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 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!

Great News, eh?

In Summary:

What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters

What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin

Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.

Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.

 Zewrath wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.

I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.

But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?

I think you're the one misunderstanding poor internal balance here.
We aren't measuring their power from a tournament standpoint alone, it's more simply due to the fact that if you took a squad of 9 Reavers with upgrades you where almost guaranteed to never make their points back, so why bother if you could get 2x5 warriors with Venom instead for same price? Speaking of the Venom, did you EVER see anyone in the world who DIDN'T get the no-brainer upgrade for 10 points for a splinter cannon? Why would you ever take scourges when their insane prices would only handicap your list with subpar performance and now your list lacks a Venom. Why would you ever take a Talos when the Talos was slower than a sloth and your army desperately needed AT which the Ravager did, so 1 Talos = 1 less Ravager, which you couldn't afford with your lackluster AT. The list goes on and on, but as others have mentioned before, the DE 5th codex is the textbook example of horrible internal balance.

Upon its release when WWP worked differently, the Talos was much more viable and much more common. Reavers were also much more popular too. These are definitely not units that never saw the table. Scourges are another crappy unit actually, I'll give you that, forgot about them. The nobrained upgrade for Venom is pretty irrelevant to the overall picture here, I mean the balance between Venoms and Raiders is quite well done and both were extremely popular, I mentioned a bunch of units like this competing quite heavily for the same slots and roles which you completely ignored, making your list of "and it goes on", an extremely poor response to this. So many different units were extremely popular and saw play and many many people had their own take on DE, every dex will always have one or two "best competitive builds" but ours was one of the most flexible with it being easy to fit almost any unit in the codex in without it ruining your build. Barely any dexes can say the same. The answer to Reavers issues in 7th, where it's still very playable regardless, is not to nerf them into the ground. I think our 7E release is going to be quite a rude awakening to some people who insist our 5E dex was unbalanced internally, in comparison to the rest of 40k it was possibly the best balanced dex in the game, it's hard to realise this from a drivers perspective because the flaws are more obvious, but where we have Mandrakes and Scourges, every other dex has just as many or more units that will never, ever hit the table, and have much less versatility in options that are safe to play without it being a ridiculous inclusion. Mandrakes are highlighted because they are so ridiculously bad, but at the end f the day, they are just as unplayable as CSM Warp Talons, possessed, Mutilators, Helbrutes, raptors, forgefiends, etc, (as were upon release, I can't keep up with the recent influx of data slates I'm sure some of them maybe somewhat playable today), and as written upon release, none of them would ever see any play in a sensible list ever. The same cannot be said about our less competitive models, with Grots - incubi occasionally appearing in Elites, Flyers being good in the HS, 3 very common different troop choices between whacks warriors and Wyches, all very playable and spam able in their own right, varied HQs from baron, Sliscus, Archons, Haemys, Vect, all consistently getting used, even Hexatrix aren't unplayable giving you very good and mobile Agoniser support to deal with beastpack tarpits (namely WK, other MCs, and bike blobs) while still continuing HWG saturation and threats. Similar, can be said for Reavers, And they got used quite often regardless. I think calling the last one unbalanced internally is silly - especially when the underlying statement was that the balance has degraded, which is almost undeniably the way it's looking,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because now we have to rework our entire armies

I think you must have missed the last 20 years if you think this is in anyway a new thing...

edit: That being said, I think it's a bit early to start the weeping and gnashing. Insert anecdote about the Codex: Eldar thread here.

Kind of exactly my point. We have gotten so accustomed to being served crap, and now that it's worse than ever it's still being accepted. Would it be so mucho to expect that a Wych cult army all riding Venoms would still be playable with the rollover? Why not leave the things that work and fix the ones that don't. These models were by nobody's standards OP. Except maybe a Knight player but they don't get to complain.


Also, I've mentioned several times that it remains to be seen, and that I'm merely commenting on the info at hand, aka what this thread is for.

 pretre wrote:
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.

If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.

Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.

I'm going to agree and then disagree

while I have always tried to collect a bunch of different types of models for my army, so I have had grots, a razorwing, raiders with dissies, all the beasts, hellions, scourges, large units of wracks, tons of character models, incubi and the archon court. I had 5 old mandrakes, they are somewhere.

What really bugs me is the lack of options for basic troops.

Warriors are fieldable in 2 variants. 5 in a venom with a blaster or 10 in a raider with a splinter cannon. Dark lances on warriors havent been viable since 3rd. Foot warriors havent been fieldable since about the same time. In no circumstance is it ever a smart idea to take a sybarite

Wyches havent been competitive in anything but suicide grenade squads since 5th. I kept my large units of 7-9 with a hextrix + haemi for combat longer than most and I paid for it. Now there is no reason to take them.

I want to collect cinematic models, I want each one of my units to have a sergent upgrade with some wargear, a blast pistol or power sword, or agonizer or something. But tell me, is there any reason to take any upgrades on any DE units?

I have dozens of HQ models, probably 11 Archons alone. All looking different and with different weapon options. I use to field a different one each battle. I had 2 on bikes. Now I can't field half of them as their weapon/mount choices dont exist. I have to field an HQ, but at the moment they are looking like a tax best to be avoided.

So moving forward:
Venoms, Scourges, maybe a grot bully unit, and an Archon Court(I'm excited about it). With an archon that is doing what exactly. Ill find out, but he might just wait in reserve to try and prevent giving up slay the warlord.

I think exergy gets it. I mean, you could own every unit in the dex, is there really that much to be happy about if every time one model becomes playable another becomes equally unusable? Especially when you need to buy a new overpriced codex just to continue playing at all?

BTW: Why are people saying that if the Ravagers move you can only snapshot? They are Fast Skimmers in the previous codex (FAQ) and i haven't seen anything that takes away from that in the new codex, so they can move 6" and still shoot everything.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In Summary:

What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters

What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin

Im not sure hellions go better. Loss of an attack per model and the ability to get grenades does get made up for by a reduction in points.

Reavers lost their signature flyover attack, and got a CC charge ability for less points. Not sure they got better

I keep looking at our AT ability and frowning. Dark Lances getting more expensive across the board, Ravagers getting more expensive to boot and losing flickerfields, the old nightshield, and aerial assault hurts bad.
Scourges make short work of landraiders, from about the same range, but DE ability to take out medium armor is going to be severly lacking.

Archons use to be duelists. Now they lack a way to get an AP2 weapon. What exactly is the point of a CCmonster with str3 and AP3? I'm definitly sure they did not get better.

 pretre wrote:
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.

I'm sure they do, but is that really surprising? I mean, yeah, if you own every model in the codex, it's likely at least some of them will be buffed.

 pretre wrote:

If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.

I could be misinterpreting your tone here (and if so, I apologise in advance), but you do seem oddly derisive of those who have become attached to their armies.

I don't collect wych armies myself, but I can certainly sympathise with those who got into DE to create wych armies. And, I don't see why anyone would defend a company with a policy of "sorry, we've sold most of our wych stock, so it's their turn to be crap for the next 4 years. But, look at these nice shiny grotesque models we've just buffed, wouldn't you rather have these instead? Don't worry - we have plenty in stock."

Grarg wrote:
BTW: Why are people saying that if the Ravagers move you can only snapshot? They are Fast Skimmers in the previous codex (FAQ) and i haven't seen anything that takes away from that in the new codex, so they can move 6" and still shoot everything.

They use to be able to move 12 and shoot everything. Now they are limited to 6" and cost 20 points more. Expect to see less of them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In Summary:

What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters

What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin

Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.

Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.

Wyches tank killing ability didn't get worse - the entire army's tank killing ability got worse with the loss/nerfs of our best and most reliable AT units. When the one thing everyone was hoping for with this release (read: earlier in this thread) was better AT.

That aside, there is more to well written codex's than dex power. With the loss of a substantial amount of units, the addition of none, and the nerf of crucial units, the buff of the Court, Mandrakes, and other units already playable do not even come close to making up for what we are losing going into this new dex. Especially when it comes to unit versatility. If anyone takes troop choices consisting of anything above the minimum amount of Warrior squads for mandatorys, its solely for spamming Venoms. And even then you are strictly limited to Warriors. Great improvement! Love the versatility! Brilliant writing on the new DE codex !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
More Coven info from The Dark City:

Formations

1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP

2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically

3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike

4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat

5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically

6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord

7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat

You know, when every I see the word "grot" I keep thinking of the ork unit.
It's kind of funny.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Upon its release when WWP worked differently, the Talos was much more viable and much more common. Reavers were also much more popular too. These are definitely not units that never saw the table. Scourges are another crappy unit actually, I'll give you that, forgot about them. The nobrained upgrade for Venom is pretty irrelevant to the overall picture here, I mean the balance between Venoms and Raiders is quite well done and both were extremely popular, I mentioned a bunch of units like this competing quite heavily for the same slots and roles which you completely ignored, making your list of "and it goes on", an extremely poor response to this. So many different units were extremely popular and saw play and many many people had their own take on DE, every dex will always have one or two "best competitive builds" but ours was one of the most flexible with it being easy to fit almost any unit in the codex in without it ruining your build. Barely any dexes can say the same. The answer to Reavers issues in 7th, where it's still very playable regardless, is not to nerf them into the ground. I think our 7E release is going to be quite a rude awakening to some people who insist our 5E dex was unbalanced internally, in comparison to the rest of 40k it was possibly the best balanced dex in the game, it's hard to realise this from a drivers perspective because the flaws are more obvious, but where we have Mandrakes and Scourges, every other dex has just as many or more units that will never, ever hit the table, and have much less versatility in options that are safe to play without it being a ridiculous inclusion. Mandrakes are highlighted because they are so ridiculously bad, but at the end f the day, they are just as unplayable as CSM Warp Talons, possessed, Mutilators, Helbrutes, raptors, forgefiends, etc, (as were upon release, I can't keep up with the recent influx of data slates I'm sure some of them maybe somewhat playable today), and as written upon release, none of them would ever see any play in a sensible list ever. The same cannot be said about our less competitive models, with Grots - incubi occasionally appearing in Elites, Flyers being good in the HS, 3 very common different troop choices between whacks warriors and Wyches, all very playable and spam able in their own right, varied HQs from baron, Sliscus, Archons, Haemys, Vect, all consistently getting used, even Hexatrix aren't unplayable giving you very good and mobile Agoniser support to deal with beastpack tarpits (namely WK, other MCs, and bike blobs) while still continuing HWG saturation and threats. Similar, can be said for Reavers, And they got used quite often regardless. I think calling the last one unbalanced internally is silly - especially when the underlying statement was that the balance has degraded, which is almost undeniably the way it's looking,
his thread is for.

I know exactly how the WWP worked on release and the only thing Talos got used for frequently was for conversion parts. Your meta must have been absurdly out of touch if you think the DE could afford anything else but Ravager spam in 5th edition, aka. Parking lot edition.
There's a difference between unplayable and poor balance. The Reavers wasn't bad and certainly not unplayable but they weren't worth their points when measured with other unit.

In the HQ department you never saw Lilith due to her poor rules and absurd cost. Vect was used in some alpha strike lists in 6th, but other than that, he never saw action. The Succubus was useless, the DE was riddled with massive amounts of war gear and somehow she was excluded from buying them. The Stock Archon with tons of ways to be equipped/Baron/Duke was so absurdly good for their points that they overshadowed anything else in that department, again, poor internal balance.

In the elite department you had grots.. Yeah, no.. Especially not with the nerf to the WWP. Wracks were decent, if only you had a hemmy but never as elite. Mandrakes, do I need to explain? Harlequins. Okay, so an assault unit who couldn't get an assault vehicle and need to footslog acros the map with very expensive upgrades and no durability. The only way to buy a transport with this unit is to buy Vect, buy his Dias and then fill it with the unit.. Yeah, go figure the cost. That leaves us with Bloodbrides, an expensive version of the tarpit unit, no thanks.
All that vs Incubi and the much, much better Trueborns. Again. No contest here, poor internal balance.

In the fast attack option we find the Hellions. A horrible unit with horrible saves, horrible stats and could only ever be made redeemable by the Baron, who was in a much better place amongst the beast pack. Reavers is a fun unit, sure, but was very over costed. 6th made them much better though but they were almost never worth their price tag, especially if you started giving them upgrades. Scourges, as explained before. Again, 1 unit, the beast pack is better than every single choice in FA range due to, you guessed it, poor internal balance.

In the heavy section there's the chronos parasite, or rather, no there isn't because no one took them as they don't work, because they are slow and could never buff those it was suppose to buff because it couldn't keep up. There's the Razorwing who isn't really that bad, it was best in 5th where you could exploit its 4 large blast alpha strike but other than that it was never as reliable as the much cheaper Ravager, especially when you wanted the lances afterwards and the Razorwing could never hide or claim cover and could be fragged by bolters. Void raven bomber was simply too damn expensive and having it only available for 1-3 turns arriving from reserve and assuming it didn't get shot down, where it could fire its 2 non-TL lance weapons was underwhelming to say the least. The Talos isn't bad in itself, but considering the fact that the DE doesn't need more stuff to kill infantry or MC's with, the Talos' role felt redundant. The fact that it's slow as a tree reaching for the sun didn't help much either. So again, the Ravager clearly outclassed every other heavy choice due to poor internal balance.

I could write about the war gear too, but that would make for a wall of text.

Well, you clearly aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion.

Why are we looking at Grots after the nerf to WWP? That was in the edition released after the codex, and is irrelevant to how well written the codex was. Why is Bloodbrides just an expensive tarpit unit when I explained a use for them?

Nobody said all these units had to be at the top of the competitive ladder to be viable, almost every codex in the game has a standout build. Almost all the units you mentioned were playable in some form or another without the list being totally gimmicky.

I don't get it, like how is the Hellions, Reavers, Vect, etc etc getting nerfed and removed an improvement. In any way. Especially since you are complaing about them being trash as well.

I've only skimmed your post so I'm not going to give an indepth response to everything, some of it is a little accurate, most is just bending the facts where necessary to suit ur standpoint

Even at the release of DE I don't remember anyone actually using Bloodbrides. From Day 1 the build I saw being pushed (because this was 5th and at the time there pretty much was only one good way to play an army, at least according to the internet) was focused around Ravagers, Trueborn in Venoms, Warriors in Raiders and an Archon either with the Trueborn or rolling with Incubi.

And the Venom's no-brainer upgrade is quite relevant, because it explains exactly what Phill Kelly doesn't understand about options for vehicle. Take the predator, it has upgrades for its turret and and sponsons, which changes its role completely and it has access to hunter killer missiles and dozer blades, THOSE things are optional extras. A 10 point tax in order to replace an incredibly gakky gun isn't as much an option as choosing not to crap your pants is an option.

 Zewrath wrote:
And the Venom's no-brainer upgrade is quite relevant, because it explains exactly what Phill Kelly doesn't understands about options for vehicle. Take the predator, it has upgrades for its turret and and sponsons, which changes its role completely and it has access to hunter killer missiles and dozer blades, THOSE things are optional extras. A 10 point tax in order to replace an incredibly gakky gun isn't as much an option as choosing not to crap your pants is an option.

This made me lol, but I'll play devils advocate half heartedly here. Periodically you build a list and just need a 5/10p to come from somewhere. I have, on occasion, dropped A cannon off of A venom to fit something in.

Best I can do for reasoning.

Honestly, to those saying the army's AT ability to hit -- I'd agree, in many aspects it did. Scourges can potentially fill that gap, but I'll concede there's a gap.

Think it's a coincidence that we've seen two books in a row with no way to reliably pop armor? Think Dark Eldar have a problem, try to play a mono Grey Knight list. Your option is melta bomb justicars and land raiders... that's it.

GW is releasing these codexes to require allies. It's devious to players. genius as a company. Any Eldar player who didn't break and get DE will at least pick up some raiders and an HQ now.

Dark Eldar players will come to see that WWP Wraithguard or Fire Dragons with their reserve roll reduced by an Autarch will be insanely annoying. All while Wave Serpents hit medium armor.

These books are supposed to be used in concert now. Will I miss being able to run wholly singular armies? Yes... but things are bright.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Well, you clearly aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion.

Why are we looking at Grots after the nerf to WWP? That was in the edition released after the codex, and is irrelevant to how well written the codex was. Why is Bloodbrides just an expensive tarpit unit when I explained a use for them?

Nobody said all these units had to be at the top of the competitive ladder to be viable, almost every codex in the game has a standout build. Almost all the units you mentioned were playable in some form or another without the list being totally gimmicky.

I don't get it, like how is the Hellions, Reavers, Vect, etc etc getting nerfed and removed an improvement. In any way. Especially since you are complaing about them being trash as well.

I've only skimmed your post so I'm not going to give an indepth response to everything, some of it is a little accurate, most is just bending the facts where necessary to suit ur standpoint

Reasonable discussion? I keep saying to you, over and over, my entire point isn't about strength in competitive ladder or that the units are unplayable, read what I am saying. The problem with the 5th DE, from start, is that there were so many choices who where VASTLY superior to their counterparts. Sure, you could play for fun and create a mixed list, but you were always punished for doing so. You would always perform significantly better if you stuck with the few vastly superior choices of the dex
Venom spam, Ravager spam and true born splinter/blaster spam has been the bread and butter way to play DE for the vast majority of the DE player base for 3 editions with a good reason, and that isn't bending any facts.
When did I ever say removing Vect and nerfing hellions was a good thing?

Everyone bemoaning this codex but seriously, they have I think more formations than anyone , plus one where its all in. That's awesome.

You can have 9 Fast Attack, yes please.

Codex looks great, and a lot of builds. Especially when combined with your battle brothers Eldar.

I mean gak, need some Psychics? Take the Formation , Primary Eldar and still take a huge psychic squad beast packs with invisibility. Wraith Guard flying around in their skimmers or deep striking in. Sticking Scorpions in actual assault vehicles.

To me it seems you got even more options.

The loss of Special Characters hurt but seriously that Court is crazy awesome. What I get 10 guys with AP2 ST4 Flamers, what the hell.

I mean Christ you have a no scatter deep strike, an ability that gives a - 1 LD, then another that's a one shot - 2 LD , then you have to take wounds on what you fail. I'm already calling the Spiritseer Archon drop pod of death. Because that's going to be a thing without a doubt. There are some really nasty things in that codex from the leaks and it is not pleasant for thsoe of us with low LD armies.

Whats making me smile is that my 7th ed. DE list is looking a lot like my 5th ed DE list.


The only difference is I'm dropping all dark lances from vehicles and trueborn and getting three units of scourges to take up the heavy armor busting abilities.

There's a lot of psychology at play here with my disappointment.

I've got a lot of ravagers, some reavers, wyches, beast pack, etc. I had just around 1850.

Now it looks like I'll have to completely rework my army. The major blow isn't just that "oh well the scourges look good, I should buy some of those", its the "oh I need a ton of scourges AND the entire core of my current army got worse!"

So instead of being able to slowly collect new models and enjoy my old army as it grows into my new army, I have to play with a bitter taste in my mouth, remembering what once was with my old models.

Its the kind of thing that makes you say "feth it, I'm just not going to buy anything and go play something else." So instead of getting money from me for new models and me buying books, I've just thrown my hands into the air and walked away. I did the same with my orks. Going to do the same with my DE.

Reavers are better now. *Substantially* better per-point.

These people calling them nerfed... where do they come from?

Yup. Me too. I prefer my DE with the flavour of fast moving Kaballite and Wyche raiders, more akin to pirates. At least my Ravagers, Venoms and Kabalites are still playable. I might even let Lelith come out to play now. But my Hellions, Reavers, Masses of Wyches and Incubi look like they might be shelved.

I resent having having to move to S&M Gimp elves with muscly servants who enjoy a flogging or two, whilst in delicious irony, bending over for GW to roger me senseless with an expensive codex supplement. Life imitate art much? But it does look like I'll be needing some CE support. Which is a shame as I enjoy 'pure' armies.

Apropo of nothing, I've just spotted how much the Raven looks like a raven!

We're going to have a special guest with the Dark Eldar codex joining in 5 minutes. twitch.tv/torrentoffire

 Oaka wrote:
I think 'forging the narrative' allows for using rules from previous editions, if I'm not mistaken.

I wouldn't mind, especially if they're all painted well; rule of cool and all. (maybe no beastpack tho that's a stretch.)

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In Summary:

What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters

What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin

Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.

Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.

LOL.

I often disagree with you DE, but well done, sir

There's a few negative nancies here, I think there ard some game changing buffs if you combine DE with CWE. This Eldar Supplement: Dark Eldar will be awesome.

Though Reavers, Helions, Wyches and Lelith (who is Still overpriced) are basically unusable. Oh yea and no more 1-3 Haemonculi.

This isn't even the worst by a long shot. Orkz? Tyranids??? Is GW trying to put itself out of business?

Unusable?



God I love this place.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
In Summary:

What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters

What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin

Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.

Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.

LOL.

I often disagree with you DE, but well done, sir

RE: The underlined portion
Everything except Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers, Voidravens, Archons, Splinter Cannons, and Hellions.

Coven is looking SICK though.