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Do we know if Dracons and Sybarites can get HW grenades?

Yes to both.

2 pts?

5

 Jayden63 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?

I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.

Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.

Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.

I'm not sure how wyches are going to be shot by S6 weapons if they are currently tar pitting a unit in HTH, in which case they have a 4++ and variable FNP to stay alive (not to mention what ever drug bonus you rolled up.

As for tarpitting something on turn 3. Wyches + raider w/aethersails + reserves = 1 turn to kill/stop the wyches before they assault something that needs to be tied up on turn 3.

I'm having a very hard time thinking of any army that would have trouble blowing up a Raider and killing the Wyches inside in a single turn. Also if they come on turn 2, no FNP. If they come on turn 3+, not really a great investment if you are aiming to tarpit on turn 4+.

Guh.

I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.

I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.

GW canmy goat and horseradish . Twice.

Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.

I'm having a very hard time thinking of any army that would have trouble blowing up a Raider and killing the Wyches inside in a single turn.

Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.

Also if they come on turn 2, no FNP.

Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.

If they come on turn 3+, not really a great investment if you are aiming to tarpit on turn 4+.

What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?

 Mastiff wrote:
Guh.

I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.

I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.

GW canmy goat and horseradish . Twice.

Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.

Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?

 pretre wrote:

Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?

I think it might have been satire but I'm not positive.

 Exergy wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!

Great News, eh?

really miffed the decided to make a new generic archon and a new generic succubus but no special characters...

Which I find really funny because you can find any number of Sci-fi based S&Mish elves for purchase from other games to use as count as Archon and Succubus, yet special characters get culled because someone somewhere might make a sci-fi based S&Mish elf with a name.

Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.

Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.

And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5...

What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

One thing that I have yet to see mentioned and I have no real answer for myself is what the hell is a pure DE army supposed to do about flyers?

I have not heard about a single infantry model with the skyfire/intercepter rule. If they are saying we are supposed to use Razorwings with their two darklances to take down things like Stormwolves/fangs, chibihawks, or crimson hunters thats just too damn funny.

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).

Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

Not in close combat they don't.

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.

You dont send them after worthwhile CC units. You send them after things like broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads. You send them after things that have high shooty output and dont really fight back too hard in HTH. You need to silence their big guns with wyches. You knock out their heavy HTH threats with massed poison, Grots, or incubi.

Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.

And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5.

If and only if they are in range. Raiders that are moving flat out, nobody shoots from. Walking Kabilites can only reach things 24" away with a single shot each. Not impressive. There is value in swarm tactics and getting things in your face. You bottleneck their movement, create choke points. Often that initial 36" move/positioning that you make with raiders is more important than any casulties you might cause from firing splinter rifles from your board edge. And once things are close and HTH is eminent, you will want wyches more than warriors because in combat, wyches are much more survivable.

What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.

Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.

Bingo.

Hey i just wanna know if the rumor is true that there is no LoW in this codex. Sorry if someone already asked the question i just can't find it in this thread.

Just ran some numbers.

6 Reavers, 2 Cluster Caltrops, +1 Attack Combat Drug, and an AC with an Agonizer kill about 7.30 MEQ on the charge (including shooting).

That's pretty interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tehinchman wrote:
Hey i just wanna know if the rumor is true that there is no LoW in this codex. Sorry if someone already asked the question i just can't find it in this thread.

This is correct.

10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.

10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.

First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.

Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).

Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

Not in close combat they don't.

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.

There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.

On Topic:
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing. You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them. Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage. Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.

First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.

Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.

Oh yeah, you make a good point with the Agoniser.

That being said, it wasn't always easy to justify Wyches in their last incarnation, I don't think I'll ever be running them now, as dealing with MC's is not something I've ever had issues with as DE lol.

Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).

Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

Not in close combat they don't.

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.

There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.

On Topic:
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing. You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them. Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage. Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.

Yeah, that guy has been extremely rude and abrasive about his point of view the entire way through.

I have to agree with your logic, you've used logic and sensible reasoning the whole way through, and the responses of "well you must just be bad at CC units l2p noob" prove nothing and help nobody. Just check the correct box and keep it moving imo.

I don't think there is many situations that I would rather have a unit of Wyches over a unit of Warriors.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.

Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.

You dont send them after worthwhile CC units. You send them after things like broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads. You send them after things that have high shooty output and dont really fight back too hard in HTH. You need to silence their big guns with wyches. You knock out their heavy HTH threats with massed poison, Grots, or incubi.

Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.

And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5.

If and only if they are in range. Raiders that are moving flat out, nobody shoots from. Walking Kabilites can only reach things 24" away with a single shot each. Not impressive. There is value in swarm tactics and getting things in your face. You bottleneck their movement, create choke points. Often that initial 36" move/positioning that you make with raiders is more important than any casulties you might cause from firing splinter rifles from your board edge. And once things are close and HTH is eminent, you will want wyches more than warriors because in combat, wyches are much more survivable.

What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?

Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.

For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.

Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.

What competent player is going to let Wyches make it to his broadsides/cents/etc? HYMP broadsides would eat the Wyches in a single round of shooting even on bad dice. And we haven't even gotten into markerlight supported overwatch + supporting fire.

 jamopower wrote:
Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.

What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.

First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.

Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.

How are you catching a Jump MC with Wyches? Raider/Venom is not a viable answer here when a single Wave Serpent has almost a 100% chance of wrecking it on turn 1 (or the turn it comes on the board)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.

What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?

I would say that they need to be 8 ppm and have Dodge work in Overwatch.

There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.

Yes, I'm quite insecure. I wasn't being rude. I was merely pointing out my observations. It's readily apparent when people struggle with the CC portion of the game.

A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing.

Interesting caveat. What if the DE player knows what they are doing?

You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them.

Not if they are coming in from reserves...

Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage

I think you are somewhat over amplifying a Splinter cannon and some rifles to make your point. It's ait. It's not overwhelmingly awesome sauce. Wyches can more then make up for the damage once they reach CC, particularly as they are also intrinisically in a better position Objective wise when they have done so.

Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.

LOL. You keep saying they are terrible at their role without actually demonstrating they are terrible at their role. Wyches are just fine in CC once they get to it, particularly for an OS unit.

Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.

Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ and FNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.

So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.

What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?

I would say that they need to be 8 ppm and have Dodge work in Overwatch.

I would say that they need help from the actual rules of the game. With the haywires they were viable because with them they were really good against anything with an armour value. Making them shine in CC would probably need so much buffs that they would end up being broken, but dodge in overwatch could be a good start.