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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It seems to me some armies can generate a lot more warp charges than others. Or at least a lot more efficiently. For example a GK henchman psyker is 10 points. Put three of those guys in 3 separate squads and that is 3 warp charges generated each turn. With Coteaz the HQ that's two more for a total of 5 warp charges. Such an allied force could really buff the output of some other nasty psyker in the Imperium.

My knowledge of the game isn't that great. What other armies can generate a lot of warp charges efficiently? (Let's stick with bounded armies)
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Such a thing is going to be a necessity given the rumors of how powers are cast.

One psyker alone will not be able to cast powers reliably.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





You seem to have the entire new rulebook in front of you. Lucky you.

   
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Sneaky Lictor





Louisville, KY

Well, the WD articles pretty much outline the warp pool and how casting works. There might be a few points of interest that adjust this.. but a lot of what is required to generate powers and cast them is out there.


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Rampaging Carnifex





South Florida

One Psyker alone should have plenty of dice to cast at least one power a turn. There are diminishing returns the more Psykers you have, as they all won't be able to cast their own powers. However, they could be particularly useful as 'batteries' for your main casters. Ahriman and a couple units of Thousand Sons generating him some extra dice so he can get all his useful powers off.

It seems concentrating on one or two powerful Psykers will be more than enough. A ML2 Librarian will have a guaranteed 3 dice to cast with. That's basically a ~80% chance to get off one ML1 power. If the roll higher on the table, their odds goes up quite a bit.

   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob






As far as I can tell, Inquisitoral warbands are the only existing source of cheap warp charges. Every other faction pays 25 points per mastery level or more.

I guess you might as well throw one of them into any warband you take. Their psychic barrage isn't that bad, they help with denying the witch and they help buff up other psykers.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

It actually get's ridiculous with Portaglyph and being able to summon Pink Horrors.

Pink Horrors generate Warp Charges according to the number you have. If you have 6 squads of 17 , you would get 18 Warp Charges and they can apparently now summon Heralds.

Portaglyph let's you just gain a extra Warp Charge a turn with Pink Horrors.

Start Casting Summons for more Pink Horrors, etc.. etc..

Hoping that you roll Incursion or Sacrifice or Possession with the squad. Congrats the free squad of Pink Horrors you summoned that cost nothing, just got possesed by a Lord of Change who is in fact Level 2? I believe.

A Tzeentch army with 4 Lvl 3 Heralds, a Lord of Change LvL 2 and 4 to 6 squads of Pink Horrors at 17 models w/ have D6 + 27 Warp Charges, meanwhile you'll get 1D6 + how many psykers you have. In that situation the Tzeentch player actually wants to roll a 1.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/15 23:07:55


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

Hollismason wrote:
It actually get's ridiculous with Portaglyph and being able to summon Pink Horrors.

Pink Horrors generate Warp Charges according to the number you have. If you have 6 squads of 17 , you would get 18 Warp Charges and they can apparently now summon Heralds.

Portaglyph let's you just gain a extra Warp Charge a turn with Pink Horrors.

Start Casting Summons for more Pink Horrors, etc.. etc..

Hoping that you roll Incursion or Sacrifice or Possession with the squad. Congrats the free squad of Pink Horrors you summoned that cost nothing, just got possesed by a Lord of Change who is in fact Level 2? I believe.

A Tzeentch army with 4 Lvl 3 Heralds, a Lord of Change LvL 2 and 4 to 6 squads of Pink Horrors at 17 models w/ have D6 + 27 Warp Charges, meanwhile you'll get 1D6 + how many psykers you have. In that situation the Tzeentch player actually wants to roll a 1.


not sure yet whether daemons can summon more daemons. I could see a world where you couldnt. But you could take couple cheap lvl3 CSM sorcs and then a bunch of allied horros and do exactly what you are saying.

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Made in gb
Nasty Nob






Hollismason wrote:
Congrats the free squad of Pink Horrors you summoned that cost nothing...


Summoned forces aren't free. You need to invest points in psykers, then take the opportunity cost of not killing an enemy unit or saving one of your own units with your psychic powers to call in a (usually) fairly modest unit of daemons.

Six dice gets you a 66% chance of summoning 90 points of pink horrors. That's pretty much exactly 10 points per dice on average.

Those same six dice put into other powers could manifest three warp charge 1 powers on average. I bet you can get 20 points of utility from most WC 1 powers. A unit which would have caused 40 points of casualties can increase that by 50% with a simple blessing. A unit which would have taken 40 points of casualties can reduce that with another blessing. Even witchfire powers can probably rack up 20 points of casualties against the right targets.

   
Made in nz
Sinister Chaos Marine





Summoning will have an opportunity cost. Casting buffs might save 90 points of your force. Casting witchfires might kill 90 points of enemies.

Also who can roll 6 dice? Isn't it gonna be ML +1 for max number of dice you can roll?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

No its not, otherwise you basically could never cast warp charge 3 powers(most people would only get 3 dice)

Warp charge has built in limitations, if someone spends a lot of points on powers they are investing a lot in people that aren't going to do anything more than sit there and provide dice.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

A Full army of Tzeentch can absolutely dominate the psychic phase and board through summoning.

People really seem unclear on how things work even though it's been stated and verified.

You at the beginning of your psychic phase gain a number of Warp Charges equal to the Mastery Level of Psykers in your Army.

Pink Horrors generate 3 Warp Charge per 16 or more model unit.

Pink Horrors can in fact summon Heralds, they may choose to roll on Tzeetch OR Pick Daemonlogy , get the Free Primarus of Summoning which is 3 Warp Charges. They may also then roll on a chart that gives them access to getting Sacrifice, Incursion or Possession. They literally say this in White Dwarf.

You don't have to spend Anything , other than the initial points of a Pink Horror squad or the cost of what ever you have that has Sacrifice because Guess what Heralds can in fact be summoned with 30 points of options which allows them to take a Portaglyh or you can purchase it.

Summoning is exponential the more you summon the more you get to summon.

If you start with 4 Heralds @ Master Level 3 and 4 Squads of Pink Horrors you will have D6 + 24 Warp Dice during your Psychic Phase and a Portaglyph that works would bring that to 26. So average it to 29.

You also automatically get Summoning, then you get to roll 3 times for each Herald in order to get m
ore summoning ability.

If you wish you can attempt to summon more Daemons. If you suffer a perils on the warp chart it only affects 1 model of the Horror Squad. They literally state this in the White Dwarf. They're the best at summoning as they suffer no negative side effects.

Your opponent can in fact Dispel but if you roll low like a 2 and he has no Psykers, good luck to him.

Even if you are successful with getting 4 squads on your second turn and you lose 2 full squads due to shooting or whatever which may be difficult as you can grimoire now and cast Cursed Earth if you get it to get +1 to a daemonic roll.

You are still on the second turns psychic phase getting 4 more additional points.

That's not counting the fact that Daemons can in fact summon heralds with Sacrifice who can be Level 2.

Who cares if they sit there when you can hopefully get a 16% Chance to get Possession or Incursion. You get to roll for those abilities each time you summon another squad.

Just that initial 4 and 4 get 16 Rolls to get Possession or Incursion or Sacrifice which in turn get's to try and get Incursion or Possession or Sacrifice plus adds to your Warp Pool.

A Pure Tzeetch army will absolutely dominate the psychic phase plus be able to summon more daemons or possibly turn into Lords of Change. Who cares if my initial Pink Horror Squads do nothing , when they can summon Heralds and more Pink Horrors or Plague Bearers.

You get to choose what you summon. Incursion allows you to get Bloodcrushers and Screamers, who are in fact Levle 1 Psykers I believe.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/16 03:58:54


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

im willing to bet theres a lot of the rules involving the new psyker phase and warp charges they didnt say yet. As it is i get the impression psykers are potentially insanely broken, but i cant help but feel like im missing a lot of information to say that. Considering many armies dont have psykers at all, and some dont have psykers worth mentioning (weirdboyz....though that COULD change soon-ish) it could cause some pretty crazy balance issues.
Summoning in particular is why i feel like it potentially makes psyker armies broken as hell. I am severely hoping im missing some key information for non-psyker spamming armies.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

The only thing I can think of that would prevent it is if there is a rule that you can only use a Psychic power once per phase regardless of how many Copies of that spell you possess. Otherwise it works as stated with Daemons Summoning Daemons who summon Daemons.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology

Yes, yes, yes YES YES!! So excited! Ahriman, 2 TS squads, a sorcerer, a herald, and 2 squads of pink horrors, oh THE MAGIC WILL BE MAGNIFICENT.

Does this mean sorcerers can give their charges to someone else to use? Casting three two warp charge witchfires a turn would be super cool.

"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Cheyenne WY

Super Newb wrote:
It seems to me some armies can generate a lot more warp charges than others. Or at least a lot more efficiently. For example a GK henchman psyker is 10 points. Put three of those guys in 3 separate squads and that is 3 warp charges generated each turn. With Coteaz the HQ that's two more for a total of 5 warp charges. Such an allied force could really buff the output of some other nasty psyker in the Imperium.

My knowledge of the game isn't that great. What other armies can generate a lot of warp charges efficiently? (Let's stick with bounded armies)


Tyranids...finally something we can do well

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Hollismason wrote:
A Full army of Tzeentch can absolutely dominate the psychic phase and board through summoning.

People really seem unclear on how things work even though it's been stated and verified.

You at the beginning of your psychic phase gain a number of Warp Charges equal to the Mastery Level of Psykers in your Army.

Pink Horrors generate 3 Warp Charge per 16 or more model unit.

Pink Horrors can in fact summon Heralds, they may choose to roll on Tzeetch OR Pick Daemonlogy , get the Free Primarus of Summoning which is 3 Warp Charges. They may also then roll on a chart that gives them access to getting Sacrifice, Incursion or Possession. They literally say this in White Dwarf.

You don't have to spend Anything , other than the initial points of a Pink Horror squad or the cost of what ever you have that has Sacrifice because Guess what Heralds can in fact be summoned with 30 points of options which allows them to take a Portaglyh or you can purchase it.

Summoning is exponential the more you summon the more you get to summon.

If you start with 4 Heralds @ Master Level 3 and 4 Squads of Pink Horrors you will have D6 + 24 Warp Dice during your Psychic Phase and a Portaglyph that works would bring that to 26. So average it to 29.

You also automatically get Summoning, then you get to roll 3 times for each Herald in order to get m
ore summoning ability.

If you wish you can attempt to summon more Daemons. If you suffer a perils on the warp chart it only affects 1 model of the Horror Squad. They literally state this in the White Dwarf. They're the best at summoning as they suffer no negative side effects.

Your opponent can in fact Dispel but if you roll low like a 2 and he has no Psykers, good luck to him.

Even if you are successful with getting 4 squads on your second turn and you lose 2 full squads due to shooting or whatever which may be difficult as you can grimoire now and cast Cursed Earth if you get it to get +1 to a daemonic roll.

You are still on the second turns psychic phase getting 4 more additional points.

That's not counting the fact that Daemons can in fact summon heralds with Sacrifice who can be Level 2.

Who cares if they sit there when you can hopefully get a 16% Chance to get Possession or Incursion. You get to roll for those abilities each time you summon another squad.

Just that initial 4 and 4 get 16 Rolls to get Possession or Incursion or Sacrifice which in turn get's to try and get Incursion or Possession or Sacrifice plus adds to your Warp Pool.

A Pure Tzeetch army will absolutely dominate the psychic phase plus be able to summon more daemons or possibly turn into Lords of Change. Who cares if my initial Pink Horror Squads do nothing , when they can summon Heralds and more Pink Horrors or Plague Bearers.

You get to choose what you summon. Incursion allows you to get Bloodcrushers and Screamers, who are in fact Levle 1 Psykers I believe.


To cast any of those powers with a decent chance requires 6 or more dice. So we are looking at 7-8 dice per cast. So you might get three casts per turn they will probably stop one, so two successful casts.

How many points is that army you described? What does it actually have for offense other than spawning units that cant score. You are giving up flickering fire to get those abilitys and there is I think one offensive spell in the entire tree? You are basically building an army that fills the board but doesn't really do much of anything.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Made in gb
Nasty Nob






Hollismason wrote:
You don't have to spend Anything , other than the initial points of a Pink Horror squad or the cost of what ever you have that has Sacrifice...

So, in fact, they do actually have a cost. Sixteen pink horrors is 144 points.

Putting their dice and all your initial dice into Summoning, you have about a 70% chance of getting a unit of 10 lesser daemons out of them each turn.

That's about sixty points a turn out of your investment. Not too shabby.

Taking another two units of 16 horrors only gets you enough extra dice to do that same trick once more. Now you've doubled the cost of your extra units. That's a bit rubbish. Investing in psykers has diminishing returns. An army of just summoning psykers will have it's units killed by a shooty army faster than they can summon them. The first summoning every turn is probably worth it, but the next isn't.

Now, you can take the 'free' points you got from summoning and re-invest them in more daemons capable of summoning. But when you do that, you are wasting the opportunity to get a daemon unit capable of killing the enemy effectively. That's an opportunity cost.

The most efficient way to get more summoning power is Heralds of Tzeentch, but you are going to be rather limited in the number you can summon because not every psyker will know Sacrifice. A couple of summoned HoTs can reliably knock out another HoT each turn. In theory, that's pretty good; you are increasing your summoning power by 50% a turn. In practice, you are investing in units which have only a couple of turns to justify their existence before the game is effectively over. Doing the summoning thing more than a couple of times is not going to help. You need to be investing your warp charges in something which will actually bring you closer to beating the enemy by turn 3 or 4 at the latest.

So in the end you get a couple of extra useful units out of one small investment. That's still pretty good.

The big question is, is it really such a small investment? It's not many points but, as we've seen, psykers are only really efficient in small numbers. So the first few psykers you buy have a hidden cost. You only have the opportunity to get really points-efficient psykers once. Which means that in order to take the opportunity to get an efficient summoning force, you have to give up the opportunity to get a different kind of useful psyker build. Could a couple of low-level psykers with Divination or Telepathy end up achieving more? I think it's possible.

We don't quite have all the information yet, but I think that Malefic Daemonology in the hands of Daemons is on a par with the better disciplines for other factions we have at the moment. I'd say it's slightly better than (the current version of) Divination for Tzeentch daemons simply because Divination mostly buffs shooting and daemon shooting (even for Tzeentch) is fairly unimpressive.

   
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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

It's fairly unimpressive until you turn half your army into Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change or just straight up start summoning Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, etc..

You don't have to do this every single turn and it's not a huge point investment especially when you are gaining points every turn. That can in turn bring in more points.

Again, with 4 and 4 units having access Demonology, 4 of which could just be level 2, and 4 Level 1s, you would still be rolling on the chart 12 times, of those rolls 16% of the time for each of those rolls could be Possession , but Incursions honestly better.

You also auto get Summoning.

Your not required to just keep summoning Pink Horrors.

Now add into that your Lord of Change who while not exactly a combat beast does have the possibility to be "unkillable".

How? Possession. You shoot my Lord of Change and it gets down to 1 wound. Okay I cast a spell that has a chance to replace my Lord of Change with a Lord of Change. Now they may not be the best combat monster in the game but a base Lord of Change not purchasing anything rolls twice on the chart or you can add a level and insure it.

Everytime you summon a Herald? It gives you 30 points of options. That's a Level 1 Warp Charge power to gain 2 Warp Charges on your next phase and a additional chance to gain the ability to upgrade him to a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster etc..

Again, Tzeetch can dominate the Psychic Phase.

Also that's 900 points, for 4 Squads and 4 Heralds. That's it you still have plenty of points to threaten the enemy with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/16 05:47:43


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






All them calculations on how tzeetch dominate the psyker phase seem to forget that:

A-you need about 6 dice to get a good chance of a level 3 power (all summoning powers)

B-If you spend on your power on summoning, the horrors and heralds can't even shoot, their shooting is all witchfires.

C-the "infinite lord of chance", while a technical possibility, is far from an assured roll, you need 3 SUCCESSFUL dice to get it done, meaning 6 dice for a 50% chance. and if you use only his 3, its a 1/216 chance, in while you cast nothing else.


End conclusion-pure teezench army WILL be the best army for summoning in the game, but non-stop summoning is not that effiecent, as the good summoners wont get anything DONE except summon stuff if you go on summoner cycling, and if you summons actual kill units, then you don't do much different then taking said kill units to begin with, as you need MASSIVE investment into summoners to get a fair chance to summon.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought






Sacrafice looks like the best power because it's lvl1 and summons a lvl2 herald o tzeentch.

Conjured units don't score in 6th ed.

Everyone assumes shadow of the warp will be useless. RAW without a FAQ or new USR it's -3 on every roll making psychic powers impossible to cast because none of the dice can roll a 4+ on d6-3. I'm sure shadow of the warp and siren song will do something, it just has not been leaked yet. The new psychic powers are so difficult to cast a -1 to casting or +1 to dispell would make casting very difficult.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Sacrifice yes, is rather absurd with T heralds.
Hopefully there is something we have yet to see to make it reasonable, or the lvl 1 is not real (its hard to read, some say they see a 3, and every other summon is 3)

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Nasty Nob






 schadenfreude wrote:
Everyone assumes shadow of the warp will be useless. RAW without a FAQ or new USR it's -3 on every roll making psychic powers impossible to cast because none of the dice can roll a 4+ on d6-3.

I'm pretty sure it's actually -3 Ld for psykers, not -3 on psychic tests.

   
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Yes it is, but it will probably get changed, like all rules currently dealing with psykers.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought






 Perfect Organism wrote:
 schadenfreude wrote:
Everyone assumes shadow of the warp will be useless. RAW without a FAQ or new USR it's -3 on every roll making psychic powers impossible to cast because none of the dice can roll a 4+ on d6-3.

I'm pretty sure it's actually -3 Ld for psykers, not -3 on psychic tests.


Ooops yea you're right.

That might actually be good as is if one of the perils results is make a ld test on 3d6 failure=sucked into the warp and removed from play


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The big factor we don't know about 7e yet is what that d6 perils table will be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/16 09:02:58


Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Nasty Nob






 BoomWolf wrote:
Sacrifice yes, is rather absurd with T heralds.
Hopefully there is something we have yet to see to make it reasonable, or the lvl 1 is not real (its hard to read, some say they see a 3, and every other summon is 3)

It's been confirmed by people who have the WD that it is WC 1, I'm afraid.

However, it seems that DtW may be pretty easy against level 1 powers, if it works as rumored. Five dice rolling for 5+ have got a 87% chance of getting at least one success. So one 'broken' power has little chance of breaking the game.

I'm still not convinced that heralds spawning heralds is going to actually work. There just aren't enough turns to build up a critical mass of them. Only about a third of the new heralds will know sacrifice, so if you can spawn three heralds in turn one, you can do four in turn two, five in turn three, six in turn four, and then when you finally cash them in for summoning, they translate to enough warp charges for maybe three extra summonings plus enough extra dice for a couple more summonings over the course of the battle. Or you could have just concentrated on summoning stuff from turn 1 with the eight or so dice you need to reliably get three sacrifices. That gives you four extra summonings over the same time frame. The herald spam could be useful for shutting down enemy psykers, but for actually getting most jobs done, I think it's better to call in some plague drones sooner rather than later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/16 09:08:27


   
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Daemonic Dreadnought






Herald spam will only be OP if corrupted earth stacks with it's self. If that happens the new and old heralds will just be stacking +1 to all deamonic invos left and right until the entire tzeentch army has a 2++ reroll 1s.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Nasty Nob






 schadenfreude wrote:
Herald spam will only be OP if corrupted earth stacks with it's self. If that happens the new and old heralds will just be stacking +1 to all deamonic invos left and right until the entire tzeentch army has a 2++ reroll 1s.

Pretty sure one of the stills from the latest video confirmed that psychic powers can't stack with duplicates of the same power, only with different ones.

   
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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

That's true it doesn't stack it specifically says that it doesn't.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






I think it says so in the generic psyker power rules that unless stated otherwise, a power cannot stack with itself.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
 
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