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Animus wrote:
Guilliman, the Emperor's greatest mistake was not creating 20 Guilliman's.
Gman shaped the Ultramarines to be great:

Most worlds liberated during the great crusade

Captured worlds faster than any other Legion

Highest recruitment rate

Lowest death rate

Creates self supporting defence systems for conquered worlds

Creates industry and trade routes for the Imperium.

From these points we see that he is not only a superb war leader, but also that he not only kills the enemies of the Imperium but strengthens the Imperium as well. Guilliman also created the Codex Astartes, which has made the Space Marines preeminent warriors even ten thousand years later, and his reforms forged an Imperium with more staying power than even the Emperor's.

I don't disagree with you. The Ultramarines' record speaks for itself; that is exactly what you want from your legions in a crusade of conquest. If the job was to lead armies in the conquest of the galaxy, then Guilliman was clearly the only right choice. But being Warmaster, as many have pointed out, isn't about commanding armies, it's about commanding Primarchs. And since fully half of them are emotionally stunted manchildren incapable of making smart decisions unless they are being tricked into them, the Warmaster must be someone charismatic and well-liked by all. For that reason, and certainly not out of any tactical or strategic considerations, Sanguinius is next in line for the job.

Animus wrote:
Guilliman, the Emperor's greatest mistake was not creating 20 Guilliman's.
Gman shaped the Ultramarines to be great:

Most worlds liberated during the great crusade

Captured worlds faster than any other Legion

Highest recruitment rate

Lowest death rate

Creates self supporting defence systems for conquered worlds

Creates industry and trade routes for the Imperium.

From these points we see that he is not only a superb war leader, but also that he not only kills the enemies of the Imperium but strengthens the Imperium as well. Guilliman also created the Codex Astartes, which has made the Space Marines preeminent warriors even ten thousand years later, and his reforms forged an Imperium with more staying power than even the Emperor's.

I thought that up until the heresy, the Sons of Horus liberated the most worlds? IIRC in the time they were functioning with their primarch(s), the Alpha Legion actually captured more worlds faster than the other Legions, and if they'd had the time that Girlyman had they would of easily surpassed his record, which is why he wasn't a fan of theirs (and I doubt the whole becoming chaotic helped either).

Guilliman apparently could have been Warmaster if he'd wanted, but turned it down because he's too cool for school.

So really, the Heresy is actually Guilliman's fault.

Rowboat Girlyman is a bad choice. As he was willing to turn on loyal imperial warriors to enforce *his* laws & will when he wasn't even around for any of the real fighting. In addition not only has he forced rules upon other chapters he then breaks these rules by commanding his own PDFs (among other things). Thus he is little more than an opportunist who saw the death of his father as a way to grab power.

I think the scene from Family Guy where George W. Bush shows up "too late" for Vietnam & asks if he missed the fight best describes him.

1. Guilliman - This is what having your gak together looks like.
2. Vulkan - He might require a nudge here and there, but I would rather my leadership be more kind to my people, and employ assassins and what not for the stuff Vulkan may find distasteful.
3. Omegon - Only due to recent FW fluff that makes me believe he never left Terra like the others. I get the feel he may have been raised by the emperor in secret, but I like to make gak up.

I only omit Sanguinius because of wings. Trying to get away from religon won't be helped by your super angel general. Guilliman, Vulkan and Alpharius have all displayed a lack of what are generally referred to as fatal character flaws, like pride, obsession, vanity, rage and etc.

I still take Guilliman over all by a very large margin.

Vulgar wrote:
1. Guilliman - This is what having your gak together looks like.
2. Vulkan - He might require a nudge here and there, but I would rather my leadership be more kind to my people, and employ assassins and what not for the stuff Vulkan may find distasteful.
3. Omegon - Only due to recent FW fluff that makes me believe he never left Terra like the others. I get the feel he may have been raised by the emperor in secret, but I like to make gak up.

I only omit Alpharius because of wings. Trying to get away from religon won't be helped by your super angel general. Guilliman, Vulkan and Alpharius have all displayed a lack of what are generally referred to as fatal character flaws, like pride, obsession, vanity, rage and etc.

I still take Guilliman over all by a very large margin.

Alpharius doesn't have wings, that would be Sanguinius. And Guilliman was very prideful actually. Its likely that Guilliman would have fallen in mostly the same way that Horus did, since his pride is what Erebus targeted.

Also, Omegon was with Alpharius all the time.

tgjensen wrote:
I don't disagree with you. The Ultramarines' record speaks for itself; that is exactly what you want from your legions in a crusade of conquest. If the job was to lead armies in the conquest of the galaxy, then Guilliman was clearly the only right choice. But being Warmaster, as many have pointed out, isn't about commanding armies, it's about commanding Primarchs. And since fully half of them are emotionally stunted manchildren incapable of making smart decisions unless they are being tricked into them, the Warmaster must be someone charismatic and well-liked by all. For that reason, and certainly not out of any tactical or strategic considerations, Sanguinius is next in line for the job.

The fact that some Primarchs are manchildren doesn't make it an excuse. They could just be pulled from active duty until they learned to respect the chain of command. Can you imagine any other army just refusing orders because they were a little stroppy that day?

 Toastaster wrote:
I thought that up until the heresy, the Sons of Horus liberated the most worlds?

You could probably find some source for that. But it's the Ultramarine's claim as recently as the 7e rulebook and as early as 2e Codex Ultramarines.

 Toastaster wrote:
IIRC in the time they were functioning with their primarch(s), the Alpha Legion actually captured more worlds faster than the other Legions, and if they'd had the time that Girlyman had they would of easily surpassed his record, which is why he wasn't a fan of theirs (and I doubt the whole becoming chaotic helped either).

Nope, the only time I remember them being strictly opposed was in Index Astartes, and the Alpha Legion have seemingly since been replaced by the Word Bearers in terms of Ultramarine rivalry. Guilliman and Alpharius had a heated debate over tactics and ideology, which ended with Guilliman showing off his much greater honour roll and saying Alpharius could never compare, Alparius got mad and cleaved to his tactics even harder. It was actually said that the Alphas could not equal the number of worlds conquered by the older legions, implying at best they were going at the same pace as the older Legions.

Also, just realized.

Whoever becomes Warmaster will inevitably fall. However, unless that person has numerous allies among his brothers and has strong his charisma, the rebellion will be severely weakened and never have the strength as the one led by Horus. Make Curze warmaster for example, and very few Primarchs are likely to be swayed to his side when he falls- forcing Chaos to seek a much longer and possibly more risky plan to cripple the Imperium.

The Heresy didn't happen based on how tempting Chaos is or a bad Warmaster choice. The Emperor in fact caused the heresy by making several missteps. He placed massive power in a few people's hands and then concealed critical information from them that made them more vulnerable and also gave them cause to distrust him.

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
So, as it turns out, picking Horus to be Warmaster wasn't the brightest of ideas, what with that whole Horus Heresy thing.

If you were the Emperor, which Primarch would you pick to lead the Great Crusade in your absence?

Horus was the obvious choice:
He was the first one the emperor found.
He and the emperor fought the great crusade alone together for some 50 years before another primarch was found.
Horus was by far the most experienced
Horus was the strongest
Horus was the smartest
Horus had the most command of his brother primachs

Horus was perfect, or as close as possible among any of the other primarchs.

To not pick Horus is to not have a warmaster and the emperor would have had to remain in command of the crusade for all time(but he had other things to do)
To not pick Horus might have led to a more serious rebellion, who knows, but when you dont pick the guy who is obvious and qualified for the job, you often have problems

This

Just look at how things were playing out before the fall. Sure Dorn and Sanguinus might have been charismatic as hell, sure Angron and Russ might have been combat incarnate, sure Peterabo and Vulkan were sharp as tacks. But Horus was all of those things. The strength of Horus was that he could lead from the front, lead from the rear, and coordinate with any one. Sure in a one on one fight he might have lost to Angron or Mortarion, maybe Johnson could beat him in a sword fight, Khan and Lorgar were probably more enthusiastic and passionate than he was, Robute probably had a better grasp for crafting battle doctrine and composing cohesive forces on both a small and large scale. But Horus, more than any other primarch, had the raw experience needed to balance the talents and attributes of the other primarchs along with their associated legions to best maximize their potential. There's even mention in the fluff of Horus intentionally assigning other primarchs to work together that openly hated each other just so that they would compete to put-perform one another. That's talent... an incredible talent and skill that outweighs almost any other.

I would have made Vulkan He'stan the forgefather be the warmaster.

Guy is smart, understands his enemy and himself, can lead his brothers well, and is actually open minded enough to understand that unguided zealotry is powerful and yet doomed to fail without some malleability.


So sad that he is a far better character than all the primarchs combined.

I would have picked Angron to be warmaster.

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
The Heresy didn't happen based on how tempting Chaos is or a bad Warmaster choice. The Emperor in fact caused the heresy by making several missteps. He placed massive power in a few people's hands and then concealed critical information from them that made them more vulnerable and also gave them cause to distrust him.

...Except that Horus didn't fall because of shoddy information, but because Lorgar and Daemon allies had been manipulating everything so Horus would end up stabbed with a tainted weapon (iirc the Laer Blade) that forced him to turn to Chaos or die.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
The Heresy didn't happen based on how tempting Chaos is or a bad Warmaster choice. The Emperor in fact caused the heresy by making several missteps. He placed massive power in a few people's hands and then concealed critical information from them that made them more vulnerable and also gave them cause to distrust him.

...Except that Horus didn't fall because of shoddy information, but because Lorgar and Daemon allies had been manipulating everything so Horus would end up stabbed with a tainted weapon (iirc the Laer Blade) that forced him to turn to Chaos or die.

He has a valid point though. If Horus and the other primarchs had been informed of the existence of Chaos beforehand instead of being told complete lies by the Emperor, I think they would have been much more prepared to deal with the threat. Instead they were left intentionally ignorant of the threat, and that made each and every one of them vulnerable.

From an out of universe perspective, I'd choose Fulgrim just because I'd like to see the Eldar's reaction to a second galaxy spanning empire falling to Slaanesh.

As a serious answer, I'd pick Roberto Gillyweed for the reasons listed by every fething other person in this thread.

 Orblivion wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
1. Guilliman - This is what having your gak together looks like.
2. Vulkan - He might require a nudge here and there, but I would rather my leadership be more kind to my people, and employ assassins and what not for the stuff Vulkan may find distasteful.
3. Omegon - Only due to recent FW fluff that makes me believe he never left Terra like the others. I get the feel he may have been raised by the emperor in secret, but I like to make gak up.

I only omit Alpharius because of wings. Trying to get away from religon won't be helped by your super angel general. Guilliman, Vulkan and Alpharius have all displayed a lack of what are generally referred to as fatal character flaws, like pride, obsession, vanity, rage and etc.

I still take Guilliman over all by a very large margin.

Alpharius doesn't have wings, that would be Sanguinius. And Guilliman was very prideful actually. Its likely that Guilliman would have fallen in mostly the same way that Horus did, since his pride is what Erebus targeted.

Thanks for the winged demigod correction, hey, they rhyme at least.

That being said; I should have used the phrase "excessive pride". Is Guilliman prideful, yes. He has a reason to be.

What I interpret, is that he can escape to rational thought. The avenging son pulled from Nuceria once stuff went south, meanwhile other primarchs may have fought to the death.

Even though Guilliman is my favorite Primarch, I voted for Dorn. Some of the stuff Dorn says really speaks to me. This guy loved the Imperium. What it was and what it could have become. Both his sadness at tearing down the beauty of the Imperial Palace to replace it with kill boxes and ramparts, and his subsequent dogged defense of it during the Siege of Terra.

Dorn was a believer. There is nothing more dangerous than someone who believes in the mission you put before them. Dorn could have faced the exact same trials as Horus and not for a second thought about tearing down the Imperium.

Remember that as Horus was found first, he was taught everything he knew directly from Big E.

Subsequent Primarchs were taught by Horus

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

morpheuschild wrote:
i suppose guilliman would be the obvious choice, but i'd really say that the best would be whichever is quickest to admit their own flaws, and be willing to consider the advice of others based on their own strengths.
the biased part of me says corax, though, he just strikes me as being the coolest and most interesting of the primarchs. he saw corruption and tyranny first-hand for much of his early life, and while he may not have had the best governing skills, he certainly had the integrity needed for the job.
of course, horus also started out with good intentions, and you know what they say about the road to hell...

By your requirements, that is still Guilliman. He is quite willing to note his own flaws and consider advice of even base space marines that are not his inner circle.

Guilliman didn't take Alpharius' advice on board.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Guilliman didn't take Alpharius' advice on board.

Guilliman was the one who gave Alpharius advice.

 Exergy wrote:
Remember that as Horus was found first, he was taught everything he knew directly from Big E.

Subsequent Primarchs were taught by Horus

Where is this stated? I know Horus was found first and this was certainly the case with Alpharius, who was actually discovered by Horus and not the Emperor, but what makes you believe they were all taught by Horus? In all the lore I've seen the primarchs take command of their legion pretty much immediately after being reunited with the Emperor. Most of them had already been through some form of warfare on their own planets, and each legion's tactics reflects the combat prowess of their primarch. The fact that they all use different tactics should be an indication that they were not all taught by Horus.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
The Heresy didn't happen based on how tempting Chaos is or a bad Warmaster choice. The Emperor in fact caused the heresy by making several missteps. He placed massive power in a few people's hands and then concealed critical information from them that made them more vulnerable and also gave them cause to distrust him.

...Except that Horus didn't fall because of shoddy information, but because Lorgar and Daemon allies had been manipulating everything so Horus would end up stabbed with a tainted weapon (iirc the Laer Blade) that forced him to turn to Chaos or die.

The weapon didn't make him turn, he didn't turn just from fear of death. If he hadn't already had the seeds of doubt in the Emperor and had known who he was dealing with in the warp he'd have refused and died true to the Emperor. The Emperor gave the enemy the tools they needed to subvert Horus.

 CrosisDePurger wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
The Heresy didn't happen based on how tempting Chaos is or a bad Warmaster choice. The Emperor in fact caused the heresy by making several missteps. He placed massive power in a few people's hands and then concealed critical information from them that made them more vulnerable and also gave them cause to distrust him.

...Except that Horus didn't fall because of shoddy information, but because Lorgar and Daemon allies had been manipulating everything so Horus would end up stabbed with a tainted weapon (iirc the Laer Blade) that forced him to turn to Chaos or die.

The weapon didn't make him turn, he didn't turn just from fear of death. If he hadn't already had the seeds of doubt in the Emperor and had known who he was dealing with in the warp he'd have refused and died true to the Emperor. The Emperor gave the enemy the tools they needed to subvert Horus.

It's not fear of death. It's Chaos mindfucking you into service. It's just a matter of how long you can resist before you completely breakdown and cave in.

Can I get a source on the Alpha Legion having one of the fastest growing compliance records?

My understanding has always been that the Alpha Legion had one of the most effective methods for acquiring compliance, but it was also one of the most inefficient. While other legions could conquer a planet in a month with 1000 casualties, the Alpha Legion would conquer a planet in six months with a dozen (Astartes) casualties.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Can I get a source on the Alpha Legion having one of the fastest growing compliance records?

My understanding has always been that the Alpha Legion had one of the most effective methods for acquiring compliance, but it was also one of the most inefficient. While other legions could conquer a planet in a month with 1000 casualties, the Alpha Legion would conquer a planet in six months with a dozen (Astartes) casualties.

Fastest compliance would probably belong to the Night Lords after they became infamous.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Can I get a source on the Alpha Legion having one of the fastest growing compliance records?

My understanding has always been that the Alpha Legion had one of the most effective methods for acquiring compliance, but it was also one of the most inefficient. While other legions could conquer a planet in a month with 1000 casualties, the Alpha Legion would conquer a planet in six months with a dozen (Astartes) casualties.

Fastest compliance would probably belong to the Night Lords after they became infamous.

yeah, when you completely rape a world the next 20 surrender without a shot.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

morpheuschild wrote:
i suppose guilliman would be the obvious choice, but i'd really say that the best would be whichever is quickest to admit their own flaws, and be willing to consider the advice of others based on their own strengths.
the biased part of me says corax, though, he just strikes me as being the coolest and most interesting of the primarchs. he saw corruption and tyranny first-hand for much of his early life, and while he may not have had the best governing skills, he certainly had the integrity needed for the job.
of course, horus also started out with good intentions, and you know what they say about the road to hell...

By your requirements, that is still Guilliman. He is quite willing to note his own flaws and consider advice of even base space marines that are not his inner circle.

Guilliman didn't take Alpharius' advice on board.

Advice which destabilizes a world for a long and painful period? Alpharius fights a good guerilla war, but a very poor empire building war. Alpharius' methods are create insurgent cells which then breeds the grounds for future insurgency.

Legion and other bits read all cool and cloak and dagger, but are poor ways to generate long term stability. They can do that, but they can also just as easily lead to a perpetual state of conflict and rebellion.

There are 2 primarchs that I believe without a doubt would not have fallen. Sanguinius and dorn.

Sangy- he he to devoted, selfless, Honorable.

Dorn-_ he is already half crazy. But its imperium crazy. Good luck chaos gods.

Sanguinus wouldn't have fallen, something that even Horus recognized; the Chaos Gods aren't infallible, at the end of the day their power outside of the warp is limited.

I don't think Sanguinus would have been a good warmaster, though. He was a likable primarch, but there seemed to be a lot of resentment toward him by the man-child Primarchs, and I don't think Sanguinus would have had the heart to do what Russ, Horus or Guilliman would do in morally grey situations.