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 easysauce wrote:

4:wtf?!? you expect me to own every army...

I own only one of those armies in your poll and many people own none so...why not

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.

The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.

And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.

Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:

Company Command Squad (Vox, Lascannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Lascannon, vox)
Infantry Squad (Lascannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Lascannon, vox)
Infantry Squad (Lascannon)
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
Company Command Squad (Vox, Lascannon)
Veterans Squad
3xWyverns
Inquisitor (Psyocculum, 3xServo-Skulls)
Inquisitor (Psyocculum, 3xServo-Skulls)

1498

I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...

Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.

Remember conjured units are scoring NOT objective secured. So that makes them a little less useful.

godswildcard wrote:
I'm starting to brainstorm on how to beat a D-Factory list. Not really sure why, as I'm not so sure I'll ever actually face one.

Most competent opponents aren't just going to spam more horrors. They will spam horrors to cast, demonettes or Bloodletters to fight or plague bearers to camp on objectives.

I think the theory is that, because Horrors are so easy to kill, if they STOP summoning more Horrors, it will be an easy task to kill them off and there by deny them the warp charges they need to operate. If they summon Bloodletters and let you kill the Horrors, then they may as well have just started with Bloodletters and not wasted time painting up the li'l pink devils to begin with.

And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.


oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.

AS to the IG list with 4 squads of wyverns, no thats not a "legal" list as all tournaments are basically going to stick with a single FOC and allies.

but replace the 4th unit of wyverns with somethign else, its still a decent list.


looking like guard is ahead in the polls,

This is my 1750, NOT tailored to beat D-factory list, its from memory so I might be off a bit with pts or something. I might mod it a bit, since technically its a 6th ed list, and things changed in 7th, so I wont be unescessarily handicapping myself by keeping it optimized for 6th instead of 7th. again, optomizing it for 7th, NOT tailoring it for demons.

CCS in chimera x 2, all sniper specials

2 preists

2 INQ codex inquisitors

3 psykers


PCS

50 infantry

50 conscripts

4 las cannon HWS

2 autocannon HWS

2nd PCS

20 guard

autocannon HWS

heavy:
3 lemen russ eradicators, 2 with bolter sponsons

1 basilisk

1 basilisk


IIRC that adds up to ~1750,

Ill likely be moving some stuff around, moving some HWS weapons into the guard infantry units to better use orders and provide more durability for the HWT's,

I have also been thinking about dropping the HWS's all together and moving those PT's into hellhounds and or flyers since I am sick of them being instagibbed all the time.

also thinking of dropping all the psykers, as before they were all just precience bots, now that that is so much harder to do, I might change it around so they are more just LD bots, beatsticks or something more reliable/usfull in 7th against all other armies.

again, ill probably throw those pts into more tanks (basilisks most likely) or flyers and or melta SWS's in the flyers

The idea is a guard aplha strike, with lots of stuff able to barrage fire out of LOS behind the av14 wall of russes, and have 100+ GI's to bubble wrap my vehicles to prevent close combat units from rolling into them.

as well has have enough melta that I can place behind knights if needed (knights are in the tournament meta here)

 Red Corsair wrote:

Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.

It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.

Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the bastion, honestly. If he wants to hide them in there all game, fine. I'll murder everything he has not inside the bastion, and take control of the table. With most if not all his 20-man horror squads dead within the first two turns of the game, he'll be generating around 12-20 WC's a turn; his daemon factory will be a lot less scary under those circumstances.

Something to keep in mind is that he still needs to actually win the game, which you can only do by either out-killing your opponent or outscoring him on objectives. If he's spending all his WC's making new daemon squads then he's not spending enough to reliably get those flickering fires off, and he can't conjure enough Daemons to flood the objectives with the rate at which my ranged firepower will be putting his squads down.

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.


oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.

cannot cast anything that is not a witch fire from a building/vehicle FYI,

so no go on putting demons inside and trying to summon

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.

While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....

 Scott-S6 wrote:
If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.

So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.

As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.

While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....

 Scott-S6 wrote:
If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.

So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.

As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.

except heralds are ic's and join each other into a unit. Anyway as i forgot and mentioned earlier only witch fires can be used out of buildings.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.

It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.

Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.

cant ally with yourself sorry

jakl277 wrote:
Mostly all the troops that are spawned have objective secured.

Actually non of them will.
Were any of them purchased in a detachment with the Objective Secured Command Benefit?
No they were not...

 easysauce wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.

It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.

Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.

cant ally with yourself sorry

I was under the impression that in 7th all armies are battle-brothers with themselves and can be taken as multiple detachments.

is that not the case?

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.


oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.

could they be putting the new heralds(which are summoned as a lone model) be summmoned in the building?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.

It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.

Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.

cant ally with yourself sorry

I was under the impression that in 7th all armies are battle-brothers with themselves and can be taken as multiple detachments.

is that not the case?

unbound is a thing, but no tournament will use it, at least around here, same with unlimited FOCs, hence the assumption you only get one FOC + an allied one.

im 99% sure the BRB explicitly states no "playing with yourself" allies ill 2x check when I get back but it should be there


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.


oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.

could they be putting the new heralds(which are summoned as a lone model) be summmoned in the building?

A: psykers in buildings/vehicles cant cast powers that are not witchfires

b: you cannot deep strike into a vehicle/building, so no summoning into one either as you arrive via DS

Conjured units arrive via deepstrike, so you can't summon them *into* a building. You'd have to deep-strike them outside, then have them move into it in the following movement phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:


unbound is a thing, but no tournament will use it, at least around here, same with unlimited FOCs, hence the assumption you only get one FOC + an allied one.

im 99% sure the BRB explicitly states no "playing with yourself" allies ill 2x check when I get back but it should be there

I'm not talking about unbound, I'm talking about Battle-forged armies.

You can take "an unlimited number of detachments" in a battle forged army, From the attachment selection chapter:

You can include any number and type of Detachments in a Battle-forged army provided
you have sufficient units. Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of
your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that
particular Detachment.

The specification is that an allied detachment can not be of the same faction as your primary detachment. So you're right that you technically can not ally with yourself. However, you can have an unlimited number of combined-arms detachments, and if you take more than one, your additonal CA detachments are allowed to be the same faction as your primary detachment. So you technically can ally with yourself, but you just have to follow the Combined-arms FOC instead of the allied FOC, meaning I need to have one HQ and two troops choices instead of the allied FOC's one HQ and one troops choice.

Here's what an updated, legal list would look like:

Company Command Squad (Vox, Lascannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
Infantry Squad (Autocannon)
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
Infantry Squad (Autocannon)
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
3xWyverns
Company Command Squad (Vox, Autocannon)
Veterans
Veterans
3xWyverns
Inquisitor (Psyocculum, 3xServo-Skulls)
Inquisitor (Psyocculum)

1499

It has one primary combined arms detachment, and one secondary detachment which is also combined-arms, not allies. Not technically double-FOC, either.

yeah blax, legally, you can bring anything you want via unbound, or as many FOC's as you want.


realistically, No tournament will allow either of those,

1 main FOC, + 1 allied FOC (cant be same faction as primary)

will be how 99% of competitive tournaments have you make your list.

Skullhammer wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.

While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....

 Scott-S6 wrote:
If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.

So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.

As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.

except heralds are ic's and join each other into a unit. Anyway as i forgot and mentioned earlier only witch fires can be used out of buildings.

Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain:
1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds.
2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers rolled a double 6.
Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah blax, legally, you can bring anything you want via unbound, or as many FOC's as you want.


realistically, No tournament will allow either of those,

1 main FOC, + 1 allied FOC (cant be same faction as primary)

will be how 99% of competitive tournaments have you make your list.

No tournament will allow daemon factory as is either so why are we discussing this then?

 easysauce wrote:
yeah blax, legally, you can bring anything you want via unbound, or as many FOC's as you want.

It's not an unbound list, Sauce. It's a battle-forged list. You can take as many detachments as you want in a battle-forged army.

Unbound has nothing to do with my list. In Unbound, everything you take counts as a single, Primary detachment. Battle-forged armies have a Primary Detachment and an unlimited number of secondary detachments, Unbound armies have only a primary detachment which has no FOC.

From the rulebook:

BATTLE FORGED ARMIES
A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want
to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various
requirements. For example, one common type of Detachment requires the use of at least
one HQ unit and two Troops units

SELECTING DETACHMENTS
You can include any number and type of Detachments in a Battle-forged army provided
you have sufficient units. Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of
your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that
particular Detachment.
Later in this section you will find the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied
Detachment. Both of these can be used with any army. Each Detachment is split into
three sections: Force Organisation Chart, Restrictions and Command Benefits.

What he's saying is that tournaments won't allow it. The rules also allow you to take more than one Combined Arms Detachment and they DON'T have to be the same faction as your primary. You can have a CAD of Tyranids mixed with a CAD of Grey Knights and a CAD of Daemons if you wanted.

Essentially, allying means little now. Tournaments probably aren't going to allow such builds.

I doubt tournaments are going to care about the set-up of battleforged armies, personally. The fluff heresy aside, I don't think tournaments are going to prevent you from taking a Battle-Forged Grey Knights army with allied Tyranids and Daemons. It's stupid, but it isn't more broken then some of the things they've been allowing for years, like 2+ re-rollable saves.

Like I said, do you really think a tournament that limits FOC will even allow daemon factory? Not likely.

That's a fair point.

I believe the best answer will be artillery. Inorder to summon a unit they have to roll 6 dice on average to make sure they get it they will roll 8, they should perils often. I mean get out 6-8 dice and roll it 3 - 4 times and watch how often you perils. Heralds have only 2 wounds so once they perils a single artillery hit should do the rest, or you can use the order that makes your shots precision shots to accomplish something similar.

I don't understand how msu daemons is all of a sudden a threat?

I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?

If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.

I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.

The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.

 Ailaros wrote:
I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?

If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.

I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.

The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.

But how will we beat Asterix and Obelisk without letting them think the sky is falling.

I want to try and face the daemon factory, at least once before I pass judgement on it.

 Ailaros wrote:
I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?

If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.

I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.

The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.

Hey, if you think you can kill 60 models per turn, all the power to you. Just don't target the ones Be'lakor is making invisible... cause yeah, those ones aren't dying.

to the above... you are not getting 60 models a turn, even with everything dedicated to summons... stop making up #'s like that based off one bat rep where demons make every single summon roll... even ones that had a 12% chance to go off...


and yes, 40-60+ models a turn is very very doable by most leaf blower armies like tau eldar and guard, ESP since the demons are low T with bad saves.

not to mention that you aplha strike can/will cripple their summoning powers if you do your job and prioritize targets.

 easysauce wrote:
to the above... you are not getting 60 models a turn, even with everything dedicated to summons... stop making up #'s like that based off one bat rep where demons make every single summon roll... even ones that had a 12% chance to go off...

See, if you say things like this, it just goes to show you're theorycrafting rather than actually testing. You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless. The lists I've created and fought against can conjure up 38 warp charges per turn. If I split those evenly, you're looking at 7+ warp charges devoted to each summoning attempt. Perils? Feth perils. You lose a single pink horror every time one perils, and it's unlikely to begin with in a daemon army. Once pink horrors start summoning pink horrors, you're getting way more daemon summoning power per turn, it ramps up in effectiveness turn after turn unless you can cripple it from the beginning.

But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own, but then he starts casting Invisibility. Have you ever attempt to leaf-blow an invisible Daemon unit? Good luck on that. This even assumes you're playing against a friendly Daemon Factory devoted to summoning, not one of the unfriendly ones devoted to Possession. They typically carry Fateweaver with them. Have you ever fought an invisible Fateweaver before? It's not an experience I recommend trying. He is impossible to kill.

By all means, attempt an alpha strike. Not everyone plays with zero terrain on the field and no objectives to go after. Heck, one game at our store, the guy playing Daemons had horrible luck rolling his summons. But it didn't matter because he still won just by controlling the most objectives, tying up the enemy army with just enough summoned nuisances to stall him. If you think you can stop these armies using these tactics, then DO IT. But please... don't patronize the rest of us with different experiences. There's a single topic on this forum claiming Daemons are not a threat and countless more stating the opposite. Play it yourself and come up with an informed decision.