Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.

And how is a small improvement not better than nothing?? It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.

And how is a small improvement not better than nothing?? It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.

Necrons ?

Tyranids ?

Facts..

This is the background forum. It doesn't matter if the playing field is equalized if everyone would get Riptides. Why ?
Because the major asset of GW and the thing that keeps more people keeping an eye on 40k is the Background. So No, silly ideas are silly.

Psykers should be able to summon Demons if they know the way to.
But some shouldn't want to and thats where the difference between chaos followers and some heretics and the rest of the Galaxy kicks in.

I find the argument that all races CAN summon daemons a bit silly. All the races CAN kill themselves too but that doesnt mean
they will.

For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.

They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!

 tomball0706 wrote:
For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.

They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!

In fairness GK get Perils on a double.

Personally, I feel like the ability for races other than chaos / chaos daemons to purposely summon daemons is an absolute abuse of the past 25 years of story/history


If GW had perhaps said the following, I would be content:

''Chaos and Chaos Daemons may deliberately summon daemons to the battlefield....''

''Imperial/Non-Chaos Xeno forces that roll perils of the warp may roll to see if they summon a daemon which is under the control of a chaos player / if no chaos player is present, then it attacks the nearest units until dead''


If only, the filthy nerf-herders

 Exergy wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.

really, if a Space Marine starts summoning the forces of Chaos he becomes a Chaos Space Marine?

Seems like a jump to me.

5E C:SM psychic powers had Librarians summoning an avatar of some kind of hero. In-game it was just a flmae template attack, but the fluff was them summoning a being.

---> SM were summoning daemons before it was cool.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.

They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!

In fairness GK get Perils on a double.

Gks cant roll on the Malefic chart that summons daemons, Ony the Sanctic chart which has yet to be revealed

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

nobody wrote:
Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.

If you say so. I do not care about HH at the slightest, because marinefest.

nobody wrote:
In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.

We have example. Like the relictors. But using a sword is totally not the same thing as summoning actual daemons. You have to be pretty stupid not to notice that those bloodthristers/daemonettes/plaguebearers are daemons. And if there is one thing that is supposed to be more hated and with whom consort is the most unforgivable sin, even more than xenos and heretics, it is daemon. It is supposed to be an instant death sentence. Even fighting against them may condemn you, actually. So, yeah, no summoning them in front of all your pals.

They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons. And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.

And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.

nobody wrote:
They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons.

And the marines did not realized it, and even with this it lead to them being declared excomunicate traitoris!

nobody wrote:
And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.

Again, that was deception and them not realizing where those mutations come from. It is pretty hard not to recognize a bloodthirster as a daemon…

nobody wrote:
And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.

Willingly invoking daemons during a battle means have researched the spell beforehand. Which is very, very heretic with extra heresy.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.

Yes, both black and white people can summon demons. No, not all factions, or all species, can summon daemons. Tau cannot. Necrons cannot. I do not think there is any reference to orks doing that, ever. Eldars would be extremely unlikely to do that, especially Slaaneshi daemons.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.

It puts all army bar Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle on a level playing field. So, uh, it does not provide any kind of actual playing field. Not to mention that different factions have access to different psykers for different point costs, that comes with different profile and different rules and different wargear, so in the end, even for the armies that have access to the same domains, it does not provide a level playing field.
Now, if GW wants to provide a level playing field, my Faction still does not have any access to fliers or anti-air weaponry.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

nobody wrote:
They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons.

And the marines did not realized it, and even with this it lead to them being declared excomunicate traitoris!

nobody wrote:
And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.

Again, that was deception and them not realizing where those mutations come from. It is pretty hard not to recognize a bloodthirster as a daemon…

nobody wrote:
And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.

Willingly invoking daemons during a battle means have researched the spell beforehand. Which is very, very heretic with extra heresy.

The Relictors realized it after the first time one was used accidentally, and then decided to gather more, it was AFTER they attacked an Inquisition force to get a powerful artifact that they were declared.

And as for learning how to summon daemons, there are several ways they could have learned:

1. Researching ahead of time (and not getting caught).
2. Being whispered the spell by daemonic voices on the battlefield when they are in danger of being overrun.
3. Being taught a ritual to banish daemons (or a psychic ability to summon help ala Psychic Communion) by a "helpful" Inquisitor (who could have been a Radical, a disguised Sorcerer, or even the Changeling) that works very differently from what was described.

In any event, once they've realized what they've done there's multiple paths open to them. They either throw themselves at the mercy of the Inquisition (or the rest of their chapter), or go renegade. Once they go renegade they can end up like the Relictors (loyalist to an extent), or they can fall ever further, becoming Chaos Marines themselves.

But they wouldn't exactly trade their Stormtalons for Helldrakes right away.

Perhaps it's intended as a way to allow players to use loyalist codexes as their own "counts as" heretical army with daemon summoning.

I'm betting that's the stance they're trying to take, paired with their other famous "we don't give a damn about balance" stance, which allows for loyalists who AREN'T heretics to summon daemons.

I think I would at least like to see, in the imperial codices: Any psyker using malefic daemonology in battle is counted as a casualty at the end of the game, due to being executed for heresy.

I could see and justify both the Grey Knights doing it to train their recruits for battle, or information gain ans the Exorcists Chapter as they summon and then exorcise the demon as part of their lore.

I mean why not have a chapter or group of Loyalists that are walking a fine line, The inquisition have daemon hosts is that not summon and binding a daemon to do your bidding?

I'm not stressing it too much. As a true GK at heart I wont be summoning deamons, and those that do are heretical filth and will be purged like the rest of the neverborn!

But on a more serious not i have a feeling this is going to go the same way as the bound and unbound army list thing will. you will have those WAAC players who will abuse
the rules to their benefit and try and do it to come out ahead and you will have players such as myself who shy away from such heresy. I mean i like to play competitively but
i also try to stay within the guide lines of the fluff and have armies that some what make sense. I don't try to take a Necron army with Eldar allies if you catch my drift. So yeah
i think it will just split up between the people who and the people who don't and eventually the two will only play within there respective groups for the most part.

The problem is that the reason 40K is appealing is the background fluff. If you take that away what is 40K? Just a half-rate game compared to the competition that's out there now.

I play 40K because I've read so many books and loved the background for years before I started investing in the tabletop.

With allies and now this it just seems like they are starting to not care at all about the fluff, which was arguably the one thing that GW held onto despite everything else.

 herpguy wrote:
The problem is that the reason 40K is appealing is the background fluff. If you take that away what is 40K? Just a half-rate game compared to the competition that's out there now.

I play 40K because I've read so many books and loved the background for years before I started investing in the tabletop.

With allies and now this it just seems like they are starting to not care at all about the fluff, which was arguably the one thing that GW held onto despite everything else.

...that's...I just...I don't...

Games Workshop has NEVER had any real loyalty to their own fluff. Every new book, codex, main rules set, or spin-off game as re-written the fluff to suit the needs at the moment. I, too, love the Games Workshop fluff, but I just can't see any way to look at the situation and think that they "held onto [the fluff] despite everything else."

Furthermore, this doesn't particularly bother me. Loyalist chapters falling to Chaos are far more common than other things in the fluff that NO ONE has a problem being represented on the table-top. And it isn't like rogue members don't exist either. From the Blood Ravens to the Salamanders to the entirety of the Soul Drinkers chapter, there are plenty of traitorous vipers snuggled up against the toasty bosom of the Imperium. And that's not to MENTION the myriad chapters that are just ACHING to go Chaos, what with all their mutations and heretical beliefs, like the Black Dragons, the Blood Angels (and all their successors), and the Space Wolves.

Would it bother me if someone just had Tigurius or Ezekiel just summoning a Bloodthirster because, reasons? Heck yes. But I don't think it's a stretch AT ALL to have an army or a list or a scenario that makes it okay for a loyalist (rules-wise) force to summon a demon.

It's quite simple. Loyalists do not summon daemons. If your psyker is summoning daemons, he is already lost to the Ruinous Powers. If the rest of the army is OK with this, they are also lost. If someone tries to claim some sort of special snowflake fluff exemption so their dudes can summon daemons and still serve Mankind, I will laugh right in their face.

I'm really hoping Eldar, Grey Knights, and Sisters all get Sanctic only. The Eldar have a better understanding of the cost of dealing with Chaos than anyone else, and the GK/SoB are too fanatical to ever consider it (and they don't represent multiple distinct viewpoints, unlike Vanilla Marines or Guard for example).

What would be cool is if GK/SoB have a rule that if an allied force uses a Malefic power, all units in the GK/SoB detachment immediately switch sides and are now controlled by your opponent. Also maybe expand It's For Your Own Good to include intentional use of Malefic powers, since Commissars shouldn't be in a Traitor Guard detachment anyway.

 Bludbaff wrote:
I'm really hoping Eldar, Grey Knights, and Sisters all get Sanctic only. The Eldar have a better understanding of the cost of dealing with Chaos than anyone else, and the GK/SoB are too fanatical to ever consider it (and they don't represent multiple distinct viewpoints, unlike Vanilla Marines or Guard for example).

You know that Sisters have no psykers anyway, and never will, right? No santic, no malefic, no telepathy, no pyromancy, nothing. Just acts of faith, that are not in any way psychic powers.

I was under the impression that Sanctic powers were going to be the new system for Faith. I mean, they are manifestations of the Emperor's will, right? That sounds an awful lot like Emperor-guided warp manifestations.

I think it represents the temptation that Chaos has, but brings it in as a game mechanic. It makes the corruption of Chaos real. Sure, you may have a loyalist army, but it's ultimately up to you as a commander to decide whether or not to fall to Chaos to win a battle.

@herpguy, no point arguing, there is no strict canon in 40k.

I could write A story where loyalists have no choice but to summon daemons if I introduced certain plot mechanics to justify it.

Let me quote the dow librarian: "there is no such thing as canon, only degrees of rejection"

It all depends on whether others wish to accept your fluff. Kaldor Draigo for instance.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And that's not to MENTION the myriad chapters that are just ACHING to go Chaos, what with all their mutations and heretical beliefs, like the Black Dragons, the Blood Angels (and all their successors), and the Space Wolves.

Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.

Back to OP, I think what would be a cool idea is that you roll your normal psychic powers, if you fail and suffer perils then you have to roll something and that decides if you turn into a Daemon or not. Then you roll every turn or phase and if you pass you maintain control, if not something bad happens. That way you can still bring Daemons into Loyalist armies and still keep it semi-fluffy? Kind of like a fun accident?

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?

Imperial Guard sanctioned psykers are actually highly educated and highly trained in the ways of the warp. That's how they earned sanctioning in the first place. In terms of "tiers" of psykers sent to the astra telepathica, they've had to prove their brains, loyalty, and discipline above the guys that get fed to the astronomicon, above the guys that get fed to the Emperor (those two groups make up the VAST majority of the psykers that the Black Ships take in. Note that even the guys that get fed to the Emperor had to go through a lot of training for that. Emps only eats quality psykers, yo), and above the astropaths. Only after proving you're more disciplined and trustworthy enough to be trusted with the secrets of the warp than all those other guys (and again, that's the vast majority of the psykers) do you get to be a sanctioned psyker.

Well, that's what I remember at least. Too lazy to go check but I'm pretty sure that's it.

 FantomAntichrist wrote:
I think it represents the temptation that Chaos has, but brings it in as a game mechanic. It makes the corruption of Chaos real. Sure, you may have a loyalist army, but it's ultimately up to you as a commander to decide whether or not to fall to Chaos to win a battle.

So, what, next time you play you suffer the consequences of falling to Chaos in your previous game? An inquisitor shows up and kills your warlord or something?

Exorcists Space Marine Chapter. Not daemon weapon users like the Relictors. All the new guys have to be possessed by one, then exorcised. Somebody is up to something, they just don't jump in any meat suit standing at the 40k Subway.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.

Orks don't hate. Orks love. We love a good fight. And we love you if you bring a good fight. And we'z gona kill you for it.

 koooaei wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.

Orks don't hate. Orks love. We love a good fight. And we love you if you bring a good fight. And we'z gona kill you for it.

It's a strange love but it works

Orks and Yarrick sitting in a tree
K-I-L-L-I-N-G...

Game wise it will have some strange combinations on the play table as for fluff;

Fluff has left the GW building, thank you very much.

And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.

 Selym wrote:


Orks and Yarrick sitting in a tree
K-I-L-L-I-N-G...

Good one. Ghazzy and Yarick walking in a park holding klaws.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.

No one is disagreeing with this. What's your point? Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?