7th Edition - preliminary army winners and losers

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**BoomWolf**

Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

**Deschenus Maximus**

BoomWolf wrote:
Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

Hahahah no.

Cost alot? You don't have to pay for them, you understand that, right?

Risky to attempt to bring for everyone but CD (who don't roll perils on any doubles like other armies) and Eldar (who have the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan and Ghosthelms)... hence why I singled out those two armies specifically.

It doesn't matter that they are not impressive. They are FREE, and you can summon a ****ton of them. AND they have Obective Secured because they are Troops.

**Vineheart01**

Yea the summoned units really need special rules tacked onto them to make them weaker. Something along the lines of CANNOT SCORE OR DENY? Or better yet, vaporize into nothingness after 2 turns (so they deepstrike in, next turn move and do something, then go away). Or both.

As it is, its insane. i cant believe they allowed that. when i heard summoning i thought it was going to be 1-2 models per cast not damn near entire units.

**Kyutaru**

BoomWolf wrote:
Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

Oh really? Read this...

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

This guy isn't even using the most spammy summoning army he can. This can be WORSE.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The most powerful army in the game will likely be Chaos Daemons allied with Grey Knights. BOTH Daemonology powersets and an endless horde of psykers.

**Blacksails**

Yeah, I wanted to believe summoning spells weren't going to be that strong due to WC3, but the initial reports coming in are showing that even summoning 1-2 units per turn can be pretty rough for the opponent to deal with. When you're throwing around 30+ dice, its fairly easy to summon a few good units, and before you know it, you'll be effectively up a few hundred points in a turn or two.

While this is only the first day of the release, I can't help but feel people are going to find ways to make these psyker heavy lists even more terrifying.

**Vineheart01**

Thats why i thought you were summoning 1-2 models per summon, resolved by a 4+ if you got 2 from the summon. When i saw the cards were letting you bring a whole freakin unit just about i was like ...wat....

i dont even know the stats of the things being summoned, all i know is they arent Gretchin level of squishy so they are going to take SOME level of attention. Even if you only get 1 summon off per turn, that forces 1-2 of my units to waste shooting at a unit you didnt pay for so they dont rush down my throat to clog my gunline up.

**Blacksails**

You can summon Bloodthirsters. Like serious, face beating stuff.

**Kyutaru**

I actually like the way the new psyker phase works and the viability it brings to psyker-heavy lists, making an army of sorcerers a possible thing a player can choose to do.

The only problem is with the summoning, but knowing GW they'll nerf psykers across the board to "fix" the problem without tackling the source. Invisibility at least needs to be rolled for on most models but it could get a tweak too.

**Vineheart01**

Yeah, and you summon 10 of those bloodthirsters a time. Not D6+4, not even 2D6, a flat TEN.....wtf why is summoning not a random number with the entire game is randomization spamming?

**Triton**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats why i thought you were summoning 1-2 models per summon, resolved by a 4+ if you got 2 from the summon. When i saw the cards were letting you bring a whole freakin unit just about i was like ...wat....

i dont even know the stats of the things being summoned, all i know is they arent Gretchin level of squishy so they are going to take SOME level of attention. Even if you only get 1 summon off per turn, that forces 1-2 of my units to waste shooting at a unit you didnt pay for so they dont rush down my throat to clog my gunline up.

From a battle report:

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf{/quote]

**Vineheart01**

Yeah i saw that in another post. Its ridiculous. I imagine FLGS across the globe are probably going to house rule the gak out of summoning.

Limit warp charges, to what number im not sure what would be considered "fair"

Summon a random number of units, not a flat big number.

Summons cannot score or deny.

Im probably going to suggest something like that for my group because allowing it as is, even the casual player can abuse it without really trying, and straight up "no summons" kinda kills using that discipline since most of it is summons, but some that arent are still very useful.

**Kyutaru**

Maybe we're just misunderstanding the rules of the summoning. The psyker powers rules states that unless otherwise mentioned, all psyker powers last until the caster's next psyker phase.

What if summoned creatures are ALSO supposed to only last until the next psyker phase? They get summoned to the field, they clog up your enemy's firing, they do some assaults, then they vanish into thin air.

Sounds more balanced?

**Vineheart01**

Except they arrive via Deepstrike rules, so they cant assault and most of them are melee, iirc.

If that was true, and i see where youre getting at with it, summoning minus the Morphing one would be useless lol.

**wuestenfux**

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

In the teaser, JJ was talking about daemonology and summoning a unit of Bloodletters. One unit of Daemon, why not.
But he didn't say anything about summoning 1000 pts of Daemons each round.

Maybe they didn't tell him.

**Galorian**

Kyutaru wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

Oh really? Read this...

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

This guy isn't even using the most spammy summoning army he can. This can be WORSE.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The most powerful army in the game will likely be Chaos Daemons allied with Grey Knights. BOTH Daemonology powersets and an endless horde of psykers.

Triton wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats why i thought you were summoning 1-2 models per summon, resolved by a 4+ if you got 2 from the summon. When i saw the cards were letting you bring a whole freakin unit just about i was like ...wat....

i dont even know the stats of the things being summoned, all i know is they arent Gretchin level of squishy so they are going to take SOME level of attention. Even if you only get 1 summon off per turn, that forces 1-2 of my units to waste shooting at a unit you didnt pay for so they dont rush down my throat to clog my gunline up.

From a battle report:

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

Goddammit GW...

**Triton**

This was good, too:

Some of the powers in the new deck are too much, too. Invisibility for example, got hugely buffed beyond the already extremely powerful spell it was. Now, you can only hit an Invisible unit with snap fire, and 6′s in assault. That means a unit that has become Invisible can’t even be hit by Template or Blast Weapons…..yeah. Simple math tells us that a unit that is only hit on 6′s requires a LOT of attention to do anything to it. Considering that the 2+ reroll saves are still in the game (le sigh) that means you could have a unit like Fateweaver that you hit on 6′s, wound on 5 or 6′s, and that then could have a 2++ save that they reroll. That means the odds of hurting them are 1/1296 to do a SINGLE wound. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

It's a broken game. They didn't playtest gak. They just pooped it out and waited for people to spend money. And it seems like that business model is working.

**Kain**

And people thought that ten tervigon lists were OP...

**Rautakanki**

Without consideration for what the others gained, Orks got buffed in the sense they always could use more FOC slots as their stuff is so cheap, whether you go unbound or double detachment cattlegorged. Also the possibility to use super-scoring battlwagons that are more difficult to break.

Heck, you can have a warboss for every unit if you so please, screw nobs.

Burnaboyz got worse, Kanz got very slightly better, Stompa got better as it can have KFF saves against most D hits, Weirdboyz got... Dunno how they work anymore.

In general I'm pretty pleased, but I'm just playing 40k with a sense of fair play anyways so it doesn't matter to me that somebody can possibly spam a list of like 18 tzeentch heralds who'll spam a billion units into existence out of nowhere. After all I wouldn't have played against a 4 loldrake list in sixth either, not without a similarly equipped list.

EDIT : Oh, my poor Blitza-Bomma got nerfed out of existence, gone are the glory days of blasting a Land Raider apart, unless you get the Zoggin' Heck! result of the Skreamin' Descent table. Waiting for the new Ork dex.

**wuestenfux**

Triton wrote:
This was good, too:

Some of the powers in the new deck are too much, too. Invisibility for example, got hugely buffed beyond the already extremely powerful spell it was. Now, you can only hit an Invisible unit with snap fire, and 6′s in assault. That means a unit that has become Invisible can’t even be hit by Template or Blast Weapons…..yeah. Simple math tells us that a unit that is only hit on 6′s requires a LOT of attention to do anything to it. Considering that the 2+ reroll saves are still in the game (le sigh) that means you could have a unit like Fateweaver that you hit on 6′s, wound on 5 or 6′s, and that then could have a 2++ save that they reroll. That means the odds of hurting them are 1/1296 to do a SINGLE wound. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

It's a broken game. They didn't playtest gak. They just pooped it out and waited for people to spend money. And it seems like that business model is working.

No they didn't as always.

As said elsewhere JJ was talking about daemonology in the teaser. He argued with a smile that one can summon, say, a unit of Bloodletters.
But they broke the game.

**Agent_Tremolo**

^Wow. Just wow.

I'm just back from my first game of 7th, a DA vs Dark Eldar match. Our armies are 6th ed FOC-compliant so no 7th ed listbuilding madness and, with just one Inquisitor and a Librarian on the field, psychics have been relatively tame.

We enjoyed our game greatly, but this... this is unexpected. Too high a warp charge and the game becomes broken.

**Formosa**

Nephilim got a buff, if they give it back missile lock its missiles are now twin-linked, it can also swap weapon destroyed for immobilized which can now kill flyers, not much but it's something

**undertow**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, and you summon 10 of those bloodthirsters a time. Not D6+4, not even 2D6, a flat TEN.....wtf why is summoning not a random number with the entire game is randomization spamming?

I think you meant Bloodletters, not Bloodthirsters.

**l0k1**

Wow, daemons are far better than I anticipated they would be. I really wish Grey Knights were the next imperium army to be updated now lol. Here's to hoping they errata the crap out of the psychic phase and malefic powers.

**bullyboy**

I'll just take some units of grey knights with my DA. Sure, I'll get overwhelmed eventually by all the daemons, but I will keep a mental count of how heroic I was defending the Imperium

"Sure we lost the game, but just look at HOW many dameons we excised!" Little victories.

**Galorian**

I sure hope the errata the f**k out of codices with no psiker options. Necrons in particular need to have their anti-psiker options (few and far between as they may be) updated to work with the new system.

**koooaei**

Triton wrote:

From a battle report:

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf

Actually, as i read it:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase" - means that you can summon daemons only once per phase. Even if everyone got the knowledge of a psy-power. You can just attempt to do it with any psyker that knows the spell. But just once per phase.

**Kain**

Galorian wrote:
I sure hope the errata the f**k out of codices with no psiker options. Necrons in particular need to have their anti-psiker options (few and far between as they may be) updated to work with the new system.

Don't worry, we'll probably get an overpriced dual kit pariah and some freakishly ginormous MC/Walker nobody asked for but everyone's come to expect.

**Kyutaru**

koooaei wrote:

Actually, as i read it:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase" - means that you can summon daemons only once per phase. Even if everyone got the knowledge of a psy-power. You can just attempt to do it with any psyker that knows the spell. But just once per phase.

No because there's a part in the wording of a similar paragraph that shows two units with the same powers can both cast those powers. It only bans a unit from casting repeat powers. I thought the same thing as you at first and had to go back and read carefully as that would break the multiple psyker game they were going for, but I found the section that contradicts what you're saying.

**ionusx**

The clear loser in 7th is de. Their entire army revolves around moving quickly and situationally picking to jink is a death sentence. On top of that poison has been nerfed. Their army is going to be very hard to play. I predict monobuilds or allies to save their gd bacon. As pure de army though, their goose is cooked

The winner is probably gk

Neutral is a massive tie between a bunch of armies like am, sm, and the armies stuck in 5th edition (not mentioned above).

**helotaxi**

BoomWolf wrote:
Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

And that's a change from 6th how, exactly? The first section of the Assault phase "chapter" is a copy-paste from 6th.