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 Thud wrote:
Wave Serpents became super-scoring, though... And they can still just stay behind terrain for a cover save. And if needed, they can now jink on turn one.

Hardly a blow.

Tend to agree - they still have all their previous OP awesome firepower, just now if it looks like one of them might take a pounding its even harder to kill now and in exchange has to snap shot only - next turn..........

Plus as noted they now become super scoring units - seems like the cheese has grown more powerful?

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.

I'm not sure exactly what the old rules were, but now you only get a reroll if the Strength is higher than Toughness. The good news is that you make the (4+) to wound roll unless you would normally get a better roll.

So if a plaguebearer attacks a gaunt the plaguebearer (S4vs.T3) wounds on 3's and rerolls, compared to before which was 4's rerolling.

It makes plague marines a little less disgusting against T4 models in melee. The GUO will wound most everything on 2's with rerolls compared to 4's with rerolls.

 Truth118 wrote:

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.

I'm not sure exactly what the old rules were, but now you only get a reroll if the Strength is higher than Toughness. The good news is that you make the (4+) to wound roll unless you would normally get a better roll.

So if a plaguebearer attacks a gaunt the plaguebearer (S4vs.T3) wounds on 3's and rerolls, compared to before which was 4's rerolling.

It makes plague marines a little less disgusting against T4 models in melee. The GUO will wound most everything on 2's with rerolls compared to 4's with rerolls.

Oh thank goodness I thought he meant that Poison was back to flat 2-4+, even if your strength was better.

Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

STOP capitalizing RANDOM words, do I NEED to make this a running THING because it is really PAINFUL to read.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

How does Overwatch work with the new shooting rules - when do you measure range (if you do) and does wall of death still work as before?

Sorry, just my way of bolding out important words, was not aware its disturbing some.

Andway, that plus the "challenge spillover" might be enough to turn assault into a viable strategy again. (with terrain charge range changes too)

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

Bobug wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

Taking into account to-hit rolls and without tank hunter & markerlights factored I make it ~8% chance of one-shot killing an AV14 vehicle as opposed to ~14% in 6th ed. So that seems quite a drop in effectiveness, if my maths is wrong I do apologise

Why would you take out tank hunter? Does it not work the same way still (re-roll penetration and damage right?) I might be playing it wrong. Never actually bought the 6e book and just played by what my friends said since they had the book.

Your maths are indeed right for the situation you described. I just added in the tank hunter re-rolls and ignored to-hit.

Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

thats what I heard too?

 Havok210 wrote:
Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

When you have a roving band of 10 Wraithguard that cannot be effectively damaged and buffed out the butt along with 3 Wraithknights and some Wave Serpents/Warp Spiders, etc. etc., you'll be doing pretty good. Just throw Eldrad into that unit and it gets even more gross.

A unit of 10 guys with Distort Flamers that are twin-linked, fortuned, and are immune to blast weapons/templates themselves and can only be hit on 6s? How about the Wraithblades with axes?

YIKES.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

O'Vesa stops working because you cannot join the three ICs (Buffy the Commander, O'Vesa, and Farsight) to a second riptide to maximize Buffy's Bonus'.

So you could technically still run it, it's just much less effective.

Hes probably factoring in a crisis bomb without a buffmander. Tau only get tankhunter with a PEN (Puretide Engram Nerochip, or however its spelled) brought by a buffmander or a shas'ui sacrificing one of his 3 loadout slots and his shooting.
Though i think his numbers are off. AP1 will still explode a non-open topped vehicle on a 5+ and quite frankly shooting one crisis suit at one vehicle is a dumb idea, even with the buffmander. I always double up on one of them, so i got 4 fusions pelting one and 2 on another. Funny part is usually the solo shooter manages to pop his target before the tagteam does lol.
And yes i know tau also have tankhunter with Longstrike, but thats not on crisis suits so i ignored that.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

When you have a roving band of 10 Wraithguard that cannot be effectively damaged and buffed out the butt along with 3 Wraithknights and some Wave Serpents/Warp Spiders, etc. etc., you'll be doing pretty good. Just throw Eldrad into that unit and it gets even more gross.

A unit of 10 guys with Distort Flamers that are twin-linked, fortuned, and are immune to blast weapons/templates themselves and can only be hit on 6s? How about the Wraithblades with axes?

YIKES.

Don't forget protect for a 2+ save and free shrouded from the spiritseer, because feth weight of fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

O'Vesa stops working because you cannot join the three ICs (Buffy the Commander, O'Vesa, and Farsight) to a second riptide to maximize Buffy's Bonus'.

So you could technically still run it, it's just much less effective.

Ah that does take quite a bit of bite out of it.

^ Would make sense. Oh the wonders of discussing (semi)technical matters over the internet. Two people talking about two different situations without realizing it.

I will admit I never really tried the deep striking crisis suit approach. With my local meta it's more advantageous for me to use EWO and have them be an interceptor platform. Plasma/fusion/EWO all the way, with a couple gun drones for more dakka and wound sponging!

The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

 TheKbob wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

Model a goatee on the inquisition Coteaz, because he's clearly the evil twin.

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

Model a goatee on the inquisition Coteaz, because he's clearly the evil twin.

I shall call him "Broteaz" lol

On the note of the Farsight supp, i imagine the IC rule would result like dementedwombat said otherwise it would make 0 sense, even to GW lol.

However theres another part of that suppliment that needs a FAQ because the way i interpret it with the new psyker rules seems rather...broken lol

Talisman of Arthas Moloch. 25pt signature system that gives the bearer a 5++ and his unit PLUS any unit in 12" from the bearer roll four D6 for deny the witch attempts instead of one, taking the highest.

The way i see this affecting the new Deny rules, for every warp i expend to try to cancel one of yours i roll 4D6. Thats just insane lol. Obviously cant use it if youre buffing yourself since its still considered a modifier, but if youre nuking me and i need to nullify 3 warp charges to cancel it...im throwing 4 to cancel each 1 lol.

Previously it wasnt THAT broken because in the end its still 1 attempt. Depending on the situation, i could have a potential 6 attempts in this 4D6 fashion lol

Wonder Twins Power ACTIVATE:

Form Of... GOUDA!

My guess with the talisman is you will get the 4 dice for the price of one, but only within that bubble. Needs to be FAQ'd something fierce, but that would make sense to me (considering Tau have 0 psykers, this offsets that loss somewhat)

For my armies:

CSM get quite a shot in the arm. Their access to Psyker disciplines is REALLY better, and they can bring lots of psykers between sorcerers, 1kSons and their demon pals. Daemon Princes became amazing Malefic psykers. Also, it pretty much takes an Icarus or a Vendetta to simply blow a Helldrake out of the sky; otherwise, just keep glancing it and hoping it does not regenerate.

Oblits and even (ugh) mutilators can get some interesting buffs from Malefic daemonology (Hello, 3++ Tzeentch Mutilators/Oblits!).

Dark Eldar: Lost the automatic Jink, but now they can jink on turn 1 if they lose the roll-off. They have tons of AP2 anti-tank so the sturdier vehicles don't affect them much. CC still blows, though. Most of their buffs come from being pals with Eldar, so no they can put their scoring/killy warriors in safe Wave Serpents and let Banshees/Scorpions ride those open-topped Raiders.

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

All Jinking models that have heavy firepower have been hit, not just the Wave Serpent. I'm thinking more in terms of Eldar Jetbikers. Manage to fire off enough fire power at them and they'll be forced to jink, in which they'll then have to spend the whole game jumping around shooting snap shots and having to jink to stop incoming shots, or hide in order to block LOS and waste a turn of effectiveness. I know they can move in the assault phase, and that'll help them avoiding jinking in the first place, but all you need to do is establish LOS on their hidey-hole. Their scoring effectiveness hasn't reduced, they can take objectives from non-troops, but if you go second, those Eldar won't want to come close enough to contest an objective, especially since if it's not troops on that objective it'll be something tough and nasty that can't just be shot off it with ease (tanks, MC's, etc). I would take back-field objectives with heavy stuff you don't want getting too close. Mid-field objectives by units that can take enough firepower in response. And high-priority objectives by troop choices in a dedicated transport. Because the transport now can score like the troops inside it, there's no reason to get them out.

I just don't think Wave Serpents are better overall. Turbo-boosting/Moving flat out with fast vehicles no longer confers a bonus to your Jink. So it's a maximum 3+ cover save, including the vehicle upgrade thing that gives it plus 1 to cover saves. Considering Jink is now a 4+, that's the same as before. But to use that save, it has to forfeit it's hitting power. Yes, it might be "super-scoring". But honestly, wasn't the Wave Serpent always a priority target by those that knew what it could do ? Most of the time. dedicated transports in 6th edition weren't a priority target because the troops had to get OUT to capture objectives, the transport would just sit there, maybe helping to block LOS to the objective. The Wave Serpent bucked this trend, because of it's firepower and it's ability to take large amounts of firepower in return. So it was a priority target in 6th ed. But now, all dedicated transports are a threat, because they provide an essential layer of protection between your troops and any anti-infantry weapons, while providing the same scoring capability of a troop choice. Wave Serpents can do this too, but because of their higher points cost and effectiveness as a unit, they are still a priority target like before. But now, the Eldar player with his Serpents now has to deal with a lot more priority targets of their own, now that all transports provide a threat because of "super-scoring". Those opposing transports are cheaper, can survive more effectively than before because of the changed damage chart (and the Jink if they're skimmers). That Devilfish over there ? It now doesn't have to let the troops out to score, so now you have to either maneuver so you can hit the rear, or dedicate some S6-7, in order to finish it. That requires you to focus less on other units that were always a bigger threat , such as Riptides, Crisis, Broadsides, and so on, because if you leave it there, it will keep the objective.

These Dedicated transports have always been on the board, but for the same points they are now more dangerous. Wave Serpents were already dangerous, so they were already priority targets. Am i making sense...? There has been a massive shift in tactics with 7 ed. With everything scoring, and troops and their transports the best at it, it's going to require more thought about what units provide the greatest threat, as well as how you can position your own units to take advantage of the new rules. While you CAN hide the Wave Serpent away so, combined with it's survivabilty, it's so much harder to get it off the objective. But then you are hiding a large points investment, when your opponent has cheaper transports that are doing the same thing, at a lesser detriment to the overall firepower of the army. You hide away, now the troops inside the Serpent can't do anything, even if they get out, because of their short range guns. Your opponent's transports can jink to their hearts content, as they don't need the firepower, they can hide away as much as they want, because they are cheaper. I'm not sure if you can move the troops out of the Dedicated Transport and then move the vehicle elsewhere so you have two super-scoring units. But if you can. you've just dumped some incredibly fragile Eldar that can't contribute (again, because of their short ranged guns), when your opponent is likely to have troops that can survive more effectively, with longer range firepower (i think most troops have a longer range gun than Eldar Guardians).

I hope I got my point across. In my opinion, those transports that weren't as important before, now are integral to the strategy. Wave Serpents benefit too, but because they cost more, and because their Jink will remove the effectiveness of the firepower that you pay for, In my opinion, they just aren't as effective considering the new rules.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I Have to agree, Armies makes little sence in a system where you can mix and anything and everything you want with a (1 hq 1 troop) or (1 hq 2 troop, for more slots) tax. That with out mentioning unbound which is completely bonkers.

For instance, every imperial army will include Ezequiel, because for 150 points he is the best and cheapest lvl 3 you will get and the tax can simply be a scout unit which you can use to grab objectives. That or/and Tigurius which is a little bit more expensive but much more powerful.

You can also expect 1 inquistor and 3 (1 psiker and 2 acolites) in razorbacks in most armies as well. Since they add 3 units that will mostly resist most small arms fire, cap 3 objectives and bring you about 1 power dice each. Everything for 70 points a pop.

There you have in about 350 points 4 units that can cap, a lvl 3 psiker, and +6 total power dice. And we have not even touched the main detatchemnt yet.

These Dedicated transports have always been on the board, but for the same points they are now more dangerous. Wave Serpents were already dangerous, so they were already priority targets. Am i making sense...? There has been a massive shift in tactics with 7 ed. With everything scoring, and troops and their transports the best at it, it's going to require more thought about what units provide the greatest threat, as well as how you can position your own units to take advantage of the new rules. While you CAN hide the Wave Serpent away so, combined with it's survivabilty, it's so much harder to get it off the objective. But then you are hiding a large points investment, when your opponent has cheaper transports that are doing the same thing, at a lesser detriment to the overall firepower of the army. You hide away, now the troops inside the Serpent can't do anything, even if they get out, because of their short range guns.

Sorry but Don't see it - the Wave Serpent has huge advantages over the other transports - not only in survivability but in the fact that it shreds the opposite number - the damage chart is meaningless to it - as it glances other transports to death.

Your opponent's transports can jink to their hearts content, as they don't need the firepower, they can hide away as much as they want, because they are cheaper.

Er only if they are also skimmers - and even then I assume Jink is still a cover save - which guess what Wave Serpents ignore........... most transports will die horribly to those Wave Serpents that have not just dodged all the fire.........

I'm not sure if you can move the troops out of the Dedicated Transport and then move the vehicle elsewhere so you have two super-scoring units. But if you can. you've just dumped some incredibly fragile Eldar that can't contribute (again, because of their short ranged guns), when your opponent is likely to have troops that can survive more effectively, with longer range firepower (i think most troops have a longer range gun than Eldar Guardians).

Dire Avengers are not especially short ranged and "incredibly fragile" - compared to what - Dark Eldar Warriors? Imperial guard, Sororitas? And of course their guns are still pseudo rending........

Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.