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My question, as the title says, are world eaters still viable in 7th edition? I understand that there have been some pretty big rule changes, and I have been wanting to start a Chaos Army (Specifically World Eaters) for a while now. I understand that Vehicles are stronger now (which is good, since I would plan on running Rhinos or Land Raiders to run Khorne Berserkers up the field), and that there have been a number of changes to close combat.

Are they still viable? I would either want to go pure Dakka or pure Choppy with a Chaos army. I will be receiving a Codex in the mail next week, and I plan on picking up the new rulebook on Friday.

I'm not great, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.
From the games I've played and the people I've played with I get the feeling CC isn't as good at the moment, but I haven't been able to play any 7th edition yet so I'm not too sure. Unfortunately, CSM's have nice amounts of choppy so this can put them at a bit of a disadvantage. That said, with the 'maximum feth' tactic where you cram everyone into a land raider and powerslide them into CC it can catch your opponent off guard and provide for a good chuckle. But that's not the only way you can get your daily dose of khornate craziness, but I try to avoid assaulting and close combat so maybe i'm not the best qualified to comment. In all seriousness, I've seen world eaters lists do well though and wreak havoc in close combat. And it will be nice to see a change from the endless torrent of Nurgle models and Nurgle lists. Now excuse me, whilst I go make some Nurgle lists.

Khorne Berserkers havn't been viable for...Several editions now really.

I love me some berzerkers, but alas they just aren't good. You might have some luck with khorne marked terimes or bikers and a khorne lord on juggernaut with Aobf but that's about it.

Ok, so I could potentially go Land Raiders with Khorne-marked Terminators + a Terminator Lord? Any Daemons or Longer Range support?


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Oh and perhaps some Chaos Raptors?

"Still" viable? I think they were last viable in 2nd edition. But a Khorne/World Eater themed army is doable.

FallenTemplar wrote:I have been wanting to start a Chaos Army (Specifically World Eaters) for a while now.

Then start a world eaters army. End of.

Not that much changed from 6th to 7th ed for berzerkers, though the new challenge rules did help them a little bit, along with a few other tiny tweaks (to counterattack, for example). But really, they're virtually the same as they were before.

And the way they were before was not the strongest way to run CSM, but they're also grossly underrated. Most people on dakka can't seem to tell the difference between "not the absolute best" and "complete and utter unplayable garbage", and it's no different with CSM or with khorne-based armies.

It is possible to do fine with a world eaters army. If that's what you want to play, then play that. If what you want is the easy win-button, then don't. I guess how you prioritize those two is up to you.

Is there even such a thing as a unit or list that is "complete and utter unplayable garbage" to you, Ailaros?

I'm sure with enough creativity, I could think of something. But with that amount of creativity, I could just deconstruct the rules to find out what units or lists are good for and use them accordingly. The difference between the highest possible power lists and merely reasonably strong lists isn't that wide of a gulf. Certainly not wide enough to single-handedly overcome the fact that a few die rolls are often who wins or loses any particular game. All you need to do is get somewhat close, list-power-wise, and luck and skill can handle the rest.

I swear if dakka as a whole put even half as much energy into coming up with ways of playing the game, rather than coming up with ways to whine about it and get all depressed and mopey about things...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Is there even such a thing as a unit or list that is "complete and utter unplayable garbage" to you, Ailaros?

unbound mandrakes led by the decapitator

Just don't over due the berserkers. use them as fearless scoring units and add support elements.

I Hellpack or whatever its called, the 3 hellbrutes that DS in is great for busting armor. Triple mauler fiends are great now. Heck its not super fluffy but 2 level 3 unmarked sorcerers can fish for invisibility and make large berserker mobs super durable.

They really are not that impressive anymore because its so hard to get them into melee. So really you need to get creative and use support units to get them there in decent numbers.

I will say that filling a bastion up mid field with 20 will keep your opponent the hell away from the center table lol.

If using Maelstrom missions (the lynchpin of the entire edition) they are better than they were before. They are better in the same way all assault armies a better.

Assault armies used to box gunline armies up into a tiny portion of the board while they had free reign over the whole rest. Their downside came from still needing enough things alive at the end of the game to matter. Now they'll have free run of the board, but be scoring points the entire game, whereas the boxed gunline's only hope is a tabling. And getting tabled is pretty easy to prevent if you know that's all that can beat you.

Hey! My army is World Eaters, here's what I think.

6th Edition was rough. Challenges would clog up the inflicted pain from your units, vehicles were easier to pop, MCs were kings of combat, all in all you're lucky to be out of it. The Inexpensive transport, the Rhino, still isn't really viable as you can't assault out of it when you disembark. But with some Look out Sir shenanigans you might be able to tank for your expensive troops.

There are couple cool Khorne combinations you can do and the changes to challenges, flyers, and other things implemented in 7th help out. Khorne stuff can be strong and possibly competitive, but usually expensive like Juggerlords + Spawn, Kharn + zerkers in a Land Raider, and Bloodthirsters. Unless you make some serious mistakes or are facing some very cheesy cheese, you won't get tabled, and you'll probably have many fun games with lots of causalities. It's a great and rewarding army.

Khorne zerks have last been viable in 5 ed. 6 ed made them way worse by default. And 6 ed broken codexes made them not viable for games vs something even close to a ballanced list. However, you could alwayz run khorne zerks with indep in a landraider. They were worse than plague marines even in that role but playable. Though, landraiders are very expensive and since you play chaos, you basically pay ~250 pts for one tl lazcannon and 14-14-14 transport. It's not horrible but not great either.

7 ed came and made lr tougher. Challenges are better for you also. So, all's gona be fine. The only bad part for you is that you'll eventually fail a 2' charge through DT. You can certainly take an icon to reroll charge distance but it's quite expensive.

So, what's playable:
Zerks/Csm+icon in a landraider with indep.
Spawns/Khornate bikers with juggerlord.

If you accompany them with maulerfiends, some deepstriking melta/plazmadrop termies or even plain marines in rhinos you'll be fine. Remember that a landraider is not just a transport and a couple lazcannons that can occasionally shoot, but it's also a great moving BLOS.

Berzerkers were not viable in 6th, and I have trouble seeing how 7th made it any better.

The big issues are survivability and transport.

I realize the transport rules have changed, but it's still too easy to kill a Rhino. Putting them in a Land Raider is way too expensive.

With regards to survivability, it would almost be worth it to have Berzerkers if you could guarantee they will get invisibility. For that, you need Be'lakor, and there's much better things to do with him.

Khorne bezerkers. Right.

20 zerkers with a juggerlord or kharn,

Belakor behind, make them invisible. They'll connect, and cause serious issues.

Failing that, put them in a Spartan tank.

Juggerlord with spawn is still good, as MC's only get one S10 attack now.

Hellbrutes... suck, but the deepstriling trio is ok, and a hellcult gets you a weapon platform with a good save, and some fearless scoring (but not objective secured, so nowhere near as good as before)

Another squad if zerkers in a land raider, raiders are harder to kill now. Two raiders if it will fit. Otherwise maulerfiends.

Ignore anti air, aim to be in combat instead.

The core problems are as follows:

Poor resiliency per point: They cost substantially more than CSMs despite not being at all more durable.
No way to get across the board quickly: Berserkers are not jump infantry, they are not beasts or cavalry nor do they ride on bikes, and the only assault transports in a Chaos Army are incredibly expensive.
Marked and icon'd CSMs do the same job: But cheaper and don't force you to buy a Khorne marked lord if you want them as troops. Berserkers have very tepid improvements over properly outfitted CSMs, whereas Plague marines, Noise marines, and even Rubric Marines have substantial differences compared to their marked counterparts a Berserker...can take an overpriced chain axe and has a little bump to his WS...yay?

If you notice, the assault units people still take are the ones that are fast and relatively durable for what you pay. Wraiths and Seekers are tough for what you pay and speedy as all hell while devastating all they touch with rending hits out the ass. Wraithblades are tough enough to weather a turn of fire after getting out of a transport and still have the punch to wreck things. Assault termies can get right into assault via teleport or Land Raider where they fear just about nothing and hurt just about everything, and even they aren't as popular as they used to be. Nob Bikers are T5 multiwound models with a boatload of S9 AP2 hits, and the option to get an invulnerable save and FNP save while also having all the speed that comes with being bikers. Black Knights again, are tough and durable bikers who hit like a ton of bricks on the charge. Death riders are reasonably tough, fast, and hurty. MANz have cheap assault transports.

Berserkers, much like Genestealers; don't have that.

The best you can do would be berserkers in a raider or spartan, or perhaps using rhinos to block line of sight while charging them across the board.

And then you'll have to ask yourself.

"Why exactly am I not using marked chaos space marines for this and saving the points?"

Also, Berserkers suffer from Power Lance syndrome. Once they're no longer in the first round of assault their effectiveness drops off markedly (a weakness common to Khorne units) due to the decision to relieve them of one extra attack in favor of rage. Once you're into round 2 you go from S5 and four attacks per model (possibly with hatred too) to S4 and two attacks per model. If the first round doesn't go their way, it's probably never going to get better for them. In addition, due to you never wanting to win on your turn, the emphasis on alpha striking can actually be dangerous.

That said, taking Arihman and casting invisibility on an infiltrated Kharne+Beserker blob would be fething hilarious.

Sigh, stop being such a downer, everyone. Berzerkers were plenty "viable" in 6th edition (Here are. a few. examples). They're not uber-power, of course, and they have hard counters, but everything does.

You just have to play a khorne army like a khorne army is supposed to be played, and it can work just fine. It's just not an auto-win button like they were way back in the day of rhino rushing.

For example...

Kain wrote:Poor resiliency per point: They cost substantially more than CSMs despite not being at all more durable.

You're thinking like a nurgle player, not like a khorne player. The point isn't that you take 10% fewer casualties, the point is that you do 15% more damage, so you can take 10% more casualties and still come out ahead.

Fewer berzerkers do more damage than more of other things. The fact that you wind up with fewer of them isn't that big of an issue, usually.

Kain wrote:No way to get across the board quickly: Berserkers are not jump infantry, they are not beasts or cavalry nor do they ride on bikes, and the only assault transports in a Chaos Army are incredibly expensive.

Land raiders are expensive, but they're also great. Huron can also infiltrate them forward. Plus, there's no reason you can't use them as a foot list. Just take a whole lot of them, and some will survive (barring some strange circumstances).

Plus, we're talking about 4's in statline and Sv3+. They are easier to kill than plague marines, but they are much, much more difficult to kill than guardsmen, gaunts, boyz, etc. etc.

Kain wrote:Marked and icon'd CSMs do the same job: But cheaper and don't force you to buy a Khorne marked lord if you want them as troops.. a Berserker...can take an overpriced chain axe and has a little bump to his WS...yay?

Berzerkers move from hitting on 4+'s to hitting on 3+'s, and are still only hit on 4's by things with WS5. That's not the most minor thing in the world. They also get furious charge, which means the champion gets a 4-shot lascannon that hits rear armor, and they're wounding basically everything on 2's and 3's. Put those together, and against MEq, a regular CSM kills .25 to MOK CSM's .333 to a berzerker's .6. A berzerker is nearly twice as good as a MOK CSM in this case. That's not a trivial increase in killing power. That is, of course, doubled AGAIN on models with chainaxes vs. Sv4+. The only reason that chainaxes are a bad upgrade is because you're already doing such ludicrous damage that you're likely just investing in overkill.

And they get fearless standard, which means they don't loose it if they lose their icon, and they don't need to waste their icon on an IoV, which is good, because IoW comes at a discount for berzerkers.

And forgive me if being forced to buy a AoBF juggerlord doesn't sound like much of a tax.

And, on top of this, don't forget that berzerkers are the cheapest god warrior, which means you get to take more of them. Which means more durability AND more killing power.

Kain wrote:If you notice, the assault units people still take are the ones that are fast and relatively durable for what you pay.

Once again, you're thinking like a nurgle player, not a khorne player. Plus, I highly doubt you're comparing those units points-wise appropriately. Yes, a 800 point nob biker+warboss squad is going to be more durable than 115 points of berzerkers...

Plus, let's not forget either that, unlike most other options, berzerkers also score, and take a much more laissez-faire attitude towards plasma and melta guns.

Kain wrote:Also, Berserkers suffer from Power Lance syndrome. Once they're no longer in the first round of assault their effectiveness drops off markedly (a weakness common to Khorne units) due to the decision to relieve them of one extra attack in favor of rage. Once you're into round 2 you go from S5 and four attacks per model (possibly with hatred too) to S4 and two attacks per model. If the first round doesn't go their way, it's probably never going to get better for them. In addition, due to you never wanting to win on your turn, the emphasis on alpha striking can actually be dangerous.

Yes, this is a real liability for berzerkers. It is somewhat offset by the IoW and by the fact that most people won't want to face off against berzerkers, even not on the charge, which makes it more likely you'll get the charge in.

As for surviving into the second round of combat, there never will be a second round of combat. Or, at least, rarely (especially now that challenges have changed). 20 khrone berzerkers charging into stuff tend not to leave survivors for round 2. Once again, it's a matter of thinking like a khorne player - fast, bloody, and decisive - rather than like a nurgle player - slow, durable, attrition.

There are a few things you do need to look out for. Units that are both crazy fast, and crazy good in close combat. Thankfully, there aren't ALL that many of them out there, and that's what you have your support units for.

It's ironic Alairos, that you accused Kain of not comparing units point-wise for durability (without even being sure that he hadn't) yet in the same post suggest that Foot Bezerkers are more durable than Gants or Guardsmen because of the stat line.

You can take 5 termagants for every Bezerkers. Line up your thirty foot Bezerkers with 140 Gants and tell me which one is going down first.

In an era where space marines aren't very good, you are taking space marines who as a package are worse than vanilla marines, in a dex that is for the most part just a worse version of the vanilla marine dex. Playing viable CSM involves taking the units that don't fall into this category and aren't just worse versions of vanilla marines, such as Plague Marines. Sorry OP, but viable isn't the right word for Khorne Marines.

However, if you like the army, play it, it does do something different to other versions and wins in a different way. You could do much worse, at least you can build Assault CSM with coherency and very defined strengths. It's not going to be as bad as Rubrick marines.

What are your thoughts about the new possibilities: Daemons on Rhinos and Land Raiders? This will of course apply to other Daemons besides Bloodletters but a Spartan full of Bloodletters could be interesting...

Also as single Hull points are even more important now the Warpsmith has his utility boosted as he can now restore Hull points of allied vehicles - for example the Soul Grinder. Interesting conversations could be made for a Khorne Warpsmith which specializes in Soul Grinders.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Is there even such a thing as a unit or list that is "complete and utter unplayable garbage" to you, Ailaros?

probably mandrakes, only gw can make mandrakes work it's called stacking a deck in a batrep

Out of curiosity, I was under the impression that you can't start a game with a unit already deployed in a transport unless said transport was dedicated.

So how are you infiltrating a squad of beserkers in a land raider? Beserkers can't take land raiders as dedicated transports.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Out of curiosity, I was under the impression that you can't start a game with a unit already deployed in a transport unless said transport was dedicated.

So how are you infiltrating a squad of beserkers in a land raider? Beserkers can't take land raiders as dedicated transports.

The only limitation of the sort is deploying in someone else's dedicated transports. Non-dedicated ones don't care

 Ailaros wrote:
Sigh, stop being such a downer, everyone. Berzerkers were plenty "viable" in 6th edition (Here are. a few. examples). They're not uber-power, of course, and they have hard counters, but everything does.

You just have to play a khorne army like a khorne army is supposed to be played, and it can work just fine. It's just not an auto-win button like they were way back in the day of rhino rushing.

For example...

Kain wrote:Poor resiliency per point: They cost substantially more than CSMs despite not being at all more durable.

You're thinking like a nurgle player, not like a khorne player. The point isn't that you take 10% fewer casualties, the point is that you do 15% more damage, so you can take 10% more casualties and still come out ahead.

Fewer berzerkers do more damage than more of other things. The fact that you wind up with fewer of them isn't that big of an issue, usually.

Kain wrote:No way to get across the board quickly: Berserkers are not jump infantry, they are not beasts or cavalry nor do they ride on bikes, and the only assault transports in a Chaos Army are incredibly expensive.

Land raiders are expensive, but they're also great. Huron can also infiltrate them forward.

Unless land raiders are dedicated transports they don't benefit from infiltrate