assuming greaters go that way), instant death. Pretty much destruction incarnate.

P.S belakor destroys the new swarmlord..

Does he have some sort of Instant Death I'm currently unaware of or is he capable of inflicting 10 wounds against a T6 model in a single round?

Be'Lakor EASILY kills the Swarmlord.

Also a GUO is T7 base so can be T10 with iron arm. T6 can't even touch it if it gets boosted that far. However, with random rolls and mastery level 9 I would never say iron arm is a given.

Also a GUO has instant. death from the balesword, which is a guaranteed greater reward.


Without factoring in random things (pretty much any Daemon GD who rolls amazing greater rewards and/or psychic powers could roflstomp the whole game) I have to say Be'Lakor would come out on top. The annoying SM chapter master would be the hardest to kill but would be slowly destroyed by Be'Lakor.

Ah, I see, Be'lakor has Eternal Warrior, so it would come to a battle of attrition, in which case Be'lakor would come out on top thanks to getting Invisibility 50% of the time and, I'm assuming, more attacks.

Statistically, a kitted Overlord/Phaeron will always win more than half the time.

Arjac rockfist all the way

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

I'm with you on a fully buffed DP of Tzeentch. But under normal circumstances I don't think he'd beat the top competition. He would need another model successfully using Grimoire on him, as well as rolling iron arm and successfully casting it. Along with this you've also got to help for good greater powers. But yeah, if all of this happens then he has a good chance. LD9 hurts vs MSS though.

I love the LoC, and it is great at a variety of roles, cc vs most things included. However, besides giving him a 4+ invulnerable save with divination, and then buffing him with grimoire to give him a 2++ re-rollable save, I don't think he would come beat out the top competition. His lack of a decent reliable save and no eternal warrior means he will be on the backfoot, and WS6, I6 are good, but not the best. I'd say he is a strong contender vs most targets, but I don't see him beating the likes of abbadon or Smashf***er.

Lord of Change; Misfortune, Forewarning, Precognition, Daemonic Resiliance (4+ FNP), Corpulence (+1W and ITWND) and Cleaving Blow (6's to hit are double Str)

So I believe OP said melee character (so no vector striking and avoiding combat). Cleaving strike is a fun extra, alternatively the lord of change can Smash, against smashfether, he has a 4++ rerollable followed by 4+ FNP coupled with 6W and ITWND, misfortune means he has good odds of landing a wound on (is smashfether the gorgon chain dude?) which gets successively worse the more wounds he takes, similarly the against the SM version he'll win the battle of attrition. He doesn't like anyone with instant-death (Balesword GUO or Daemon Prince) or Force Weapons (mainly Draigo) but against everyone else he's a pretty solid contender I believe (the inquistor is wounding on 4's so statistically requires 4 wounds to get through with the daemon hammer, assuming his toys dont work every turn, like psykout grenades, he returns to I6 and squishs said inquistor).

 herpguy wrote:
Be'Lakor EASILY kills the Swarmlord.

Also a GUO is T7 base so can be T10 with iron arm. T6 can't even touch it if it gets boosted that far. However, with random rolls and mastery level 9 I would never say iron arm is a given.

Also a GUO has instant. death from the balesword, which is a guaranteed greater reward.


Without factoring in random things (pretty much any Daemon GD who rolls amazing greater rewards and/or psychic powers could roflstomp the whole game) I have to say Be'Lakor would come out on top. The annoying SM chapter master would be the hardest to kill but would be slowly destroyed by Be'Lakor.

Yea I was just saying the ideal scenario for the GUO makes him like basically unbeatable in CC. Belakor will always be better though because wings. The space marines/not giant daemon units just dont compare in CC.

 CaptainJay wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Kain wrote:
No takers for my Daemon Prince/LoC?

I'm with you on a fully buffed DP of Tzeentch. But under normal circumstances I don't think he'd beat the top competition. He would need another model successfully using Grimoire on him, as well as rolling iron arm and successfully casting it. Along with this you've also got to help for good greater powers. But yeah, if all of this happens then he has a good chance. LD9 hurts vs MSS though.

I love the LoC, and it is great at a variety of roles, cc vs most things included. However, besides giving him a 4+ invulnerable save with divination, and then buffing him with grimoire to give him a 2++ re-rollable save, I don't think he would come beat out the top competition. His lack of a decent reliable save and no eternal warrior means he will be on the backfoot, and WS6, I6 are good, but not the best. I'd say he is a strong contender vs most targets, but I don't see him beating the likes of abbadon or Smashf***er.

Lord of Change; Misfortune, Forewarning, Precognition, Daemonic Resiliance (4+ FNP), Corpulence (+1W and ITWND) and Cleaving Blow (6's to hit are double Str)

So I believe OP said melee character (so no vector striking and avoiding combat). Cleaving strike is a fun extra, alternatively the lord of change can Smash, against smashfether, he has a 4++ rerollable followed by 4+ FNP coupled with 6W and ITWND, misfortune means he has good odds of landing a wound on (is smashfether the gorgon chain dude?) which gets successively worse the more wounds he takes, similarly the against the SM version he'll win the battle of attrition. He doesn't like anyone with instant-death (Balesword GUO or Daemon Prince) or Force Weapons (mainly Draigo) but against everyone else he's a pretty solid contender I believe (the inquistor is wounding on 4's so statistically requires 4 wounds to get through with the daemon hammer, assuming his toys dont work every turn, like psykout grenades, he returns to I6 and squishs said inquistor).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The one thing I would change however is the Cleaving blow.
Tzeentch daemons imo should take the staff of change instead. Gaining str 8 all the time for only 10 points is a great advantage. Very few targets are above T6, so you can wound most things on a 2+ without needing to Smash, considerably boosting your damage output vs tougher targets. It is also great for ID'ing T4 models, though I doubt there will be many such things in a thread such as thing.

Cleaving blow potentially gives you a str 10 hit, but if you need str 10 hits then you can always use smash instead.

I agree with the above. If you have extra points the staff of change is the best 10 point weapon you can buy. T8 is the magic threshold that lets you wound almost anything on 2+. Plus it is a guaranteed result.

a deamonhammer only needs one would to kill any Deamon with out EW instantly. Daemonbane plus being a force weapon gives it two ways to do it. and as long as in base contact -5 to IN.

Steel Angel wrote:
a deamonhammer only needs one would to kill any Deamon with out EW instantly. Daemonbane plus being a force weapon gives it two ways to do it. and as long as in base contact -5 to IN.

And? Inevitably there will be some individual counters to even the toughest Characters in 40k. This doesn't mean that daemons aren't in the running for "deadliest non-FW melee guy"

With this said however, Daemons often have very high initiative values. Nurgle Daemons will be in trouble, but most others will be striking either before or at the same time as an unwieldy weapon. A Daemonprince with his I9 would laugh off the pathetic initiative modifier and smear the inquisitor/Greyknight across the battlefield before he even has a change to be hit.

People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

 herpguy wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
People are relying to much on these Psy-Powers of theirs. Unless you are playing Loth or Be'Lakor, very few people are assured to get exactly the powers you need. Someone earlier said their character is the best because he has Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility. ANY character would be good with them, and the chances you will get exactly what you need for exactly the right game where you need it are slim. It's simply not fair to put your character over another due to the *chance* of getting the right power and the *chance* of passing the psy-test.

Well then, Eldrad beats your GUO. Oh yeah, He rolled Precognition, Prescience, Misfortune and Doom by the way.

Exactly, you can't factor random powers here.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's no forgeworld character in 40K that is better than the regular guys, or am I missing something?

The Primarchs bend over and violate just about any non-primarch characters without lube.

I think you should factor in random powers, but factor in the chance of them not having them when comparing units. If character A only beats character B when they have Iron Arm, but have a 67% chance of getting Iron Arm, that's a pretty good matchup, but if they need Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Invisibility and only have an 8% chance of getting all 3 that's a pretty bad matchup.

How about Angron, or one of the other primarchs from forgeworld?

 crashhead wrote:
How about Angron, or one of the other primarchs from forgeworld?

Lorgar Transfigured beats Angron upside the head fairly easily.

Invisibility is a bitch.

And a pre-updated Swarmlord beat most of them as well Re-rolling invuls was a bitch.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And a pre-updated Swarmlord beat most of them as well Re-rolling invuls was a bitch.

A near garauntee for good things on Telepathy or Biomancy if he focused on them was what really made him special.

Now outside of Houserulehammer I just use him to hold down papers.

Necron Lord with MSS.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Depends what you are talking about it going against in close combat. One on one? Termis? Large ap3 unit? Horde?
Against any ap3 or worse unit without a good invuln, the death co dread with talons on the charge is mathmatically going to kill more than anyone else. Give it prescience and it feels like cheating.
6 ws5 s7 attacks rerolling to hit and reolling to wound, no armour saves allowed, and any wounds inflicted gain another attack, ad infinitum. Usually 3+ to hit with reroll followed by a 2+ to wound with reroll. That is A LOT of kills.

I've had this happen to a mob of 30 Boyz on more than one occasion during 5th edition.

Hasn't happened in 6th once though.

See, the reason the scope of this thread is a problem, is that different units are good against different things. I would not send Be'Lakor against the Swarmlord. He'd most likely win, but SitW is going to make it a pain to get through. I wouldn't send a tooled up GUO or LoC against a blob of Khorne Berserkers - I'd send a Black Mace Prince to do it. Wouldn't send 50 Guardsmen against 20 Berserkers, I'd send the Iron Arm'd GUO at them and laugh as they are borderline incapable of hurting him.

I vote Doombreed

Because Doombreed

Kharn.

I also like a simple Daemon Prince with the Black Mace. People tend to think he's a pushover because he's a CSM Daemon Prince and not from Codex Daemons. My god though, those rolls of 6s for Toughness Tests... Scare EVERYTHING.

I've Removed Ghazz' from play multiple times just because of 1 bad roll of 6. Gotta love it. Course, I've also lost plenty of Daemon Princes to zoggy and his squig ability!