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Durham NC has a problem right now with race and gentrification. It is being aggressively gentrified by hipsters and house prices are skyrocketing and displacing minorities. They also had a recent issue where a handcuffed latino youth was shot in the back while in police custody and the police 'claimed' he had a gun.
This particular location is a scooby doo ghost town of all abandon auto garages which was turned into really trendy high-priced restaurants, bars and clubs with food trucks outside. In an area of high minorities, there isn't a single one to be seen anywhere in this area.
So I know in this area there is a culture war and two isolated societies and race relations are very tense there, because in 2-3 years a majority of those run down houses will have new occupants and be high-end flipped trendy houses.
They almost had 'burn down the city' riots over this.
Trying to figure out what your post has to do with this thread. Did you just excuse the robbers or the stupidity of the barbeque owner?
EDIT: for the record Texas barbeque rules, NC barbeque drools!
The issue is the city has a large influx of affluent white hipsters with leftist attitudes and are displacing and marginalizing poor minorities in the process. There is a one-sided culture war as these neighborhoods gentrify and displace poor minorities. There have a been a lot of crimes against these establishments which are seen as 'getting back at the white people displacing and discriminating against against minorities'. This particular area is a prime example of a location. There is a lot of dissatisfaction and violence occurring because of it in that area... And it is only 'one sided' because one of the sides has money to throw around and an affluent college which is helping to support it. Arbitrary selectively enforced dress codes are the name of the game in all of these places down there.
The whole 'sign' is a non-story and the crimes themselves touch on a much larger issue of that areas racial issues currently going on in that town. They were not robbed for being a gun-free location, they were robbed for being a gentrification hipster white social area in a high minority/low income part of town. The only reason this is even national news was because this was a hoity toity place. It is the robbery equivalent of a 'white girl gone missing'.
It is a really nice urban renewal... They did a really nice job... They turned a scooby doo ghost town into something nice. The problem is it is driving prices up, and people 'out'. And these places have sometimes have selective dress codes which keep 'specific' people out. "no baggie clothes, flat brimmed hats, untucked teeshirts or colored bananas"
Duke is super close too.
Race relations are strained. The triangle of Durham/Raleigh is basically going through what is described as some as an 'ethnic cleansing', so ti is not a good thing when people feel that way and there has been a lot of what has been called 'payback' crimes because of it. My friends got thrown out of a cab because one of them made a comment about 'These houses are so nice, for what I make in DC I could probably buy 3 of them and renovate them and then live off the rent!' The cabbie got mad and threw them out of the cab.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Gentrification is a good thing, I dont get why people hate it.
Also, I like hipsters. Who else can I gawk at for wearing a scarf and fedora and a trench coat
Crossbows. Crossbows aren't guns, can be pre-loaded, and can pierce through a quite a bit of (Non-Military) armor.
And they are intimidating as feth.
YEAH but unless you have the right feats they take a full round action to reload and then you cant do a full attack action. Guns only take a free action to load.
This is sounding more and more like a Bundy variation to me.
My Argument as a Sociologist is the Gentrification is often a force for good, even if some displacement happens. It is such slow process that people have time to adapt and if they dont they leave. That these new resturants and cafes require people to man them. Also, there are reasons Section 8 and Hope 4 housing try to mix classes from welfare to upper middle class. They are able to help the poorer classes with a better class of living.
That and I hate poor and black people according to this one girl in my class for arguing this
Well you probably could prevent it if you were particularly motivated to do so.
I imagine people's problems with it is because you're essentially saying "There is something wrong with the way you live your life." which is reasonably offensive at the best of times. The thing Relapse linked about Gentrification makes sense...
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My wife and I prefer the company of people with a similar social status as us and want our child to grow up in a safe social environment. Therefore, we're in favor of gentrification and all processes going along with it.
Gotta love the whining of that comedian. I don't see how his hatred of gentrification is any different than other forms of immigration.
There are new people coming in so let's hate them. The big difference between this and the illegal immigration to the states (other than legality) is the color of people's skin. It just feels more like 'Hate Whitey' regardless of what they do.
Let me preface what I'm about to say by saying I am not a college graduate, I come from a "conservative" background, and I have always found the idea of "hipsters" in general insufferable. What I'm about to say is merely based of what I've seen happen in Lexington Kentucky as personal experience. I have no idea if this is how it works everywhere.
Think about it from the point of view of a person who isn't a college student/graduate with a lot of disposable income.
You're living in a fairly low cost neighborhood, and you're barely scraping by. Then a bunch of "hipster" joints pop up. Yeah, it's cool for a while. The town starts to come back a bit, it gets cleaned up, money is coming back, taxes are coming in, but what are you getting out of it? Property values go up, you're put in a financial strain, depending on the area you can get a very strong vibe of "you're not welcome here" from the new arrivals, and if the places are actively trying to keep you out through certain policies and dress codes, you don't get anything from it. The kind of people gentrification brings in probably aren't going to be interested in the few surviving businesses still hanging on. Instead, they bring in their favorites from where they came from. The local cafe gets run out by a starbucks. The town grocery gets run out by Meijer, Walmart, and Costco. The blues and country bars get shut out by poetry halls, "folk" music, and craft beer places. So on and so forth. All they want is your town or neighborhood's name, the old looking buildings, and the bragging rights that they "cleaned up" a historic area.
In the situation like the OP is describing, I would hate it. True hipsters are insufferable to the extreme, and whenever a large population of them appears in the neighborhood it becomes a social blight that can really hurt lower income people. Or as one local put it, "their heads are so far up their ass, they haven't seen the sun in years." I've worked in the music scene for years, and got to meet a lot of them and the places they like to hang out at. They like to think they're good and all, but they don't "save" a community by moving their businesses in. They kill it off and replace it off with their own. It's like watching an invasive species come in and choke off the native wildlife.
Gentrification does not save people who are of a lower class or social position. It merely runs them off and replaces the original group of people with a new one. Jamal or Clyde who were living in the apartment complex aren't suddenly going to get new jobs working for the IT firm down the road, start wearing collared shirts, and become "well adjusted members of society". They're going to get displaced to the next cheapest area to live while the "good Samaritans" pat themselves on the back for cleaning up a bad neighborhood.
The idea of cleaning up and reclaiming a neighborhood is all well and good, but I've rarely seen it work the way it's supposedly intended. At best, I've seen some of the small towns in Bourbon county clean up their downtown areas and bring back some local business, but they still have trailer parks and ghettos just a few blocks away. They're just kept off to the side, where tourists and visitors won't notice, like the town is ashamed and wants to hide them.
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Eh, if these people want to renovate a broken down part of the town then why not. It would be nice if the government could put up protection so that people don't find themselves suddenly being priced out of their own homes but ultimately business is business. People have a right to live where they want and do with their property as they please (Within reasonable limits).
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The problem with gentrification is that it generally doesn't benefit the local established populace. When 'agents' of gentrification (that is to say, business interests, hipster populations, or what-have-you) show up at a new neighborhood, generally instead of utilizing the local labor force and community, they 'import' employees, personnel, etc. to the area, these imports don't really have loyalty to the established businesses which, generally speaking, will not have the 'scene' needed to draw the new arrivals to them as consumers, nor will they have the available resources to 'revitalize' themselves into something more appealing, resulting in established businesses getting driven out of business and eventually replaced.
The end result of this process is that, yes, the area in question is 'gentrified' and revitalized, and beautified, etc. and the school system and local economy and housing markets improve, and the crime rate is drastically reduced, etc. but all these great things only happen for the new people to the area (or those existing inhabitants who, for whatever reason, have managed to hold on and survive in that area). The existing population remains impoverished, uneducated, and lacking in opportunity, and whats worse they are now displaced and must find a new area to settle in, which in turn degrades that areas property values, etc. and basically sets the stage for the cycle to repeat itself.
Gentrification can be a good thing, the problem is nobody is going about it the right way. Instead of 'importing' your workforce and drawing yuppies/hipsters to an area to revitalize it, gentrification needs to occur from 'within'. The established population needs to be given opportunities to, they need to become stakeholders in the process, they need to be trained and educated somehow so that they can reap the benefits of gentrification, improve their own lives, and rise in economic standing along with the property values of the area so that they aren't forced out of their own homes.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Though i feel not improving an area just to keep rent low for people that can only afford it is awful, Anything to oppose hipsters is fine by me. they ruined the fedora and many other things.
You know what pisses me off? That they're not even wearing a Fedora. They're wearing Trilbys the idiots.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
I wonder if this is as big of a issue, potentially in the UK.
Truth be told, I don't think I'd actually recognise a hipster if one well walked up to me and did something very hipster-ish... (That got away from me a bit there....)
Yeah, I'll be turning on ignorance mode again... In any case, I'd be guessing that Council housing helps avoid the worst of the negatives of these?
The local shopping area, containing many family run shops, takeaways and the like, has long been courted by the major supermarkets to be bulldozed and replaced with a larger, more modern superstore. (Well, superstore in British terms....) I presume these businesses will end up being paid substantial cash if their encouraged to move out before the bulldozers come in.
There is a valid distinct difference between 'urban renewal' and 'gentrification'.
One improves a community for everyone, one improves it only for wealthy residence, usually at the expense of the poor and in turn, minorities.
A good description, because I don't think you know what the term really means when you are like "hell yes! gentrification is fantastic!"
Gentrification is a shift in an urban community toward wealthier residents and/or businesses and increasing property values.[1] Gentrification is typically the result of investment in a community by real estate development businesses, local government, or community activists, and can often spur economic development, attract business, and lower crime rates. In addition to these potential benefits, gentrification can lead to population migration, which involves poorer residents being displaced by wealthier newcomers.
In a community undergoing gentrification, the average income increases and average family size decreases. Poorer pre-gentrification residents who are unable to pay increased rents or property taxes[dubious – discuss] may be driven out. Often old industrial buildings are converted to residences and shops. New businesses, which can afford increased commercial rent, cater to a more affluent base of consumers—further increasing the appeal to higher income migrants and decreasing the accessibility to the poor.[2][3]
Political action is often the community's response, either to promote the gentrification or oppose economic eviction.[4] Local governments may favor gentrification because of the increased tax base associated with the new high-income residents, as well as other perceived benefits of moving poor people.
Basically politicians are motivated by gaining more power via taxes... and the people who would be 'upset' are evicted before they can vote you out of office. This is where local governments will get flak from state and national politicians who represent both the renewed area and the displaced people.
The thing is, often along with the economic gentrification, you see things which target minorities. Things like 'selectively enforced dress codes' and 'overzealous security harassing select people for loitering'. Not only can the poor not economically be able to exist, the ones who attempt to are harassed, discouraged and made to be 'unwelcome'.
Well-done urban renewal can increase quality of an area, reduce crime and help everyone out as long as the higher-end of the housing market doesn't have a problem associating with poor people, sharing a shopping center with them, having restaurants which don't have 10$ beers and 30$ hamburgers... Which they do, which is why it happens.
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Like most things it's has some good things and bad things about it, also hipster hate is stupid sure their fashion sense is laughable at times but that's no reason to hate something.
MrMoustaffa wrote: and if the places are actively trying to keep you out through certain policies and dress codes, you don't get anything from it. The kind of people gentrification brings in probably aren't going to be interested in the few surviving businesses still hanging on. Instead, they bring in their favorites from where they came from. The local cafe gets run out by a starbucks. The town grocery gets run out by Meijer, Walmart, and Costco. The blues and country bars get shut out by poetry halls, "folk" music, and craft beer places. So on and so forth. All they want is your town or neighborhood's name, the old looking buildings, and the bragging rights that they "cleaned up" a historic area.
At best, I've seen some of the small towns in Bourbon county clean up their downtown areas and bring back some local business, but they still have trailer parks and ghettos just a few blocks away. They're just kept off to the side, where tourists and visitors won't notice, like the town is ashamed and wants to hide them.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Gentrification can be a good thing, the problem is nobody is going about it the right way. Instead of 'importing' your workforce and drawing yuppies/hipsters to an area to revitalize it, gentrification needs to occur from 'within'. The established population needs to be given opportunities to, they need to become stakeholders in the process, they need to be trained and educated somehow so that they can reap the benefits of gentrification, improve their own lives, and rise in economic standing along with the property values of the area so that they aren't forced out of their own homes.
I agree at least with some of the sentiment in these posts... I absolutely am OK with any restaurant or business enforcing some form of dress code.. dudes walking like penguins because their pants are literally around their knees is fething all kinds of stupid. And yeah, part of the problem with outsiders revitalizing an area is that they oftentimes don't bother in the least to talk to any of the locals who've been there for years and know a few things about the area.. I mean, that mom and pop breakfast joint that's been open for 30+ years? Well, if your douchey hipster friends would just try it, you'd find that it's the best damn breakfast place in the county and support them. Eventually, that mom and pop shop will be able to jump on that revitalization "bandwagon"
And honestly MrMoustaffa, if you've been around the country... EVERYONE hides their trailer parks
Cheesecat wrote: Like most things it's has some good things and bad things about it, also hipster hate is stupid sure their fashion sense is laughable at times but that's no reason to hate something.
I think we can all agree that people from all walks of life look like witches in certain fashion items. Hipster has been so overused that I couldn't even say what an actual Hipster is meant to be.
I dont get why this is now so accociated with "hipsters"...
the process is quite widspread over many "clicks" or niches of society that its really not due to one group over another to any real degree.
But other then that, its a 100% good process, thats 100% unavoidable, and shouldnt be avoided, even if we could.
Giving up improving a neighbourhood, simply to maintain the status quo, which is already basically "perpetual poverty", so that the impovershed in the area can continue to be... impovershed.. is just silly.
If you are poor, and suddenly your property values/home values go up enough that the tax increase puts you out of home... thats stupid to complain about, you can sell your home for far more then you paid for it and come out ahead.
Rents might go up slightly, but unless they actually upgrade the rental building, they cannot go to high or everyone leaves, and the owner has an empty building.
change is inevitable, gotta adapt... still im sure some people will decry this as some kind of attack on the poor.
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Not to mention there will be better paying local jobs now.
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I don't see how anyone could claim that gentrification is 100% good MrMoustaffa and/or nkelsch's posts on the subject or having thought about it for more than 5 minutes. That being said I'm not saying it's completely bad either as it does improve the place in many ways although I still think
there's better methods for improving an area.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/23 19:41:21
I suppose it does get more complicated when it comes to renting. - Or even renting shops, like in my own example.
There I think my thought process from what? 20 minutes ago? breaks down. Leases aren't renewed, the people who have been running the shop for years have to move on to find a new place to rent from and now... The owner can charge those people wanting to turn it into a trendy wine bar a good whack more.
Wages don't go up... People are still paid minimum wage to serve these establishments... the Chipolte in the renewed 'town center' doesn't pay more than the Chipolte in a cheaper part of town. All it does is force the people who work there to drive farther to get to work.
And often the rent goes up drastically because they evict whole buildings, tear down 30-year old apartments and replace them with condos. Rent goes up 3-5 times the original amount, not 50 bucks a month.
Some mom and pops who are lucky enough to own get to enjoy the new income... but almost no one anywhere OWNS their building. Commercial real estate is pretty depressing. In my area, like 2 major firms own 90% of the properties. They literally own everything. Anyone who DID own probably cashed out to developers during the rebuilding of the area and is no longer running a business. Those who rent simply either get skyrocketing commercial rent, or the landlord refuses to renew the lease.
And people are not complaining about their taxes going up. Most areas have 'homestead' taxes which limit property tax increases for residents who live in a house. It is the renters (which almost all of the low income are) being instantly displaced by closing an entire building for extensive renovations or demolishing, or house rentals which go through the roof.
Here is an example in my area right now. I bought my house in 2000 for 100k. My mortgage payment was like 500$ When I bought it, a 3-bedroom townhome in this neighborhood was renting for 800$ a month.
When I sold in 2011, my neighbor was paying 1850$ a month and was leaving because it was going up 250$ the next lease.
Around the corner, they are building 600k townhomes which mean these older townhomes are being flipped and rented for obscene amounts. A 1 bedroom apartment down the street is now 1700$.
All it has done is push everyone who can't afford another 10 miles out from DC, or sideways in the festering ghetto called PG county. And all the people being displaced get no vote because once you are out of your house, you are not a voter in that area anymore.
I own my home. I make out like a bandit. There are a helluva lot of people who are not even being given a chance and are basically being economically cleansed from the area. You are basically throwing crabs in boiling water and saying "learn to adapt!"
A lot of it is 'people at the top' don't like to see or interact with 'people at the bottom'. I have been to school board meetings where people were upset about having to be bused to a holding school during renovations because "they don't want their kids, in that part of the county associating with those types of people". They also blocked government housing for government workers (police, teachers, firemen, county employees) because 'those' types of people are not what they want in their areas. They sue for soccer and basket ball courts to be torn out and replaced with horse parks and tennis courts. They are using their money and legal maneuvering to not just gentrify but eradicate what they have deemed 'unwanted elements' which boils down to poor minorities.
You can do urban renewal without ethnically cleansing the poor.
The only reason why 'hipsters' are being talked about was the other thread, Durham is becoming the 'Austin' of the east coast and is basically being flooded by hipsters.
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My Argument as a Sociologist is the Gentrification is often a force for good, even if some displacement happens. It is such slow process that people have time to adapt and if they dont they leave. That these new resturants and cafes require people to man them. Also, there are reasons Section 8 and Hope 4 housing try to mix classes from welfare to upper middle class. They are able to help the poorer classes with a better class of living.
That and I hate poor and black people according to this one girl in my class for arguing this
I think you are absolutely on the wrong side of this. Gentrification is pretty clearly a force that only deepens racial-cultural divides, and encourages a system of racism. While there might be some kind of debate in a sociology class on this, in reality, there is no argument. It's a fact.
I think you need to take a moment and examine where you're coming from on this. I understand that it's an issue without easy solutions, and coming from a background of white privilege, it's always going to be hard to acknowledge when we're participating in a racist system, even if we are not ourselves racists.
If you'd like some further reading on this and other related topics, check out this book.
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So poor people are a race now?
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