Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A really strange thing to think about. There's only one choice and its Horus. Horus the character is created to be the perfect warmaster candidate, the emperors successor. He has the charisma and ambition of the emperor. Sanguinus does not have this ambition. He does not share the emps vision for the galaxy. Guilliman lacks the charisma and character to make the others follow him despite his technical knowledge. Horus is the first among equals, he has to be the warmaster so that his tragic fall makes the most impact. Elsewise, the story makes no sense. Granted Horus fall in the books is spuriously motivated at best but the classic tragic story elements are all there and are nothing new

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

I think the likely outcome of Guilliman running the show wouldn't be Gulliman falling, but in people going rogue due to not liking him. He is the next most logical choice, but whereas Horus was disliked by none or few, Guilliman does have those who don't like him for the simple fact he is pragmatic.

I disagree, I believe any Primarch could fall given enough persuasion or cause. Horus is obviously the best example here. Unrivaled but still bought low. Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire makes you see how much Horus loved the Emperor and makes his fall seem unbeliebable. I still feel his fall is one of the worst aspects of the Heresy series so far, it's still not been fully explained yet if you ask me.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
The heresy is inevitable because the writers want the bleak setting and the betrayal. Gulliman couldn't have stopped that, it just would have taken a different turn.

And because it has been apart of fluff since what, 2nd Edition?

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I know there is the Dornian heresy, but I find it a bit boring in that it's just everyone bad is good and everyone good is bad. Far more interesting is taking some good and making them bad, and making some bad good. If Guilliman was war master, would Horus have rebelled due to jealousy?

As an interesting extrapolation, assume the heresy is pre ordained regardless of war master. Who stays loyal under Guilliman who goes rogue?

to me, It comes down to the choice that Horus made on Davin. If he would have saw the lies of Erebus and remained loyal the story would have been different. The Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand Sons had no choice in their fates and were already chosen by the Pantheon to be bought into the fold. World Eaters is a tricky one as Lorgar forced Angron, but I believe he would have eventually fell to Khorne. Word Bearers were gone as were the Night Lords. Iron Warriors are a tricky bet, as it's suggested that after Olympia it was Horus that said that the Emperor would forgive them for what they had done. If Horus was loyal perhaps he would have said Father can forgive you. Then the Alpha Legion, but it depends on the Cabal, if the Heresy wasn't such a threat perhaps they would not have intervened.

I strongly feel that those that were loyal during the Horus Heresy would have remained loyal if any other Primarch had been made Warmaster. I do not believe that the Heresy would have been on such a scale if the leader was not Horus, as he was the uniting force. I believe the Legions would have fell at different times, well, in one of my fan versions of the heresy at least. Horus warns Guilliman of Lorgar's actions, after Erebus failed attempt to convert him, being the obvious choice after Monarchia. Horus goes to confront Magnus and bring him to Terra. Guilliman kills Lorgar after he reveals to him the nature of Chaos. Kor Phaeron manages to flee with some Word Bearers and Guilliman gives chase, however, wanting to learn more of the nature of Chaos he takes many of Lorgar's texts with him. Guilliman spends many days of the chase in confinement studying the text until eventually the Ultramarines catch up with Kor Phaeron's fleet, but rather than kill him, he asks to be told more ... queue corruption and the Realm of Ultramar becoming a stomping ground for Daemons.

Sanguinius, Guilliman or the Lion, in that order.

 Exergy wrote:


What would Horus, the ambitious and trusted primarch who knew the emperor better than any of the others have done?

I don't understand your question.

You guys are all wrong. There is only one who would have been a better Warmaster.

Matt Ward.

He even has "War" in his name.

The thing is minus horus, he has one of biggest legions, the respect of all and ability as senior crusade leader to tweak new equipment to his to betraitors.

He was one of main architects and managed to get 8 others to go to his a side but without him it would not have been so large as yes some would always have gone rougue at some point but he gave the rebels a strong leadership, it would have been more decided and far less likely to succeed as one or two alone could do a lot of damage but not take on the other 16 legions aalone.

Angron, for the lulz

Why do people always insist on saying that guilliman was tactically the best primarch? Every horus heresy book that shows a primarch's thoughts on his brothers has them saying that horus was the best of them and that none of them were a match for him

How about a triumvirat ?

Handing the whole load onto Horus didn't turn out well.

why did there need to be a warmaster anyway?

why did the primarchs get put in groups of three to go on the crusade? the choices were poor (russ, magnus and lorgar for example). with such a huge war machine as the imperium why couldn't each prim arch have their own entire fleet?

the emperor was just the worst.

Magnus and Lorgar went along pretty good. Russ, on the other hand..

 The Anathema wrote:
why did there need to be a warmaster anyway?

Horus would have provided a final authority - being recognised as the official proxy of the Emperor. Some of the legions - loyalist and future traitor alike - were openly hostile to the new administration of Terra and so would only take orders from one of their own.

Horus would also provide the big picture - allocating legions to ensure they deploy where they are required rather than letting say Angron and the World Eaters go off on a rampage that would devastate worlds that could have been brought to compliance by peaceful means.

 YFNPsycho wrote:

 raiden wrote:

And this is why Horus was the best choice for Warmaster.
He knew the strengths and weaknesses of his brother primarchs better than anyone else, because he was comfortable with all of their skills.

No that wasn't really why at all. He was picked because he was the most approachable of the Primarchs to the rest of the Primarchs. Basically no one hated or envied him. He wasn't the best at anything. He was in the middle of every single category not the top of any. There were several better warriors, stronger warriors, and smarter tacticians. He was third or fourth at best in every category that could matter, but he wasn't terrible and could get the other Primarchs to listen


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Why do people always insist on saying that guilliman was tactically the best primarch? Every horus heresy book that shows a primarch's thoughts on his brothers has them saying that horus was the best of them and that none of them were a match for him

No EVERY single bit of the fluff even in the Horus Heresy says Guilliman was the best unless it is being said by a Luna Wolf. All other legions refer to Guilliman as the best. It is literally the one trait he is most known for. Turning theoretical into practical.

Off the top of my head alone I can state that in the lightning tower dorn says that none could match horus on the field of war


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where does it say guilliman was the best in the fluff? Stupid autocorrect

Ceann Fine wrote:
Off the top of my head alone I can state that in the lightning tower dorn says that none could match horus on the field of war


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where does it say guilliman was the best in the fluff? Stupid autocorrect

In the Ultramarines Fluff section of the Space Marine Codex. And by a couple Ultras in Know No Fear.

JubbJubbz wrote:
There's only one choice and its Horus. Horus the character is created to be the perfect warmaster candidate, the emperors successor. He has the charisma and ambition of the emperor. Sanguinus does not have this ambition. He does not share the emps vision for the galaxy. Guilliman lacks the charisma and character to make the others follow him despite his technical knowledge. Horus is the first among equals, he has to be the warmaster so that his tragic fall makes the most impact. Elsewise, the story makes no sense.

I agree it could only be horus

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Off the top of my head alone I can state that in the lightning tower dorn says that none could match horus on the field of war


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where does it say guilliman was the best in the fluff? Stupid autocorrect

In the Ultramarines Fluff section of the Space Marine Codex. And by a couple Ultras in Know No Fear.

Come on it hardly counts when it's ultramarines saying it

 1hadhq wrote:
How about a triumvirat ?

Handing the whole load onto Horus didn't turn out well.

This never works in war. The leaders bicker and argue about which way is.best and get nothing done. Or look at Rome when hannibal invaded, one leader wanted to starve him out through attrition. The best way as they could not beat him in open battle. The other wanted to go and crush him, and so, attempted. Then promptly lost 20-40k men.

If I were the Emperor I would've picked Konrad for Warmaster fur die lulz.

The best choice, bar Horus, would've probably been Sanguinius for his man management. Several were better tacticians, strategists and warriors, but Sanguinius seems to know how to delegate.

Guilliman.

The Domain of Ultramar Imperium won't build itself.

Roboute Guilliman, or Sanguinius. I voted Robot Girlyman, though.

i suppose guilliman would be the obvious choice, but i'd really say that the best would be whichever is quickest to admit their own flaws, and be willing to consider the advice of others based on their own strengths.
the biased part of me says corax, though, he just strikes me as being the coolest and most interesting of the primarchs. he saw corruption and tyranny first-hand for much of his early life, and while he may not have had the best governing skills, he certainly had the integrity needed for the job.
of course, horus also started out with good intentions, and you know what they say about the road to hell...

morpheuschild wrote:
i suppose guilliman would be the obvious choice, but i'd really say that the best would be whichever is quickest to admit their own flaws, and be willing to consider the advice of others based on their own strengths.
the biased part of me says corax, though, he just strikes me as being the coolest and most interesting of the primarchs. he saw corruption and tyranny first-hand for much of his early life, and while he may not have had the best governing skills, he certainly had the integrity needed for the job.
of course, horus also started out with good intentions, and you know what they say about the road to hell...

By your requirements, that is still Guilliman. He is quite willing to note his own flaws and consider advice of even base space marines that are not his inner circle.

First off I think its important to clarify whether you think the Warmaster is just supposed to be a military leader, or whether they are the designated heir to the (immortal) Emperor. My thinking is that the Emperor intended this to be purely a military role - it was the start of the Emperor splitting civilian administration and the military war machine, but everyone in the Imperium assumed that by elevating Horus into a position of power he was also choosing an heir.

If you assume that it was a purely military role then imo there is only one other choice - Sanguinius. However I think the Emperor was well aware of the flaw in his gene seed/Legion and didn't want to risk having his leading general + legion go blood crazy on him.
Just quickly running through the other viable candidates:
The Lion - Amazing strategic mind but zero people skills and troubling background (Watchers in the Dark + the whole 'your planet is secretly a Greater Daemon' thing)
Dorn - I always find it odd that people pick him for this. He is defensively minded, has less than stellar people skills and is never really shown to be a particularly outstanding leader/tactician compared to the likes of the Lion or Guilliman. More importantly he is arguably the most unstable of all the Primarchs and would be a terrible Warmaster.
Guilliman - a master strategy, tactics and logistics and someone who saw further than just conquest. If you were picking an heir or a regent to the Imperium then he would probably be your man, but as a straight general he lacks the charisma and good relationships with all his brothers.
Russ - imo he actually would have made a pretty damn good Warmaster. With him you get guaranteed loyalty and someone who is feared and respected as a warrior and a leader across the entire Imperium. The thing about Russ is that he always stepped up and did what was asked, he united his planet and ruled that before the Emperor found him, and then stepped into the Executioneer role because that is what was asked of him. He may not have wanted to become Warmaster, but that by itself is often a sign of a good leader.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Why do people always insist on saying that guilliman was tactically the best primarch? Every horus heresy book that shows a primarch's thoughts on his brothers has them saying that horus was the best of them and that none of them were a match for him

Apart from the ones that say it's the lion, guiliman states this also and the "warmaster" refuses to meet the lion head on, he and the lion both know the lion will cone out on top, now in cc...horus wins

Horus wasn't the best at anything but being social. That's why he was chosen. He was good at everything but not really a master at anything, yet the close ties he had to all of his brothers, even the outcasts, is what allowed him to be a leader among equals, which is what the Emperor truly needed.

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Angron, for the lulz

 Formosa wrote:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Why do people always insist on saying that guilliman was tactically the best primarch? Every horus heresy book that shows a primarch's thoughts on his brothers has them saying that horus was the best of them and that none of them were a match for him

Apart from the ones that say it's the lion, guiliman states this also and the "warmaster" refuses to meet the lion head on, he and the lion both know the lion will cone out on top, now in cc...horus wins

Funnily enough lion was my pick even before I noticed that the horus option wasn't there

Guilliman, the Emperor's greatest mistake was not creating 20 Guilliman's.
Gman shaped the Ultramarines to be great:

Most worlds liberated during the great crusade

Captured worlds faster than any other Legion

Highest recruitment rate

Lowest death rate

Creates self supporting defence systems for conquered worlds

Creates industry and trade routes for the Imperium.

From these points we see that he is not only a superb war leader, but also that he not only kills the enemies of the Imperium but strengthens the Imperium as well. Guilliman also created the Codex Astartes, which has made the Space Marines preeminent warriors even ten thousand years later, and his reforms forged an Imperium with more staying power than even the Emperor's.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Horus wasn't the best at anything but being social. That's why he was chosen. He was good at everything but not really a master at anything, yet the close ties he had to all of his brothers, even the outcasts, is what allowed him to be a leader among equals, which is what the Emperor truly needed.

and he had more experience and was more trusted by the emperor

50 years of constant battle in the early days before any other primarch was discovered.