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Unusable?

O.o

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Unusable?



God I love this place.

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

Just got my hands on a codex.


Also, the formation trait, haemy's trait and the animus vitae trait that adds to the PfP turn are all stackable.

*edited out some wrong info.

EvolutionDemon wrote:
Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.

WAIT WHAT?

Can or Cant?

Edit: Also, pics?

looking at scans of the codex, thanks /tg/...

some wyche stuff

Succubus was definately buffed over last edition.

Archite glaive is not unwieldy, and despite not getting access to as much wargear is the archon it is possible to end up with 5 str 6 ap 2 attacks on charge once you get FC from PFP and if you get +str combat drugs, which is pretty serious. Also gets access to WWP despite not getting access to arcane gear where it is normally purchased from. Also has access to the artefact armor so can get out of combat dodge save.

Dodge only works in fight subphase, so no dodge versus overwatch.

Lelith- league apart changed, rerolls in challenges, can be upgrade to reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Attacks ignore all armor.

Wyches- 1 can take wyche weapons, if the squad is 10+ 3 can take wyche weapons. max size is 15. Hek and syren only upgrade optiosn are power sword, or agonizer for melee, can take blast pistol, and PGL. Haywire grenades as stated.

Agonizer is now poisoned 4+ and ap is same, the change to poisoned is a good deal as with certain drugs/FC you will get your str above target toughness for benefit as per poisoned USR.

WWP does give deepstrike to model and any unit it is with and or embarked transport.

All wyche weapons are ap 5 now. Hydra gaunts =shred, razor flail= reroll all failed to hit rolls, shardnet impaler now reroll 1s for to hit and wound, no attack reduction, always counts as a pair of cc wpns.

EDIT: The fancy weapons are trash BTW. A 50% point increase for 25% damage increase makes no sense. Just take more units.

Also, I keep seeing this about the Wych weapons, and it's simply not true.

Compare 7 Wyches to 6 Wyches with 2/Hydra Gauntlets, the Hydras give you a clear damage advantage against MeQ (1.22 versus 1.17 of the charge, assuming no damage based combat drugs) and pretty massive difference against GeQ, Orcs, etc, as they have AP 5.

Also, their are fixed costs (the Raider itself) and transport capacities that come into play.

Just FYI.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

EvolutionDemon wrote:
Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.

WAIT WHAT?

Can or Cant?

Edit: Also, pics?

poster was mistaken, archon cannot take either. Both are listed as arcane wargear on p.107 in the codex and archon has access to arcane wargear, but from wargear list for arcane wargear it is not a purchasable option. This is why some people have been confused.

blaktoof wrote:
looking at scans of the codex, thanks /tg/...

some wyche stuff

Succubus was definately buffed over last edition.

Archite glaive is not unwieldy, and despite not getting access to as much wargear is the archon it is possible to end up with 5 str 6 ap 2 attacks on charge once you get FC from PFP and if you get +str combat drugs, which is pretty serious. Also gets access to WWP despite not getting access to arcane gear where it is normally purchased from. Also has access to the artefact armor so can get out of combat dodge save.

Dodge only works in fight subphase, so no dodge versus overwatch.

Lelith- league apart changed, rerolls in challenges, can be upgrade to reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Attacks ignore all armor.

Wyches- 1 can take wyche wepaons, if the squad is 10+ 3 can take wyche weapons. max size is 15. Hek and syren only upgrade optiosn are power sword, or agonizer for melee, can take blast pistol, and PGL. Haywire grenades as stated.

Agonizer is now poisoned 4+ and ap is same, the change to poisoned is a good deal as with certain drugs/FC you will get your str above target toughness for benefit as per poisoned USR.

WWP does give deepstrike to model and any unit it is with and or embarked transport.

All wyche weapons are ap 5 now. Hydra gaunts =shred, razor flail= reroll all failed to hit rolls, shardnet impaler now reroll 1s for to hit and wound, no attack reduction, always counts as a pair of cc wpns.

Do you have a link?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

EvolutionDemon wrote:
Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.

WAIT WHAT?

Can or Cant?

Edit: Also, pics?

Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.

Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs

there are scans up on

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/35257387/the-life-and-death-of-dark-eldar

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.

Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.

EvolutionDemon wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

EvolutionDemon wrote:
Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.

WAIT WHAT?

Can or Cant?

Edit: Also, pics?

Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.

Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs

check the arcane wargear list with points values its not on there, so not an option.

blaktoof wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

EvolutionDemon wrote:
Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.

WAIT WHAT?

Can or Cant?

Edit: Also, pics?

poster was mistaken, archon cannot take either. Both are listed as arcane wargear on p.107 in the codex and archon has access to arcane wargear, but from wargear list for arcane wargear it is not a purchasable option. This is why some people have been confused.

Ahh ok. I'll edit that post to remove further confusion.

Just took a look at p69 for purchasable wargear and yup they're not there. :-(

EvolutionDemon wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

EvolutionDemon wrote:


Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.

Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs

Bikes and skyboards are not listen in the section that has the arcane wargear prices. The arcane wargear is shadow field, clone field, wwp, haywire grenades, soul trap and pgl.

So sadly no bikes or skyboards.

Thought I would add for fun, Lhameans, they no longer have venom blades, new blade same poison as venom blade and rolls of 6 to wound = ID.

Also, people keep saying the Djin blade is bad? I'm not sure why. Particularly on the Archon, all your wounds beyond 1 are kind of superfluous (because once that field goes down...). +2 Attacks is pretty boss, honestly. Not sure the cost, though.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.

Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.

Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.

Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.

Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.

Sounds like you got it all figured out man. Keep up the good work.

couple more interesting bigs.

CoM is no longer 1 per army, every Haem can get one.

If you pull off 'agonizing' from certain weapon, and haem is in squad you get fnp 5+ turn 1. If you have architect of agony (wl trait[kabalite raiding party formation gets this trait for archon if wl) everyone in army gets it turn 2. (turn 1 if haem in squad)this can be improved to fnp 4+ from certain items.

So it is possible to start off with FnP of 6+/5+/4+ if you get first turn and certain other combinations which are not impossible, or even rare if you try to set them up.

That said, t3 and FnP is nice, but str6+ = so what?

Hexrifle is more usable, now ID on precision shot instead of failed T test after taking a wound.

Scissorhand lost the pair of ccwpn rule but gained rending and is now poisoned 4+

haem can take WWP, even though does not have access to arcane wargear.

outside of artefacts no access to inv save or better armor.


Drazhar dropped in cost 40 points, gained rampage. old special rules for him only, gone. New ones- drazhar and all incubi in unit get +1ws if drazhar is joined to incubi unit. Each 6 drazhar rolls to wound grants a bonus attack, bonus attacks do not generate further bonus attacks.

incubi- same stats, cost changed as mentioned previously. can upgrade 1 to klaivex for 10 pts. klaivex lost all old exarch like and wargear options other than klaive-> demi klaives, but gained rampage.

That said, t3 and FnP is nice, but str6+ = so what?

That restriction to FNP has been there since FNP existed. I don't know why people keep bringing it up now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Animus Vitae plus WWP sounds like a solid combo.

I am guessing because there are reasons why wyches and many other units have been more or less non-viable as competitive choices for assault is because they are fragile and relatively costly for little punch, and nothing has changed to improve that. That would be why I brought it up.

edit-

reavers still get access to heat lances and blasters, they both cost less than before.

grav talon and cluster caltrops cost less than before, both and weapons are are still 1 in 3 models.

scourges-

do get access to power lance

also get access to venom blade (very few models do now)

The Shardnet & Impaler section seems pretty redundant. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
I am guessing because there are reasons why wyches and many other units have been more or less non-viable as competitive choices for assault is because they are fragile and relatively costly for little punch, and nothing has changed to improve that. That would be why I brought it up.

But it has been changed. They are objectively more resilient to explosions and the vast majority of Overwatch in the game (bolters and such). S6+ has nothing to do with either of these things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I might add, that they can actually get T4 now...so....yeah...uh, that seems like it might change things, no?

I apologize, im not counting on getting a 1/6 chance of getting T4, if duke was still around maybe. but no.

they are more resilient to explosions when they get fnp 5+.

before you could put a 30pt haem with venom blade with them that would give them fnp5+ from the start, now if you put a 70pt haem with them they are getting fnp 6+ from the start. not quite changed for the better.

their dodge save still can't be taken versus overwatch still as it is specifically limited to the fight subphase of assault which happens after overwatch. so not sure how you are saying they got better there.

I apologize, im not counting on getting a 1/6 chance of getting T4, if duke was still around maybe. but no

"Can't count on" is not the same as "nothing has changed."

Also, Haemies were 50 points, not 30. You were effectively paying 5.6 points/model for FNP.

I was referring to the free FNP they would have against Overwatch now. Dodge has nothing to do with it.

void raven-

160pts

supersonic, nightvision

comes stock with void lances, void mine

replace lanes with disintegrator version is free

missiles have to be taken in sets of 4, can only select one set of 4. One is shatterfieldx4, other is shatterfieldx2 implosionx2, last is implosionx4 40/50/60pts

option for night shields.

av is 10 all around.

raiding party formation-
archonx1
courtx1
incubix1
ravagerx1
kabalite warriorrsx6
scourgesx1
hellionsx1


all units in formation except archon must take raider or venom if they have the option, archon can choose whether or not to take venom

benefits-
If archon is warlord, and alive, all units in formation with PfP treat turn as 1 earlier. cumulative with similiar effects.

hunt from shadows- cover thing mentioned for detachment with 6 fa

reroll wl trait if wl from this formation.

Think about it this way. Instead of having 3 Raiders with Haemies and Wyches, you can almost afford 4 Raiders full of Wyches now. That's a pretty massive difference.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.

Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.

Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.

I'm not sure how wyches are going to be shot by S6 weapons if they are currently tar pitting a unit in HTH, in which case they have a 4++ and variable FNP to stay alive (not to mention what ever drug bonus you rolled up.

As for tarpitting something on turn 3. Wyches + raider w/aethersails + reserves = 1 turn to kill/stop the wyches before they assault something that needs to be tied up on turn 3.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!

Great News, eh?

really miffed the decided to make a new generic archon and a new generic succubus but no special characters...

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I apologize, im not counting on getting a 1/6 chance of getting T4, if duke was still around maybe. but no

"Can't count on" is not the same as "nothing has changed."

Also, Haemies were 50 points, not 30. You were effectively paying 5.6 points/model for FNP.

I was referring to the free FNP they would have against Overwatch now. Dodge has nothing to do with it.

1/6 chance is not good.

regardless I do agree that the new PFP system greatly benefits MSU dark eldar, and if you take small squads of wyches overall you will see more FnP saves then before.

relying or even hoping for a single roll to be the 1/6 you need to get +1 toughness however is not really a valid strategy as its obviously something you cannot plan on.

saying you were paying 5.6 points a model for FnP was a little off as the haemy often brought more than just FnP, even with just a venom blade/splinter pistol it would rack up more kills against MeQ or almost anything than 2-3 wyches on average. Effectively becoming 2 wyches in result of action so you were really paying 3.2pts for FnP for the MeQ killing potential of 11 wyches in a squad of 9 wyches with a haem.

Again, who said anything about relying on anything. 1/6th chance > then no chance, which is what you originally alleged.

saying you were paying 5.6 points a model for FnP was a little off as the haemy often brought more than just FnP, even with just a venom blade/splinter pistol it would rack up more kills against MeQ or almost anything than 2-3 wyches on average. Effectively becoming 2 wyches in result of action so you were really paying 3.2pts for FnP for the MeQ killing potential of 11 wyches in a squad of 9 wyches with a haem.

That's a fair point. Still, 3.2/per can get a little pricey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed the Parasites Kiss is only 5 points. That weapon is really pretty nice for the price. Not amazing, but it's far from the "trash" people were calling it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anybody figured out what chain-flails do now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, see it now, Shred.