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 RancidHate wrote:
Okay well, Invisibility might have some hard counters but, I still feel it's broken. However, to remain on topic, here are some counters:

Ork Shooting
Some Necron scythes? (please elaborate)
Kharn
IG FRFSRF
Nova or Beam type psychic attacks

MAybe?

Tesla weapons hot three times for every 6 you roll, most are win linked. They actually "hit" 3.6 times on average for every four Twinlinked shots needing 6s. Tesla is one of the base weapons that will still be extremely effective, it's how tesla can decimate flyers so well.

Im totally up for trying to make a competative karamazov build. Im sure he combos well with conscripts and priests.

 RancidHate wrote:
Okay well, Invisibility might have some hard counters but, I still feel it's broken. However, to remain on topic, here are some counters:

Ork Shooting
Some Necron scythes? (please elaborate)
Kharn
IG FRFSRF
Nova or Beam type psychic attacks

MAybe?

Ork shooting AND Ork CC. Even if my Bikers only hit on a 6, weight of attacks and high T means I'll still be winning most combats against the lists I've seen on Dakka. Opp. will need 4's to hit and 6's to wound with either a 4+ or 5++ save and then 5+ (soon to be 4+?) FNP with non-MC's. I still will be winning combats and running them down. Even with our hilariously outdated 4th ed prices. Next month the Orks will save y'all when our massive points cut happens.

Shoot other stuff? They are unlikely to have two invisibilities in the army.

Also they wont know if they are going to get it until after they move their guys so they are taking a risk.

We dealt with worse than invisibility with the 2+ re-rollables. I am failing to see why this is suddenly so much worse.

Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

That is my point, no one effectively shut down 2+ re-rollables which was limited to two armys. Now that more people can get something similar it suddenly needs to be taken care of?

I say let it ride for now and if it becomes an actual problem once people get out of the 6th edition mindset and get into the 7th edition mindset and lists then we can see.

Of course it needs to be taken care of, highly mobile nigh-invulnerable deathstars have needed taking care of since last edition, when something is a problem and becomes more prevalent it becomes a bigger problem, not a smaller one.

Indeed, however as with all things I think there are better ways to mitigate the units than to change the core rule. I think focus on being mission designer instead.

Create missions where the deathstar can still function but there are not as many incentives to playing as such.

Just be glad that a sorcerer can't manifest invisibility from inside a tank. While repeatedly making the tank invisible.

Hmm...that new invisibility....what the hell?!? Is that just me, or its really OP?

Indeed, however as with all things I think there are better ways to mitigate the units than to change the core rule. I think focus on being mission designer instead.

Create missions where the deathstar can still function but there are not as many incentives to playing as such.

+1. As usual, you provide a voice of reason to counter all the gloom and doom-saying.

7th is still in its infancy. We all need to take a wait-and-see approach before claiming something is completely broken.

Yes, Invisibility seems a bit too good. However, I'll reserve my decision until after ATC and NOVA.

 Lothar wrote:
Hmm...that new invisibility....what the hell?!? Is that just me, or its really OP?

That is the basic idea of this thread.

There is far too much "the sky is falling" from theory crafting. With the dispel pool you always have at least somewhat of a chance to shut down that 1 spell you hate. Like others, the sky isn't falling until you see the same army take all places at the major events.

Am I the only one seeing the rise of a the 50 point Xenos Inquisitor HQ with a null rod? Any army can ally in two of these for 100 points and give two squads immunity to the effects of invisibility. Alternatively, give one of the Xenos Inquisitors a Psyocculum and put him on whatever you want to use to snipe the invis-giver, bs10 for him and his unit when targeting a psyker.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Am I the only one seeing the rise of a the 50 point Xenos Inquisitor HQ with a null rod? Any army can ally in two of these for 100 points and give two squads immunity to the effects of invisibility. Alternatively, give one of the Xenos Inquisitors a Psyocculum and put him on whatever you want to use to snipe the invis-giver, bs10 for him and his unit when targeting a psyker.

Null Rod + Psyocculum and three servo skulls is pretty legit.

However it doesnt affect powers that target other units, only when they themselves are the target of a power. So it doesnt cancel out invis. Also psyocculum makes them BS 10, however snap shots say they are alway bs1 unless something says otherwise, which the ability does not.

In the Meta, unless invisibility is taken by daemon players, it won't remotely matter against players bringing the dark arts...why, because Daemon/CSM combo lists will be camping for two turns spamming up to 20 dice in the pool...

How many invisible units will there be when you can't get a spell off?

How's invisibility handle blast and template weapons?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
How's invisibility handle blast and template weapons?

Blast and Template weapons cannot Snap Shot therefore they can't even target the Invisible Unit.

 Leth wrote:


However it doesnt affect powers that target other units, only when they themselves are the target of a power. So it doesnt cancel out invis. Also psyocculum makes them BS 10, however snap shots say they are alway bs1 unless something says otherwise, which the ability does not.

Am I missing something here? Null Rod states that the unit cannot be affected by any psychic power in any way, how does that not penetrate invis? If your unit is being forced to snap-shoot due to a psychic power, it is being affected by the psychic power... It seems pretty clear that the Null Rod counters invisibility.

Null rod says that the unit can not be TARGETed by powers.

Well, one counter I can think of is for armies that get a decent amount of warp charge points just save them for dispel dice.

As nerfed as Tyranids got, they can still get a lot of charges to dispel with; that's an adequate (if not hard) counter. That's one example.

I still like Invisibility in a mischievous way; Invisibility buffed Wraithguard, get hit only 6s get wounded usually on 6s 3+ save? Yes, Motha-F-in please!

It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Like a second Wraithknight? If someone's planning on abusing Invisibility that probably have a list containing more than 1 threat in it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Like a second Wraithknight? If someone's planning on abusing Invisibility that probably have a list containing more than 1 threat in it.

The most common threat will be Be'lakor though... and he's a solo act.

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

That is my point, no one effectively shut down 2+ re-rollables which was limited to two armys. Now that more people can get something similar it suddenly needs to be taken care of?

I say let it ride for now and if it becomes an actual problem once people get out of the 6th edition mindset and get into the 7th edition mindset and lists then we can see.

Last game I played of 6th my BikerBoss and Lootas took out Flying Fateweaver with Grimore. Weight of attacks, the Orks will save the galaxy from the Demon incursion . . .

 Leth wrote:
Null rod says that the unit can not be TARGETed by powers.

I guess my Rod is better than yours.

Page 57 codex daemon hunters.
A null rod is a power weapon. Any unsaved wounds caused by a null rod inflict instant death on psykers. Furthermore, the bearer (and his squad) cannot be affected by psychic powers (friendly or enemy) in any way.

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, Null Rod, Grimoire of True Names. 55 pts. Add another Ordo Heretics Inquisitor, Null Rod. 105 points that can be added to practically any army that absolutely poops on Demons. Want to get saucy? Give them both Mlvl1 for another 30pts a piece, some of the cheapest warp charges available.

You'd have a very hard time convincing anyone that a Null Rod makes your unit ignore buffs on the enemy unit.

The cheapest warp charges are still a unit of 2 Acolytes and a Psyker in a GK Psyback. 68 points for 2 power dice, and a twin-linked S6 AP4 Heavy 3 gun.

To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.