The Others 7 Sins CMON Studio McVey + Guillotine Games KS @ $685K - APOCALYPSE UPDATE on Pg.27

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**Bioptic**

Every single CMON Kickstarter, this year (or ever really) has been exclusive heavy.

The only factors that tend to limit this are the game not funding as well as they'd hoped, or the game being more Euro-like in design, which resists lots of extra elements just being added in for the sake of it:

- Zombicide: Black Plague - tons of exclusives, particularly in the heroes.

- Blood Rage (more Euro-style) - exclusives are mostly cosmetic (tokens, alternate clans/versions of monsters), but adds about 80% more monsters over the retail game with unique gameplay.

- B-Sieged - tons of exclusives, lots of these are alternate sculpts or tokens, but many are also unique heroes.

- Rum & Bones - huge number of exclusives (characters), mostly non-cosmetic. The game is a DOTA-alike, so the characters are the primary focus, and without the exclusives team variety is very limited (and non-existent out of the box).

- World of Smog - smaller number of exclusives, most money used to "upgrade" the base game, mostly cosmetic (foil cards, more player pawns). Some exclusives do add variety to a major game element though.

I would not expect this one to be any different, they really do want the hardcore fans to spend as much money with them as possible up-front!

**Theophony**

Bioptic wrote:
Every single CMON Kickstarter, this year (or ever really) has been exclusive heavy.

The only factors that tend to limit this are the game not funding as well as they'd hoped, or the game being more Euro-like in design, which resists lots of extra elements just being added in for the sake of it:

- Zombicide: Black Plague - tons of exclusives, particularly in the heroes.

- Blood Rage (more Euro-style) - exclusives are mostly cosmetic (tokens, alternate clans/versions of monsters), but adds about 80% more monsters over the retail game with unique gameplay.

- B-Sieged - tons of exclusives, lots of these are alternate sculpts or tokens, but many are also unique heroes.

- Rum & Bones - huge number of exclusives (characters), mostly non-cosmetic. The game is a DOTA-alike, so the characters are the primary focus, and without the exclusives team variety is very limited (and non-existent out of the box).

- World of Smog - smaller number of exclusives, most money used to "upgrade" the base game, mostly cosmetic (foil cards, more player pawns). Some exclusives do add variety to a major game element though.

I would not expect this one to be any different, they really do want the hardcore fans to spend as much money with them as possible up-front!

RIght theres always a ton of exclusives, but they were talking add ons.
Blood rage only had the core set, an art book and a fifth player expansion. Makes it really easy for their fulfillment department to pick the right stuff.
I'm not sure about the other ones as I did not follow them too closely, but I don't see this having too many add ons either. I could see the core set getting all the retail boxes for the other sins bundled with it, but not be able to buy additional sets of Lust, Wrath or Envy. THat would mean a really easy pick line that would just grab one of everything and maybe have the add ons of the art book and one other item.
Not like ZBP where they will have 400 possible add ons and a chance to mess up each order by not pulling something.

**Bioptic**

That's true, they have typically "incentivised" major add-ons (big box expansions) with a 10-20% discount and a few minor exclusives (e.g. alt sculpts, tokens, 1 character).

**Alpharius**

The 'exclusives' this time around look to be the 2 or 3 Sins that we'll get for 'free' as part of our pledge.

Odds are still pretty good that we'll have to purchase a Sin or two to complete the set!

**cincydooley**

Bioptic wrote:
Every single CMON Kickstarter, this year (or ever really) has been exclusive heavy.

The only factors that tend to limit this are the game not funding as well as they'd hoped, or the game being more Euro-like in design, which resists lots of extra elements just being added in for the sake of it:

- Zombicide: Black Plague - tons of exclusives, particularly in the heroes.

I did notice with this one that the number of add-on exclusives was incredibly light, and that the add-ons were nearly all artist boxes that would be purchasable at a later time.

The only KS exclusive add ons for Black Plague were some dice and the $18 Grom and Thalia Pack.

That's in comparison with ZC:Rue Morgue that had 8 KS exclusive add ons totaling around $100.

Could indicate a shift in how the add-ons are being addressed.

**JohnHwangDD**

Alpharius wrote:
The 'exclusives' this time around look to be the 2 or 3 Sins that we'll get for 'free' as part of our pledge.

Odds are still pretty good that we'll have to purchase a Sin or two to complete the set!

"7 Sins" means you should get all 7 sins.

If I'm pledging $100 base + $20 S&H for "7 Sins" game, then I should get at least 120 minis. For 7 Sins, the goal looks like this:
7+ Hero models
7+ Hellfire models
56 Sins (7 Sins x 8 models ea)
42 Acolytes (7x 6 models ea)
= 112 models total

That would be fair.

If I need to throw another $25-50 (shipped) at it, no way.

**DaveC**

First of the Add ons (not really counting artbook) and first new stuff not seen before
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/the-others-7-sins/posts/1352106

Gamma Team

The Gamma Team expansion box for The Others: 7 Sins is an Optional Buy you can get for just $30 during the Kickstarter campaign. It will be available on retail at some point for an estimated MSRP of $35.

Here's the list of contents included in the Gamma Team expansion box:

5 Heroes, including 6 Miniatures and their Hero Dashboards
12 Upgrade Cards, featuring 6 new cards
3 Hero Dice
5 Old Town Tiles, including a Maps Leaflet
6 Corrupted Diplomat Acolyte Miniatures, featuring 3 different sculpts and their Acolyte Board
6 Corrupted Gangster Acolyte Miniatures, featuring 3 different sculpts and their Acolyte Board

EDIT See next post for images

**Alpharius**

Who said something about add-ons?!?

This one looks really cool!

Update #13

Sep 14 2015
The Gamma Team is ready to hulk out!
4 Comments
7 likes

Hey Sinners!

The Sin forces have been multiplying quickly with the latest Stretch Goals. I think it's time to call for reinforcements. Gamma Team, come in!

Art by Stefan Kopinski.

This optional buy is an embarrassment of riches, featuring extra material for practically every aspect of the game other than the Sins themselves!

The Gamma Team expansion box for The Others: 7 Sins is an Optional Buy you can get for just $30 during the Kickstarter campaign. It will be available on retail at some point for an estimated MSRP of $35.

Here's the list of contents included in the Gamma Team expansion box:

5 Heroes, including 6 Miniatures and their Hero Dashboards
12 Upgrade Cards, featuring 6 new cards
3 Hero Dice
5 Old Town Tiles, including a Maps Leaflet
6 Corrupted Diplomat Acolyte Miniatures, featuring 3 different sculpts and their Acolyte Board
6 Corrupted Gangster Acolyte Miniatures, featuring 3 different sculpts and their Acolyte Board

Now let's delve further into each aspect of this expansion box.

The Gamma Team counts with 5 heroes, including a Leader, a Bruiser, a Sniper, and two Fixers.

Art by Stefan and Karl Kopinski.

Keanu - Leader

This resourceful military leader takes advantage of his cybernetics enhancements not only for fighting prowess, but also to help his team use the city districts to the best of their advantage. Once per round his uplink can grant any Hero the ability to replace a district's City Action icon for any other they would prefer.

Keanu's production plastic miniature.

River - Fixer

Another victim of the Hell Club's experiments, River's supernatural abilities came as a blessing for FAITH. She's able to literally levitate her teammates around! Once per turn she may move another hero one Space, ignoring all effects for leaving or entering a space caused by tokens and monsters.

River's production plastic miniature.

Doc - Bruiser

Doc might be by far the smartest gorilla around, but don't forget he's still a mountain of muscles and instinctive rage. His Fight stats are very impressive, and beyond that, if he rolls any FAITH results in a fight, all monsters lose 1 Defense!

Doc's production plastic miniature.

Eagle - Sniper

A cybernetically enhanced bowman, Eagle is a dead shot, but don't count on him to resolve any crisis. Once per turn he can use his special arrows to "mark" an Acolyte or Abomination in line of sight. At the end of the round, BOOM, they're dead.

Eagle's production plastic miniature.

Skye - Fixer

Skye is a very unstable werewolf. As a human, she has balanced Fight and Skill stats, but no Defense. She's also incredibly fast, moving two extra Spaces per turn. As a werewolf, she has very good Fight stats, aided by an extra Hit gained in every fight. She loses her Skill stats, but gains very good Defense. However, Skye will always change back and forth between human and wolf at the end of every turn. So you need to be careful to time your actions to take full advantage of her abilities, and avoid her weaknesses.

Skye's production plastic miniatures in human and wolf form.

Gamma Team brings 12 more Upgrade cards to shuffle into your inventory deck, adding more variety and different strategies for the heroes. There are 6 different cards, with 2 copies each, featuring things like Inner Peace training which can be sacrificed to reset your Corruption, and a Bionic Arm that grants +1 dice to both Fight and Skill rolls.

Can never have too many dice, right? This expansion gives heroes 3 extra Hero Dice for their powered-up rolls.

The Gamma Team expansion includes 5 brand new tiles featuring the Old Town part of Haven, adding a lot more variety to the possible map setups used in your games. The box will come with a leaflet featuring maps for all 7 core box stories using these new tiles to create different challenges and dynamics.

The Catacombs and the Cemetery tiles.

The Catacombs - This underground lair, with walls lined with human skulls, was the perfect place to add another unique feature not seen in any of the previous tiles: a permanent Altar token. This means a map setup using this tile is automatically harder for the heroes since the Sins player will have an extra Altar token on the board, giving him more Sin Cards every round if the heroes don't focus on blocking those Altars.

The Cemetery - A place closely connected to the beyond, it allows heroes to heal both wounds and corruption. However, they'd be wise not to linger too much here, since the two Nest tokens it contains mean this district will often be filled with monsters!

The Cathedral and the Monastery tiles.

The Cathedral - This just might be the tile heroes most desperately seek every game. Its holy influence can heal a whopping 2 wounds and 2 corruption from heroes in one go. However, getting to this sanctuary might prove a challenge to heroes, since it's surrounded by Nests and a Corruption token.

The Monastery - By far the holiest district in the game, the Monastery can remove 3 corruption from a hero who visits it. However, it has been tainted by the Sin forces with a permanent Pentagram token, meaning any monsters fighting in the Monastery automatically roll an extra die.

The Prison tile.

The Prison - This desolate underground dungeon may heal one corruption and grant an extra turn, but heroes should be wary of the permanent Fire token raging inside.

The Gamma Team box doesn't offer options just for the Hero players. The Sins player will also be able to benefit from 2 new types of Acolytes to use in the game: Corrupted Diplomats and Corrupted Gangsters!

Each of these Acolytes come with 6 miniatures, featuring 3 different sculpts, as well as their respective Acolyte Boards.

Art by Adrian Smith.

Corrupted Diplomats

Don't let their stuffy nature fool you, Corrupted Diplomats are a very dangerous foe. When one is summoned to join a fight, they neutralize the Hero's natural ability until the end of the round!

Production plastic miniatures of the Corrupted Diplomat Acolytes.

Corrupted Gangsters

These street thugs rely on strength in numbers to serve the Sins. When they're summoned to join a fight, the Sins player may bring TWO Gangsters into the fight, instead of just one.

Production plastic miniatures of the Corrupted Gangster Acolytes.

If you're interested in purchasing this optional buy, please just click the "Manage Your Pledge" button on the The Others: 7 Sins Kickstarter page and in the pledge manager add the amount of the items you'd like to get. We'll sort out what your extra money is going towards after the campaign has closed and we've sent out our Pledge Manager.

I really like the looks of this add-on.

And I like that it will eb easy to 'counts as' in some super-hero stand-ins for the Gamma Team!

**endtransmission**

Yeah, I'm really liking Gamma Team, especially Doc and the Acolytes, especially Maggie Acolyte.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

While I have no issues with scantily clad minis it does seem odd that River has switched from clothed in the art to pants and a vest in the mini

(and especially since her link is to wrath not lust)

**Nostromodamus**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
While I have no issues with scantily clad minis it does seem odd that River has switched from clothed in the art to pants and a vest in the mini

(and especially since her link is to wrath not lust)

Mini matches art as far as I can see.

Look on her calf, you can see the bottom of her leggings/jeans.

**cincydooley**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
The 'exclusives' this time around look to be the 2 or 3 Sins that we'll get for 'free' as part of our pledge.

Odds are still pretty good that we'll have to purchase a Sin or two to complete the set!

"7 Sins" means you should get all 7 sins.

If I'm pledging $100 base + $20 S&H for "7 Sins" game, then I should get at least 120 minis. For 7 Sins, the goal looks like this:
7+ Hero models
7+ Hellfire models
56 Sins (7 Sins x 8 models ea)
42 Acolytes (7x 6 models ea)
= 112 models total

That would be fair.

If I need to throw another $25-50 (shipped) at it, no way.

With all due respect, expecting that volume of miniatures, especially with that many unique ones, at that price point is both unreasonable and completely out of touch with what the market has shown it will bear:

Other $100 games, for comparison--

Imperial Assault - 34 plastic miniatures
Zombicide - 71 plastic miniatures (14 unique sculpts)
Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King - 58 plastic miniatures
MYTH - 41 Plastic Miniatures

Again, I realize you have no interest in gameplay, so I left out all the other components, but this gives you a pretty good comparison.

If all of it was put in the base box the MSRP would have to be well above $100.

**Undead_Love-Machine**

I like the art for the gamma team, but all of the sculpts leave me cold.

Oh well, at least I wont have to spend any extra money.

**JohnHwangDD**

Gamma Team looks better than the starter Heroes, but $30 for <20 minis? Oh, yeah, more tiles.

Anyhow, I wonder if those Acolytes are required if you want the full 7 flavors of Acolyte. If so, then the "complete" game has jumped to $130 + S&H.

**endtransmission**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Gamma Team looks better than the starter Heroes, but $30 for <20 minis? Oh, yeah, more tiles..

If you compare this to a Zombicide artist box (3-4 models at $20), it becomes an absolute bargain

**Theophony**

the figs really let down the artwork with this expansion. Its making it easier to pass up this KS. Prices seem fair to me, getting all 140+ figures for $100 is ridiculous.

**Alpharius**

Theophony wrote:
the figs really let down the artwork with this expansion. Its making it easier to pass up this KS. Prices seem fair to me, getting all 140+ figures for $100 is ridiculous.

I don't follow what you're saying.

Are you saying that you're disappointed in how the miniatures turned out compared to the art?

Are you saying that you think $100 for 140+ miniatures is not good?

**MLaw**

Wow, so much pointless bickering in this thread. Ugh.. would be nice to log in and check this out without putting up with white knights and nitpickers.

Anyway, I like the new team. It's not horribly priced and the theme and models are appealing. What is the robotic tentacle thing coming off of River's leg though?

**Theophony**

Sorry, quick typing as I had to leave the house to pick up the oldest kidlet.

The figures are not as nice as the artwork. I was actually stoked for the monkey ( I know it's a gorilla) till I saw the sculpt. The human form of the werewolf looks sad as well. Obviously only my opinion.

The $100 for 140 figs was in response to John's opinion that that's what a kickstarter should deliver at. I can't see that happening, that would be just too good a price. I think getting anything for around $1 a fig as being a great deal, and usually requires a larger cash output.

**Undead_Love-Machine**

Alex C wrote:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
While I have no issues with scantily clad minis it does seem odd that River has switched from clothed in the art to pants and a vest in the mini

(and especially since her link is to wrath not lust)

Mini matches art as far as I can see.

Look on her calf, you can see the bottom of her leggings/jeans.

It sure looks like she is wearing panties to me.

It's like some dude at CMON showed the artwork to the sculptor and said: "sculpt this figure, but make it more sexy dammit!"

**cincydooley**

MLaw wrote:
Wow, so much pointless bickering in this thread. Ugh.. would be nice to log in and check this out without putting up with white knights and nitpickers.

White knighting. Basic fact presenting. Potato, Po-tato.

Seriously, though, I think there's a reasonable expectation for what one should get for a $100 MSRP game, even on KS, and what the esteemed Mr. DD presented is, simply put, not it.

If all the Sins end up being included in a base KS package, the value will be...considerably higher than nearly every other miniatures boardgame KS, save Kingdom Death.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theophony wrote:

The figures are not as nice as the artwork. I was actually stoked for the monkey ( I know it's a gorilla) till I saw the sculpt.

I'm a little undewhelmed by him also; I may have to repurpose an AT-43 Karman

**MLaw**

If people want to see change, then back for $1 and make your complaints there. At least that way there's a chance CMoN will see it or other backers will support your sentiment. Just griping about it here is not constructive and is simply whining.

They are presenting this with the number of models that they are and with the exclusive models that they are. If you don't like it vote with your wallet. Given the success of most CMoN KS projects, I don't think this is going to change any time soon (thankfully).

**Alpharius**

NOTE: (RULE #1 REMINDER) PLEASE AVOID 'NAME CALLING' and/or LABELING.

Thanks!

**JohnHwangDD**

Theophony wrote:
The $100 for 140 figs was in response to John's opinion that that's what a kickstarter should deliver at.

If you're going to claim something like that, maybe you should use my actual numbers, not make gak up:

If I'm pledging $100 base + $20 S&H for "7 Sins" game, then I should get at least 120 minis. For 7 Sins, the goal looks like this:
7+ Hero models
7+ Hellfire models
56 Sins (7 Sins x 8 models ea)
42 Acolytes (7x 6 models ea)
= 112 models total

That would be fair.

For those of you who can't do basic math ($120+$20=$120) or read the last line (112 models total), I suggested 112 models for $120 as fair amount.

I did not say I needed a Bones 1 deal of 140 models for $100 - that was something you completely made up, and then falsely attributed to me. Uncool.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MLaw wrote:
What is the robotic tentacle thing coming off of River's leg though?

In the text, it's a symbiotic "tail".

Personally, I was thinking along completely different (i.e. "henticle") lines.*

*: Go ahead, Google image un-safe search "henticle" from your work PC. I double-dog dare you!

MLaw wrote:
If you don't like it vote with your wallet.

With SDE : Legends going to Kickstarter, there is a very good chance that I end up pulling the plug on 7 Sins and saving my gaming pennies for the SDE:L KS.

**MLaw**

Off-Topic Post deleted by Manchu

**cincydooley**

JohnHwangDD wrote:

For those of you who can't do basic math ($120+$20=$120) or read the last line (112 models total), I suggested 112 models for $120 as fair amount.

And we provided examples of how your math is out of touch with what else is on the market.

I'm assuming you've either blocked me or are just, at the point, ignoring me.

That's cool. Doesn't change the fact that your value threshold is unreasonable given the market comparisons.

**Manchu**

Time for a friendly reminder from the moderation team ...

Dakka Dakka is a discussion forum. The News & Rumours sub-forum is for discussion of (and not just posting) news and rumours. Thanks!

**JohnHwangDD**

MLaw wrote:
[redacted]

So it's a [redacted] to expect 7 Sins to provide a value comparable to Blood Rage?

Spoiler:

If you add it up, it's 75 models for $75 (before S&H). And it's not like Blood Rage skimps on the big models - those big monsters are the only reason anybody backed the game in the first place! And the BR game is actually mechanically superior to the 7 Sins game.

So in the context of a game that CMoN just released, featuring big monsters as a major draw, expecting CMoN to provide 112 models for $100 in this KS is eminently reasonable. The world didn't completely change since the BR campaign closed.

And if CMoN's Blood Rage isn't a good example, consider the stuff a $90 Barbarian pledge got in Conan:

Spoiler:

By my count, it was 150+ models for $90...

Redactions noted as [redacted].

**Theophony**

My apologies John, I was typing on my Iphone and went from my faulty memory of quantity of models you listed.

Conan though is an aberration for model counts though, just like Zombicide is. ZOmbicide:Black Plague $150 pledge gets you 195ish (i think thats correct) figures., many of which are duplicate models.If you look at other games that have hit kickstarter a majority of them are far fewer in the number count. Conan is similar in that regard with their higher pledge level getting you over 200 models for $135. But the base game itself has over 60 duplicate models. At least here we are getting multiple types of the same monsters.

Edit: Look at Maelstrom's edge 39 models for $90 as an example of a more common kickstarter.

**JohnHwangDD**

OK, no problem. By default, I assume a CMoN minis-based KS to average $1 per model when they collect $75, $90, $100+ and then tack on S&H. If CMoN is moving to a different value proposition, that would be an unwelcome change.

I do agree that Conan was unusually good, but I like to think that they can deliver, given that the average backer put $200 down and they raised over $3.3M total!
____

ETA: MEdge raised a miniscule $70k total over their entire campaign; 7 Sins raised more than that in the first 15 minutes. Apples to apples, 7 Sins should finish in the $500k-$1M range, like Blood Rage, so the economics and value proposition should be more like Blood Rage.