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So, I have just received (I was going to buy it, but I'm not about to complain) the Cadian Defense Force set. It comes with a Leman Russ tank. Unfortunately, it is the set that doesn't come with the Punisher or Executioner bits that I've come to love lately (With Pask, 20 S5 rending shots with Preferred Enemy AND rerolling armor pen?), but I would like to build whichever of the 4 variants I am more likely to use. I'm mainly thinking either the Battle Tank (bare bones 150 point version, or pimp out the sponsons?) and the Vanquisher (I'd probably go hull lascannon and multimelta sponson). I may toy with the Eradicator, but it probably won't be used all that frequently. Don't even talk about the Exterminator, m'kay?

So, for all you Dakkanauts to best assist me, I will list my models as they are built in case that might influence the LR variant I should use:

I will most likely do counts-as to experiment anyways, but I'd like to try to build either the most aesthetically pleasing tank or the most commonly used one, so I hope you guys can help me with my dilemma.

P.S. Yes, I have glued my models, not magnetized, and will probably do so for a good while longer.

With that kit you can use both the Vanquisher and the LRBT. Just don't glue the tip in so you can switch them out.

I prefer the standard issue LRBT, solid 6' range, large s8 blast. Its a good workhorse, it can sit in back and blast away or get in the mix. A flexible variant to be sure.

 alarmingrick wrote:
With that kit you can use both the Vanquisher and the LRBT. Just don't glue the tip in so you can switch them out.

Is there any way to do this with hull/sponson weapons?

Yep, If you put the magnets on the inside of the side tracks you can make it so you can magnetize the sponsons in, then you can magnetize the sponsons so you can decide which weapons go in if at all.

 Leth wrote:
Yep, If you put the magnets on the inside of the side tracks you can make it so you can magnetize the sponsons in, then you can magnetize the sponsons so you can decide which weapons go in if at all.

As Leth has mentioned would be one way to do it. I personally haven't had much luck with my end results. YMMV.

You shouldn't need magnets for hull weapons. They come with those nice little mounting slots that you can just stick the weapons into.

Anyways, if you want to run a punisher, I'd go get a punisher cannon bit, or spend some time scratchbuilding. If you're stuck on just the basic choices, then I'd definitely take the vanquisher, as, unlike the regular russ, you can still use sponsons, and, unlike the eradicator, is good against hard targets rather than just light infantry hiding in cover. That just leaves the uber-lascannon or the uber-autocannon, and lascannons are better than autocannons, including here. I can see the exterminator or eradicator if you know you need something to fill those niches they're good against, but the vanquisher is the better all-arounder, being the best option of those four against MCs, TEq, and most vehicles.

Of course, there are ways of making the turret weapon swappable, with or without magnets. I used a bit of knifework and some plastic tubing and it works great for not being that difficult of a conversion. That way, if you ever do get an executioner or punisher turret, it will be really easy to add it to the mix and plug it in at will.

 Ailaros wrote:
Anyways, if you want to run a punisher, I'd go get a punisher cannon bit, or spend some time scratchbuilding.

Buy it on ebay or spend 30 cents and get a bunch of straws, look up a guide, and with minimal or no scratchbuilding skills, you got yourself a punisher.

Seriously, don't limit yourself.

Well, thanks for all of the feedback everybody. It sounds like I'll actually be able to make the turrets and even the hull weapons swappable without too many shenanigans. Thank you Ailaros for that link, too. Who needs barrels to be able to aim up and down 10 degrees when you can instead make them interchangeable?

This leaves one smaller remaining issue: how could I be able to make the entire sponsons removable? Switching the weapons themselves shouldn't be hard, but to be able to fully take them off when I want a discount Russ sounds a little more challenging to this newbie of the world of scratchbuilding.

I still don't get this whole "autocannons are bad" business. I love autocannons. Idk wtf these haters are on about. The exterminator is a great Russ variant that can be effective against a lot of different targets depending on hull and sponson weapons.

Ryan_A 595470 wrote:Buy it on ebay or spend 30 cents and get a bunch of straws, look up a guide, and with minimal or no scratchbuilding skills, you got yourself a punisher.

Or your local hardware store will sell cheap aluminum and brass tubing of the correct size.

I haven't done it myself, but I can imagine that it's got to be a pretty easy conversion to make a punisher cannon in one of several ways.

ultimentra wrote:Idk wtf these haters are on about.

Math.

KommissarKiln wrote:This leaves one smaller remaining issue: how could I be able to make the entire sponsons removable?

You can't, unfortunately. At least, not in any way that even approximates easily.

I wanted to have this setup as well to make them fully convertible, but the problem lies in the model. Either its a design issue or a problem with the mould, but the sponson shields don't fit onto the side of the tank properly. With glue, you can kind of bend and anchor it in place, and you don't notice the defect, but without glue the warped nature of the shield means that you're going to have big gaps between the side of the tank and the shield.

The only way I could think it possible would be to remove the side of the russ in a shield-shaped pattern in the right place, add a plasticard box to the sponson, and then you'd be able to plug a square peg into a square hole. Save the side of the tank and glue it to its own box, and then you'd be able to slide that armor panel in when you needed it. Getting the seam to look nice without the sponson, though, would take a lot of work.

In any case, sponsons are criminally cheap, so you're going to want to basically always be taking them anyways. The only times you wouldn't are in the case of ordnance russes, but those are by far the worst russes, especially since you can't use sponsons correctly with them. I'd just build with sponsons, and if you ever come across a time where you might want to run a sponsonless tank, just buy another russ (or, you know, just don't plug any weapons into the sponson mounts).

The sponsons can be magnetized. With one one the inside of the side armor and it's mate on the sponson. It can be done but needs strong magnets

ultimentra wrote:I still don't get this whole "autocannons are bad" business. I love autocannons. Idk wtf these haters are on about. The exterminator is a great Russ variant that can be effective against a lot of different targets depending on hull and sponson weapons.

Actually, I do love using autocannons. I regularly field a pair of (proxy) hydras, have used autocannons with my heavy weapons teams and used the autocannon bit on my sentinel. But an autocannon as the primary weapon of a 130 point tank? The other options just give so much more for their relative costs. Pie plates, an incredible amount of dakka or a dead vehicle per turn are all just more practical for their particular roles.

Ailaros wrote:

KommissarKiln wrote:This leaves one smaller remaining issue: how could I be able to make the entire sponsons removable?

You can't, unfortunately. At least, not in any way that even approximates easily.

I wanted to have this setup as well to make them fully convertible, but the problem lies in the model. Either its a design issue or a problem with the mould, but the sponson shields don't fit onto the side of the tank properly. With glue, you can kind of bend and anchor it in place, and you don't notice the defect, but without glue the warped nature of the shield means that you're going to have big gaps between the side of the tank and the shield.

The only way I could think it possible would be to remove the side of the russ in a shield-shaped pattern in the right place, add a plasticard box to the sponson, and then you'd be able to plug a square peg into a square hole. Save the side of the tank and glue it to its own box, and then you'd be able to slide that armor panel in when you needed it. Getting the seam to look nice without the sponson, though, would take a lot of work.

In any case, sponsons are criminally cheap, so you're going to want to basically always be taking them anyways. The only times you wouldn't are in the case of ordnance russes, but those are by far the worst russes, especially since you can't use sponsons correctly with them. I'd just build with sponsons, and if you ever come across a time where you might want to run a sponsonless tank, just buy another russ (or, you know, just don't plug any weapons into the sponson mounts).

Heh, that actually seems like the best way to go about it. Build them big boxers onto the sides of the tanks, but just pop the actual weapons out to show that there's nothing there. That should probably suffice for all but the seediest of players who'd argue about LOS.

Autocannons aren't fondly regarded because they're in a strange place. S7, as an odd numbered strength value isn't remarkably better than S6, AP4 prevents them from being especially damaging to heavier infantry, while heavy 2 isn't that much dakka in the amounts of it most units can muster. Lootas break the mold by having an unholy metric buttload of S7 for a cheap price. But the Leman Russ exterminator? Four TL'd shots for 130 points? You can do better than that for your tanks. Annihilation barges and Night Scythes have the advantage of being bargain bin cheap, surprisingly durable, and getting much more hits than their profile suggests they should. Wave serpents I trust you're already familiar with as to the reasons why they're liked. Missilesides again have an absurd amount of dakka on tough platforms with a small footprint (also skyfire/interceptor/ignores night fighting/can ignore cover/get improved BS/#TheGreaterGoodSneersAtYourFliers)

Maybe if the guard could take hull and sponson mounted autocannons for their leman russes you could get enough weight of Autocannon fire for it to be a particularly great idea. But otherwise, you have better options. Against fire warriors, dire avengers, scions, or Necron warriors; the Eradicator will do the job better as it also ignores cover, and the Punisher also functions quite well (though getting within 24 inches of a 20 man necron warrior brick with a reslord and Ghost Ark may end badly for your tank). Against vehicles, you're better served with the reliable Vanquisher+Lascannon or lascannon blobs, or perhaps Lascannon Sentinels or the still fearsome Vendetta (or bastion breacher Medusas if your opponent isn't a git). Against infantry hordes, the Eradicator and punisher are more optimal.

But it's a generalist tank you say? Leman Russes are dirt cheap for AV14 vehicles with that much firepower, and you're not exactly short on slots to spend for them (not to mention you can have three to a slot), you can afford to specialize. Three eradicators to break Xenos and Guard infantry blocks costs a measely 360 points, hellhounds are in the same price range, Wyverns and Griffons are very affordable, and a Valkyrie pimped out for Infantry slaughter is easy to stuff into any list. Three lascannon armored sentinels is a mere 150 points, a Vendetta brings you flying triple TL'd lascannons for only 170 points. A guard lascannon blob is easily affordable and can have tank hunters.. These are incredible bargains.

Unless you're facing against a bunch of fire warriors with devilfish or scions with Tauroxes, there's not too much call for an Exterminator.

I feel that ever since the Ordnance weapon on the LRBT made all other weapons snap shoot the Exterminator becomes a much better option because not only is it an AV14 caddy for whatever sponson and hull weapons you want, but you will pretty much get guaranteed autocannon hits on target, which can do a number on light vehicles and infantry alike.

Not only that, the battle cannon is one shot, if you're hitting a vehicle or MC that one shot can not only scatter, but thats one wound or one potential hull point, and blowing up vehicles just got harder with the new edition without AP2 or 1. This makes the Exterminator an appealing option because not only is it cheaper than the LRBT, or the same price with a lascannon, but it WILL be better against armor in the coming edition by helping to whittle down hull points of vehicles. You aren't going for an explodes result with these, you're putting hull points on enemy armor.


The LRBT ever since Lumbering Behemoth disappeared has been the WORST variant, and it will remain that way. What you say about the other variants such as the Eradicator being better against infantry is true, but you cannot discount the utility of the Exterminator as a swiss army knife tank that can do much better damage to just about anything than the LRBT can. Versatility is especially important in lower point games such as those between 1000-1500.

Executioner has the same S7 but with AP2. Much better against MCs, eh?

 TheSilo wrote:
Executioner has the same S7 but with AP2. Much better against MCs, eh?

That's the one that overheats and kills itself right?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Executioner has the same S7 but with AP2. Much better against MCs, eh?

That's the one that overheats and kills itself right?

-Matt

Exactly, not only that but the Executioner is more expensive so you have to take that into account. If you aren't taking Pask as your warlord, the only other option you have for rerolling those one's on the plasma cannons is trying to cast prescience on the tank or its squadron, which will be harder to do in 7th edition.

I would be much more open to the argument of the Executioner being a superior choice if it weren't for the fact that it looks like getting prescience off on the tank is about to get that much more difficult very soon thanks to the new psychic phase mechanics. Including it in a pask squadron, or even taking pask on the Executioner its self is a rather expensive investment, one I wouldn't be willing to dedicate points to below 1850 points.

I'm not crazy about the executioner myself, I've never actually run one or an exterminator. But if you want those MCs dead, you probably want armor piercing. Personally, I prefer demolishers to insta kill their retinue, and then mass fire whatever's left.

Just seems like an eradicator can put out just as much fire power for fewer points.

Honestly my prejudice against the executioner probably stems from 3rd when it was the most expensive $$$ tank, with a pewter turret, and only one twin linked AC.

Oh come on, the executioner is nearly 50 points cheaper than it used to be.

The plasma tank is no different than plasma guns. Yeah, they kill themselves, but the stupid huge amount of damage they can put out in the meantime makes them worth it. Less than 200 points, and you can blow away a full-health riptide in two turns. You get what you pay for, including the price of self-inflicted hull point loss.

Add in either prescience of pask prefered enemy and you are not even likely to lose 1 hull point all game.

Punisher is awesome sauce.

If the interaction between ordnance and heavy changes, removing the snap fire restriction, how will the LRBT and Demolisher fare? I don't think that the standard Russ will be worth 170-180 points for what you get, although part of me really wants LC/MM Demolishers with dozers. The expense of these variants still seems prohibitive, even with a tweak to the ordnance rule.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh come on, the executioner is nearly 50 points cheaper than it used to be.
The plasma tank is no different than plasma guns. Yeah, they kill themselves, but the stupid huge amount of damage they can put out in the meantime makes them worth it. Less than 200 points, and you can blow away a full-health riptide in two turns. You get what you pay for, including the price of self-inflicted hull point loss.

The tank gets an armor save against the over-heat? Because adding in pask or a psyker isn't cheap or free. You do get what you pay for, and IMO you need to be taking advantage of the Blast, not just the S7 for the executioners to be worth it.
How are you killing a riptide in 2 turns? You get 5 shots right? Wounding on 3+, and the Riptide has an invul save and is likely to have drones with invul saves as well.
Even if all the shots hit with none of them over-heating, you're rolling above average to get 5 past the toughness and invul save.


-Matt

 Trickstick wrote:
If the interaction between ordnance and heavy changes, removing the snap fire restriction, how will the LRBT and Demolisher fare? I don't think that the standard Russ will be worth 170-180 points for what you get, although part of me really wants LC/MM Demolishers with dozers. The expense of these variants still seems prohibitive, even with a tweak to the ordnance rule.

The LRD will always be the Duke Nukem and Samus Aran approved option, no matter how uncompetitive it is. Because it is awesomeness distilled into tank form.

HawaiiMatt wrote:The tank gets an armor save against the over-heat?

Yup, a 4+.

HawaiiMatt wrote:How are you killing a riptide in 2 turns? You get 5 shots right? -Matt

Six. 5 plasma cannon shots and a lascannon. Normally small blast is a liability, but here, against a model on a base as big as a riptide, it's going to be hard to miss completely.

Yeah, you'll have to be a little lucky to do it in two, but it's certainly doable. If your opponent does load up on a bunch of drones, that will also make things a bit more difficult, but now the riptide becomes more expensive (so I can at least take a stubber and HK to sweep away some drones).

Still, though, in a straight fight between the two, the executioner will easily win, and you won't have to wait until the game is over before you do it. And of course, you can always pay more to add prescience which makes the executioner more expensive by a fair bit over a naked riptide, but will also stand a decent chance of one-shotting it in a single volley...

 Ailaros wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:The tank gets an armor save against the over-heat?

Yup, a 4+.

HawaiiMatt wrote:How are you killing a riptide in 2 turns? You get 5 shots right? -Matt

Six. 5 plasma cannon shots and a lascannon. Normally small blast is a liability, but here, against a model on a base as big as a riptide, it's going to be hard to miss completely.

Yeah, you'll have to be a little lucky to do it in two, but it's certainly doable. If your opponent does load up on a bunch of drones, that will also make things a bit more difficult, but now the riptide becomes more expensive (so I can at least take a stubber and HK to sweep away some drones).

Still, though, in a straight fight between the two, the executioner will easily win, and you won't have to wait until the game is over before you do it. And of course, you can always pay more to add prescience which makes the executioner more expensive by a fair bit over a naked riptide, but will also stand a decent chance of one-shotting it in a single volley...

Also if the riptide has drones, if you kill then you can force a break test and watch their 200+ point monster crap his pants and run off the board.

Yeah, a Pask punisher is 210 points, plus you have to sink more into yet another tank (why not Executioner?), but you can ruin just about anything's day with that much Rending, unless they are heavy armored infantry in good cover. Even AV14 vehicles you can glance to death, rerolling 1's to hit as well as all of those to glance/pen rolls. Yowch.

 Ailaros wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:The tank gets an armor save against the over-heat?

Yup, a 4+.

HawaiiMatt wrote:How are you killing a riptide in 2 turns? You get 5 shots right? -Matt

Six. 5 plasma cannon shots and a lascannon. Normally small blast is a liability, but here, against a model on a base as big as a riptide, it's going to be hard to miss completely.

Yeah, you'll have to be a little lucky to do it in two, but it's certainly doable. If your opponent does load up on a bunch of drones, that will also make things a bit more difficult, but now the riptide becomes more expensive (so I can at least take a stubber and HK to sweep away some drones).

Still, though, in a straight fight between the two, the executioner will easily win, and you won't have to wait until the game is over before you do it. And of course, you can always pay more to add prescience which makes the executioner more expensive by a fair bit over a naked riptide, but will also stand a decent chance of one-shotting it in a single volley...

Good news on the 4+, I didn't know that. So over 2 turns of shooting, you can expect 1-2 over-heats, and maybe 1 miss. I'm not so sure that in a strait up shoot out the Russ Wins. A S9 AP2 ordnance shot is a risk the the Russes front armor. 60" range is a lot better than 36.

To me, it sounds like both the Russ and the Riptide are firing on the wrong targets.

What is a better target for a 6-shot S7+ Ap2 weapon than a monstrous creature?

And losing 1 HP to put 6 Ap2 wounds on an MC seems like a fine trade to me.

This is weird. All the changes in the Astra Militarum codex reinforce the positions that Ailaros has been advancing for months. Ordnance Russes stayed the same or got a small cost increase while the rest saw steep discounts (in both hull costs and secondary weapons). With the changes to Pask, even the Punisher is effective now. Great, even!

I'm not going to say the Demolisher was mandatory, but it was at least a decent IG take on the Vindicator model. A bit more expensive, but with improved armor values and a turret mount. Not fantastic, but decent given the competition.

The new codex flips all that around, and now I find myself agreeing with what Ailaros has been saying all along. I don't know what I've done to deserve this.