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I feel better now that I procrastinated on building the gravstar with buffmander.

 ace101 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I personally despise the army and laugh whenever something bad befalls it, from an objective standpoint, the new allies matrix appears to once again give the middle finger to Tyranids players.

Clearly you missed the buff that is Tyranids can actually ally with some!!!

It just so happens to be more 'Nids. Take that as you will, but we can now say that Tyranids aren't totally screwed (3 Flyrants without Double FoC anyone?).

True, but if I'm reading it right, EVERYONE can ally with themselves, yeah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nobody wrote:
I feel better now that I procrastinated on building the gravstar with buffmander.

Oh, I got lots of use out of the Buffmander before it went away. So delightful. I think I may try to get one more game in with him attached to a 4 plasma cannon devastator squad.

 Guilldog wrote:
I leave hawaii in two weeks. But who knows its a small world

Well maybe your coming closer to where I am lol.

I don't see the problem with all Imperial armies being battle-brothers with one another. Grey Knights murdered some Sisters? Space Wolves and the Inquisition have come to blows? Who cares? These are all isolated incidences over the long view. Who knows how many times the GK and Sisters have gotten together just fine over the course of the Imperium's 10,000 year existence? Space Wolves and the Inquisition had no problem fighting together before the 1st war for Armageddon, and even afterwards the fluff makes note that there are Inquisitors who have no problem with the Wolves, even taking their side during the Post-Armageddon conflict.

It's silly to assume that a few incidences can influence the relationship between two *massive* factions over the course of thousands of years, especially in a game where it's heavily implied (and encouraged) that the games take place at different points in the fluff.

At the end of the day, all Imperial factions are Imperials. They might not "get along" and they might even have power-struggles and whatnot, but they're still Human. It doesn't matter how much they hate each other, they'll always band together to fight xenos, traitors and daemons.

Good i haven't bought more ig as allies for my orkses yet. Though, i'll have to think what to do with the ones i got.

Feh, I just run everyone as AoC or BBs with everyone else, 'tis more balanced and the fluff rape can be handwaved with mind control and counts as.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see the problem with all Imperial armies being battle-brothers with one another. Grey Knights murdered some Sisters? Space Wolves and the Inquisition have come to blows? Who cares? These are all isolated incidences over the long view. Who knows how many times the GK and Sisters have gotten together just fine over the course of the Imperium's 10,000 year existence? Space Wolves and the Inquisition had no problem fighting together before the 1st war for Armageddon, and even afterwards the fluff makes note that there are Inquisitors who have no problem with the Wolves, even taking their side during the Post-Armageddon conflict.

It's silly to assume that a few incidences can influence the relationship between two *massive* factions over the course of thousands of years, especially in a game where it's heavily implied (and encouraged) that the games take place at different points in the fluff.

At the end of the day, all Imperial factions are Imperials. They might not "get along" and they might even have power-struggles and whatnot, but they're still Human. It doesn't matter how much they hate each other, they'll always band together to fight xenos, traitors and daemons.

Fluff-wise? It's dumb.

Game balance-wise?

Why is it dumb?

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I personally despise the army and laugh whenever something bad befalls it, from an objective standpoint, the new allies matrix appears to once again give the middle finger to Tyranids players.

call me when another race learns to speak nid

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it dumb?

For aforementioned reasons previously. And as a former Space Wolf player, no, they wouldn't play nice with the Inquisition. They're still Legion strong defying all mandates on the matter. The Dark Angels would also not pal it up with Inquisition.

The Sisters are now Battle Brother/Allies of Convenience with any psyker and his brother, including the Eldar. What about Abhor the Witch is hard to reckon with?

Yea, it's silly made up man-play-time-fantasies, but if they're just going to disregard the fiction when it's convenient, then it's going to kill any suspension of disbelief.

And, let me reiterate, the game balance...

 TheKbob wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it dumb?

For aforementioned reasons previously. And as a former Space Wolf player, no, they wouldn't play nice with the Inquisition. They're still Legion strong defying all mandates on the matter. The Dark Angels would also not pal it up with Inquisition.

The Sisters are now Battle Brother/Allies of Convenience with any psyker and his brother, including the Eldar. What about Abhor the Witch is hard to reckon with?

People are applying a definition to "battle-brothers" that doesn't actually exist. . Two factions being BBs with one another does not mean that they "get along" or "play nice" with one another. Two factions being battle-brothers does not mean that they invite each other to their kids' birthdays and go to bars after work. The different tiers of allies is a gauge of two factions ability to work together in a professional manner. Can they communicate well enough to formulate strategies or coordinate strategies? Do they have working knowledge and familiarity with their allies' units capabilities and limits? Can they trust the faction they're working with to not shoot them in the back while they're charging the enemy? That's the point of the ally tiers. Logain Grimnar might not like Sisters of Battle, but he could probably lead them to victory in combat if it came down to it, and trust them to not set his ass on fire when his back is turned. Could he do the same with a Cabal of Dark Eldar, though? Probably not. Tyranids? Tau? No.

That's the point of Battle-Brothers. How well the factions get along outside of combat is irrelevant. They're all Imperials, working for the God-Emperor, and when they find themselves surrounded by a horde of daemons or pushing back Hive Leviathan, it's expected that they're going to nut up and pool their resources like the professional soldiers they are.

 TheKbob wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it dumb?

For aforementioned reasons previously. And as a former Space Wolf player, no, they wouldn't play nice with the Inquisition. They're still Legion strong defying all mandates on the matter. The Dark Angels would also not pal it up with Inquisition.

But the Inquisition isn't a single, coherent entity. It's a extremely lose organisation made up of wildly different guys having nothing more in common than the well being of the human race. How this is done, through what means and what kind of end result can warry as much as there are inquisitors. So for every inquisitor wanting to purge the space wolves as abominations or suspecting the dark angels for heresy there is one thinking these chapters make a bloody fine job in keeping mankind safe from the heretic and the mutant. And you can't realy become a chapter master without being aware of this fact and and using it to the chapter's benefit, ie. working with those inquisitors that see these chapters in a favorable light.

And this is why inquisitors as battle brothers make sense, because the ones you ally with are the ones that like you not the ones wanting to purge you, they in turn are represented by any Inquisitors used by your opponent when you play.

No cheese combos for Orks here, but that seems appropriate anyway.

Nice to see Tau (and Eldar, I suppose) getting hit where it hurts - right in the cheese.

 ionusx wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I personally despise the army and laugh whenever something bad befalls it, from an objective standpoint, the new allies matrix appears to once again give the middle finger to Tyranids players.

call me when another race learns to speak nid

Mind control solves all problems!

Just ask this guy.

Was it said anywhere , if a warforged army can take battlebroter unbound ally ?

I like it.

It's much better than previously, where in a supposedly grimdark universe everyone was best buddies and there were more TauDar combinations than Imperium armies.

A bit sad that my only choice as crons are orks, CSM and Tau.
Ah well, time to bust out the plague marines again...

From a gameplay point of view, I like it. It opens up some interesting options in terms of allies for my Sisters ("interesting" meaning combinations that look cool as well as combinations deisgned to roflstomp everything).

I also like it overall in terms of fluff. All of the Imperial forces have become suitably xenophobic and intolerant, and the other forces look more or less correct too. Though I do agree that all Imperial forces being BBs probably isn't the best reflection of the fluff. And in terms of gameplay, it opens up minor instances of "weirdness", like a Space Marine being inspired by the hymns of a priest when Space Marines aren't into the Imperial Creed. But still, I suppose it can be justified to some extent with the Imperium "closing ranks" in the face of a looming threat.

(I know that the above assessment was rather Imperium-centric, but they're my main focus as a 40K fan. I accpet that fans of other armies might have their grievances with it).

Oh, and I almost forgot! Templars and Sisters can now be Battle Brothers at last!

 Psienesis wrote:
and Space Wolves BB with the Inquisition

They were already Battle Bros before this new allies matrix, though. But that's probably more to do with the Inquisition functioning as an allies army than an accurate representation of fluff.

 greyknight12 wrote:
No one here thinks that the company that brought you Codex: Legion of the Damned and Codex: IG Stormtroopers won't try to sell you a digital codex for traitor guard, an army list which has in some form existed in the past?

Well... For whatever it's worth, they did once say that they viewed traitor Guard as "not different enough from regular Guard" to warrent a codex. But now that I think of it, a supplement-type thing might be plausible, were they to go for it.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
People are applying a definition to "battle-brothers" that doesn't actually exist. . Two factions being BBs with one another does not mean that they "get along" or "play nice" with one another.

It does constitute trust, though, right? And some sort of respect? And in that, I can understand the criticisms of it. The Sisters and Wolves, for example, aren't going to have a great deal of trust nor respect. The Sisters are intolerant, orderly and zealous and the Space Wolves are anti-authority, rowdy, and look even more mutated than the average Space Marine. There's also that incident where the Sisters attempted to invade Fenris. So yeah, with examples like that, I'd definetely say that some of the Imperials would make more sense as allies of convinience at least.

N-n-n-n-nidfest!

Chaos and Daemons sitting in a tree
Ignoring my new IG army.

D:<

Got the damn army to give me some fire support.

CSM = Fked again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gee Dubs be like "but humanity's faith is incorruptible!"

CSM be like: "Just fking kill us off already then, you damn pansies!"

I'm really glad the allies matrix isn't a joke this time, but I'm a little worried about our Eldar overlords.

From wrote:
I'm really glad the allies matrix isn't a joke this time, but I'm a little worried about our Eldar overlords.

If by "not a joke" you mean ridiculously biased in favor of the Imperium, then yes.

Looks like Chaos and the Xenos are going to be taking it up the ass this edition.

Sigh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Chaos and Daemons sitting in a tree
Ignoring my new IG army.

D:<

Got the damn army to give me some fire support.

CSM = Fked again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gee Dubs be like "but humanity's faith is incorruptible!"

CSM be like: "Just fking kill us off already then, you damn pansies!"

Hey, got room over there in the "Fked again" list for the recently screwed Xeno armies who aren't elves?

The only Xeno army who gained anything was the Tyranids, who can now spam themselves more. Which is still akin to a bandage on the festering wound that is the 6e codex.

Prefer it greatly to the last one, because at least the BB's make sense now.

I do wish Orks were DA with Imperium though. Would help making up for a lack of BB and only one AOC

Literally only Tyranids have it worse than us. And at least Tyranids can kick some ass

 Kain wrote:

From wrote:
I'm really glad the allies matrix isn't a joke this time, but I'm a little worried about our Eldar overlords.

If by "not a joke" you mean ridiculously biased in favor of the Imperium, then yes.

Looks like Chaos and the Xenos are going to be taking it up the ass this edition.

Sigh.

No by "not a joke" I meant "not a joke" maybe we will start to see more traditional Warhammer armies

I want to see if the wording/definitions for BB/AoC/DA/CtA are different than 6th.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I want to see if the wording/definitions for BB/AoC/DA/CtA are different than 6th.

well you have a few more days to wait for that brother.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
(...)
At the end of the day, all Imperial factions are Imperials. They might not "get along" and they might even have power-struggles and whatnot, but they're still Human. It doesn't matter how much they hate each other, they'll always band together to fight xenos, traitors and daemons.

For me, that is is the definition of "Allies of Convenience".

Imagine you are a general or something and one of your subordinate commanders come in and inform you that he won a battle, but he allied with X. There are four options about why:
1) Why not? They are our trusted fiends. It is natural for us to help them. They are our brothers.
2) I know they are jerks, I know we cannot trust them, but it was convenient. Perhaps we could have won without them, but it was easier this way.
3) The situation was dire. We desperately need to win the battle. I had no other option. I know I am tainted, and I will submit myself to punishment for this unacceptable cursed alliance.
4) You did what?? Heresy: BLAM!

I didn´t get it when people defend the Tau-SM BB abomination thing saying that there had been ocassions were they joined to fight a common enemy out of desperation. That is Desperate Allies.


Game wise, I think it simplifies it to have all the Imperials being BB. It is not fluff-friendly, but I have seen worse. The same goes for Eldar and Dark Eldar. If they do not trust each other they should not be Battle Brothers, they should be Allies of Convenience.

The matrix is better than the last. Only three major WTF.
- No "chaos+IG=Traitor guard" makes the Chaos Gods cry.
- Tau and Necrons Allies of Convenience??
- Chaos and Necrons Allies of Convenience??

By the way, I don´t like armies being BB with themselves. To all effects that´s another change to the FOC. I like the FOC. I don´t like how they are making it easier to spam the broken units. I mean, if you really want 4 options of something, just play 2000+ points. Do you really need four times the same unit while playing 1500 pts? And two forces from the same armies will still be AoC: two Adeptus Astartes Chapters, two Eldar Craftworlds, two Ork Clans, two IG Regiments still distrust each other. The only exception should be Tyranids: first for balance, second because of the background.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Prefer it greatly to the last one, because at least the BB's make sense now.

I do wish Orks were DA with Imperium though. Would help making up for a lack of BB and only one AOC

Literally only Tyranids have it worse than us. And at least Tyranids can kick some ass

Who knows, maybe the new Ork Book will make Taudar, Daemons, Crons, and AM look tame in it's cheese factor.

 jifel wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
While I personally despise the army and laugh whenever something bad befalls it, from an objective standpoint, the new allies matrix appears to once again give the middle finger to Tyranids players.

Clearly you missed the buff that is Tyranids can actually ally with some!!!

It just so happens to be more 'Nids. Take that as you will, but we can now say that Tyranids aren't totally screwed (3 Flyrants without Double FoC anyone?).

Yeah, I think Tyranids have improved markedly with the new Alliance chart...
1. We now get free slots. Seriously, who wasn't already take 3 troops with Tyranids?
2. Most of the Battle brother combos have been reduced. 2 out of the big 3 (Taudar and TauMarines, not D/Eldar) have been nerfed.
3. Imperial Armies BB will increase, but usually there is less cheese. Also, it will all be to include Psychic Buffs, which Nids can deny with (hopefully, FAQ pending) greater ease than others. No more Buffmanders!

Where the rumors are at the moment I really do hope SITW gets a errata to be more than a LD modifier. I mean, we warp the warp!

Edit; I would agree with most BB and AoC ratings. Most OP issues with the matrix can be fixed with just the removal of the BB's level.

Imagine you are a general or something and one of your subordinate commanders come in and inform you that he won a battle, but he allied with X. There are four options about why:
1) Why not? They are our trusted fiends. It is natural for us to help them. They are our brothers.
2) I know they are jerks, I know we cannot trust them, but it was convenient. Perhaps we could have won without them, but it was easier this way.
3) The situation was dire. We desperately need to win the battle. I had no other option. I know I am tainted, and I will submit myself to punishment for this unacceptable cursed alliance.
4) You did what?? Heresy: BLAM!

This literally had me laughing to tears. That last line was priceless. But i agree.

All I'm wanting to know about allies is can you take Battle-Forged primary with unbound allies