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Zodiark wrote:
This point is hotly in contention and will most likely need an FAQ as the sides are two entrenched to agree.

It's not really in contention at all. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that this is how the rules should work. The argument is just over the insistence from a couple of people that the rules already say that when they don't.

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
This point is hotly in contention and will most likely need an FAQ as the sides are two entrenched to agree.

It's not really in contention at all. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that this is how the rules should work. The argument is just over the insistence from a couple of people that the rules already say that when they don't.

Yeah I'm not seeing that at all here in fact. You are still of the opinion that a Psyker in a mixed unit is no longer a Psyker and therefore no Mastery charges are applied when in fact they are as you look at all Psyker units on the board, and he is still a Psyker unit, even when in a mixed unit, hence the term "mixed" unit which defines a unit composition of multiple types.

Zodiark wrote:
You are still of the opinion that a Psyker in a mixed unit is no longer a Psyker...

I have no idea where you are getting that idea. I have never been of the opinion that a psyker in a mixed unit is no longer a psyker.

Nor have I ever claimed that a psyker in a mixed unit would not receive charges for his mastery. I merely pointed out that this was the outcome of your claim that the mixed unit is not a Psyker Unit.

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
You are still of the opinion that a Psyker in a mixed unit is no longer a Psyker...

I have no idea where you are getting that idea. I have never been of the opinion that a psyker in a mixed unit is no longer a psyker.

Nor have I ever claimed that a psyker in a mixed unit would not receive charges for his mastery. I merely pointed out that this was the outcome of your claim that the mixed unit is not a Psyker Unit.

O.O I may have the wrong person then, in that case I apologize. But my claim that a mixed unit is not a Psyker unit is true unless it is a unit with the special rule BoP, simply putting a Librarian with my Tac Marines does not make their unit Psyker. Until I see otherwise I'll stick with this. (I admit, I should have clarified better, sometimes I get ahead of myself)

To answer op's question then.

By your own statement just now, since a Psyker in a mixed unit is still a Psyker, he keeps his Mastery Levels and applies them when generating warp charges. So the OP's question on an IC joining a unit, it would thus allow him to do this. The rule gets a little foggy when you add the Psyker to a unit with BoP but you would still count his Mastery Level separately and then the BoP Mastery Level which would be 1 as the original Psyker never loses these and as it is on the table, is taken into account when generating Warp Charges as per BRB as well as when being selected to resolve a Psychic power, as per BRB.

Zodiark wrote:
By your own statement just now, since a Psyker in a mixed unit is still a Psyker, he keeps his Mastery Levels and applies them when generating warp charges.

You keep coming back to this point, and it's still just as incorrect now as it was the first time.

If the unit is not a psyker unit, the psyker will not count for generating charges, because charges are calculated based on psyker units, not psykers.

But according to the BRB... there is no difference between a psyker and a psyker unit.

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker Unit' refer to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or BoP/S special Rules."

Thus stating that both those terms are equavalent and can refer to any case of those rules.

And according to the Psyker rule "A model with this special rule is a Psyker"

So if a model with that rule is a Psyker, and Psyker, and Psyker Unit are the same thing. Then any model with that rules is a 'Psyker Unit' unto itself regardless of whether it is part of or joined to another unit.

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'biscuit' and 'snack' refer to any unit with the 'Cookie' special Rules."

That doesn't mean that 'biscuit' and 'snack' are synonymous. It just means that anytime you see either of those terms, it means 'cookie'. A rule that specifically addresses snacks would have no effect on a cookie listed only as a biscuit and not a snack.

 insaniak wrote:
"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'biscuit' and 'snack' refer to any unit with the 'Cookie' special Rules."

That doesn't mean that 'biscuit' and 'snack' are synonymous. It just means that anytime you see either of those terms, it means 'cookie'. A rule that specifically addresses snacks would have no effect on a cookie listed only as a biscuit and not a snack.

But if you are given no rule to distinguish them, 'biscuit' and 'snack' have no separate meaning. Thus they can't be anything but the same thing.

And even if they are not, you are still left with fact that A Model, can be defined as a Psyker, and according to that rule at the begining of the Psychic chapter, a Psyker is a unit with (one of those rules).

Therefore a model with the Psyker rule is a unit. By RAW.

chanceafs wrote:
But according to the BRB... there is no difference between a psyker and a psyker unit.

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker Unit' refer to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or BoP/S special Rules."

Thus stating that both those terms are equavalent and can refer to any case of those rules.

And according to the Psyker rule "A model with this special rule is a Psyker"

So if a model with that rule is a Psyker, and Psyker, and Psyker Unit are the same thing. Then any model with that rules is a 'Psyker Unit' unto itself regardless of whether it is part of or joined to another unit.

Close its telling us that we can basically apply the words psyker, BOP or psychic pilot where they are needed.

So generating a warp charge can be read:
Select a psyker unit or select a psyker

Meaning that where people are complaining that a mixed unit can generate WC points it can becuase we can select a Psyker.

They are just litterally stating they are being lazy and can't be bothered to write everything out over and over

chanceafs wrote:
And even if they are not, you are still left with fact that A Model, can be defined as a Psyker, and according to that rule at the begining of the Psychic chapter, a Psyker is a unit with (one of those rules).

Therefore a model with the Psyker rule is a unit. By RAW.

Therein lies the problem. 'Psyker' is a rule that is applied to models, but the new psychic rules deal with units with the Psyker rule.

If you treat every model with the Psyker rule as a unit in its own right, you run into all of the problems outlined earlier in the thread. It just doesn't work.


What I suspect that rule should have said is that the terms 'psyker' and 'psyker unit' refer to models with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot rule, or squads with the Brotherhood rule.

That sidesteps the whole 'unit' issue. All of your Independant Character psykers would generate charges regardless of whether or not they are with units, and mixed units would only care about the actual psykers in them,


Instead, what we have is a big ol' mess.

 insaniak wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
And even if they are not, you are still left with fact that A Model, can be defined as a Psyker, and according to that rule at the begining of the Psychic chapter, a Psyker is a unit with (one of those rules).

Therefore a model with the Psyker rule is a unit. By RAW.

Therein lies the problem. 'Psyker' is a rule that is applied to models, but the new psychic rules deal with units with the Psyker rule.

If you treat every model with the Psyker rule as a unit in its own right, you run into all of the problems outlined earlier in the thread. It just doesn't work.


What I suspect that rule should have said is that the terms 'psyker' and 'psyker unit' refer to models with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot rule, or squads with the Brotherhood rule.

That sidesteps the whole 'unit' issue. All of your Independant Character psykers would generate charges regardless of whether or not they are with units, and mixed units would only care about the actual psykers in them,


Instead, what we have is a big ol' mess.

The game does work though and very well.

So if we do as we are told and every time we see psyker or psychic pilot we apply psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot evrything flows smooth.

pg. 22 Number of psychic Powers
"The Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot )knows a number of psychic powers equal to his mastery level"... fine

Pg. 23 Generating psychic powers
"Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot ) generate their psychic powers before the game begins"
"in some army list entries, a Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot) will have more than one specified psychic power listed"
"Otherwise a Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot) generate a random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines know to him"
"A psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot) cannot know the same psychic power twice"
"Immediatley after generating a psychic power, a Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot) can always choose to substitute the power generated for the disciplines primaris power"
"if a Psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot) has choosen all the powers from the same psychic discipline to gain the Pyschic focus, he will already know that discplines primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers"
That is all fine

pg24. Generating Warp Charge
"At the beginning of each psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their warp charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Level of all the Psyker Unit (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot ) they currently have on the tabletop and adds that many dice to their warp charge pool"
Select Psyker and Psychic Power
"Select one of your psyker units (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot )"

pg. 25 Take a psychic test
"For each individual result of 4+, the psyker (psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot ) has successfully harnessed one warp charge point. If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic powers descriptions, the psychic test is successful"
"If, when making a psychic test, two or more dice rolls were rolls of a 6, the unit attempting to manifest the psychic suffers a Perils of the Warp" - Dont know where people are getting you take a perils twice from :/

So yeh when told what to do we are fine all the way through following RAW.

But I know I'm right and you know your right so this argument is going to keep on going and going. I have emailed GW so hopefully we will have a resolution some time soon hopefully (Where they show im right .

Have fun continuing to argue I'm out of this one peace out and enjoy

- Removed by insaniak. This sort of comment adds nothing constructive to the discussion -

katana100 wrote:
The game does work though and very well.

So if we do as we are told and every time we see psyker or psychic pilot we apply psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot evrything flows smooth.

Except that's not what we are told. You have paraphrased the rule in a way that rather drastically changes its application.

All of your examples are incorrect, because you are trying to apply the rule to individual models, when the rule actually applies to units.

 insaniak wrote:

katana100 wrote:
The game does work though and very well.

So if we do as we are told and every time we see psyker or psychic pilot we apply psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot evrything flows smooth.

Except that's not what we are told. You have paraphrased the rule in a way that rather drastically changes its application.

All of your examples are incorrect, because you are trying to apply the rule to individual models, when the rule actually applies to units.

To reiterate for the upteenth time, we are told to select individual Pyskers as well as Psyker units. An individual Psyker NEVER stops being a Psyker unit in its own right, even if it is in a mixed unit with others. I will reiterate once again which I have realized is literally beating a dead horse that simply because you do not see it the same way, does not make it wrong. We as players read the BRB and this is what WE understand from the RAW. Until you can excite explicitly where we cannot count an individual Psyker as a Psyker when in a mixed unit, when literally, at least for me, every single person I have played with since I began has played it this way, some have laughed flat out with looks of disgust when I discuss some of the opinions on this particular forum.

They have stated, which I have come to accept as a general truth. "Some people just want to play the game how they think it should be played, rather than how the game was meant to be played. You are better off ignoring these people and moving on"

I'm thinking about doing that here because there is a small circle of players here who have failed to cite any rules to counter the concept of counting all Psykers, regardless of individual units and a group that is a unit, as remember, an individual model is still counted as a unit and a mixed unit counts as multiple units. The majority of players I have encountered in regards to this have also agreed and, when we all read RAW we came to the same conclusion because the BRB DOES NOT state otherwise, that you count EVERY Psyker unit, individual, grouped unit or mixed group as a Psyker and count ALL mastery levels of ALL Psyker units on the table.

This includes BoP units who count as Mastery Level one as per BRB as well as the Psyker himself who joins that particular group, for example my Mastery Level 2 Librarian, which if this was all that was on the table gives me 3 WC before I roll the dice. Not 1 charge for the unit only and not 2 for the Librarian only, which explicitly answers the ops question which you yourself have failed to answer with actual citations from the text numerous times.

The burden of proof, is now on you as more players have joined this discussion and have come to the same conclusion, dissenting opinions must now begin to prove their point or concede the debate.

By the way. As per RAW. A unit has multiple meanings. It refers to a group of models that composes one "unit" most players I know simply call them squads to avoid ridiculus discussions like these and Individual units that do not need to be grouped with others i.e., Librarians, Company Masters, Vehicles etc (any model with a unit composition of 1)

So again, to answer the ops original statement.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I am planning to run an ork list involving Weirdboyz and Daemonology since i want to see how badly i'll nuke my brains before the new dex hits lol.

Couple of things i coulda sworn i saw, but cant seem to find might jack up my strat though. If anyone could help me find it i'd be grateful.
1) Psyker phase says a unit may not manifest the same spell twice. What about ICs in that unit? Or in my case, two ICs with psyker powers in the same unit? Contemplating bringing a 2nd weirdboy for backup spellcasting case my first one fails.

Any help would be appreciative.

The IC that is joined with a unit or by himself would still be able to cast the spell. For example, I have two Librarians in one group, they would both be able to cast the same spells and both of their Mastery Levels would be added together when determining WC. Until this is DIRECTLY stated otherwise in the BRB which I know it will not be, this is how you should play it.

Remember, when you join a Psyker to a unit with BoP, you would count the entire unit of BoP as Mastery Level 1 as stated RAW as well as the Psykers Mastery Level


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

katana100 wrote:
The game does work though and very well.

So if we do as we are told and every time we see psyker or psychic pilot we apply psyker, BoS, Psychic pilot evrything flows smooth.

All of your examples are incorrect, because you are trying to apply the rule to individual models, when the rule actually applies to [i]units[/i[i][u]].

I felt the need to reiterate again. See highlighted area.

You are referring to a group of models making up one unit. For example, a squad of tac marines is one unit. But Individual models are still considered units as per BRB, IIRC its right at the beginning when it defines what a unit is.

Further point.

When properly using and understanding the English language certain things become clear when looking at the word "Unit"

You would not say, I have 10 units of Tactical Marines if you were talking about a full squad of Tactical Marines which cap at 10. You would say I have 1 unit of 10 Tactical Marines. Do you see the proper use? Unit can mean singular as in I have one Librarian or plural, I have 1 unit of Tactical Marines. The devil is in the details.

Quoting from 6th edition BRB because I know the definition hasn't changed.

"A Unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered a unit in its own right." Pg 3 under units.

Quoting from 7th edition.

""A Unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered a unit in its own right." First paragraph under the sub-heading units under the heading Forming a Unit.

Zodiark wrote:
To reiterate for the upteenth time, we are told to select individual Pyskers as well as Psyker units. An individual Psyker NEVER stops being a Psyker unit in its own right, even if it is in a mixed unit with others.

If you are treating him as a Psyker unit, when you have stated that the mixed unit is not a Psyker unit, how are you treating him as part of the unit for all rules purposes?

They have stated, which I have come to accept as a general truth. "Some people just want to play the game how they think it should be played, rather than how the game was meant to be played. You are better off ignoring these people and moving on"

I'm curious. Could you explain what value this added to the discussion, other than an attempt to make people feel bad?

I'm thinking about doing that here because there is a small circle of players here who have failed to cite any rules to counter the concept of counting all Psykers, regardless of individual units and a group that is a unit, as remember, an individual model is still counted as a unit and a mixed unit counts as multiple units.

...
You've utterly failed to prove that the 40k rules have a concept of multiple units inside one unit. You've utterly failed to prove your assertions that an IC joined to a unit is still a unit by himself. And yet you still assert this as fact. Please actually prove it - for once.
The IC rules - that have been cited in the past - prove those assertions incorrect.

count ALL mastery levels of ALL Psyker units on the table.

You've stated that an IC in a non-Psyker unit is not a Psyker unit.
If you count the ICs MLs you're not treating him as a part of the mixed unit for a rules purpose (if you were you couldn't count him). Please cite permission to do so. For once.

The burden of proof, is now on you as more players have joined this discussion and have come to the same conclusion, dissenting opinions must now begin to prove their point or concede the debate.

No matter how many people join the debate, unless they actually prove their assertions their voices are useless.
Please prove you're allowed to count a Psyker IC when he's not part of a Psyker unit.

By the way. As per RAW. A unit has multiple meanings. It refers to a group of models that composes one "unit" most players I know simply call them squads to avoid ridiculus discussions like these and Individual units that do not need to be grouped with others i.e., Librarians, Company Masters, Vehicles etc (any model with a unit composition of 1)

That's not multiple meanings. That's showing that the word unit can refer to any sized grouping of models, from 1 to infinity.

The IC that is joined with a unit or by himself would still be able to cast the spell. For example, I have two Librarians in one group, they would both be able to cast the same spells and both of their Mastery Levels would be added together when determining WC. Until this is DIRECTLY stated otherwise in the BRB which I know it will not be, this is how you should play it.

So it's not RAW, but how you should play it. And yet you asserted that this is RAW. That's an interesting position. Perhaps you should clarify your point.

Remember, when you join a Psyker to a unit with BoP, you would count the entire unit of BoP as Mastery Level 1 as stated RAW as well as the Psykers Mastery Level

Yes, per the rules it's a single ML1 unit - the IC adds nothing.

You are referring to a group of models making up one unit. For example, a squad of tac marines is one unit. But Individual models are still considered units as per BRB, IIRC its right at the beginning when it defines what a unit is.

Individual models can be units.
Your interpretation would mean that a 10 man Tac squad has 11 units and I can fire at the heavy weapon and special weapon guy, ignoring the rest of the unit. The rules do not support that position.

When properly using and understanding the English language certain things become clear when looking at the word "Unit"

Unnecessarily antagonizing.

You would not say, I have 10 units of Tactical Marines if you were talking about a full squad of Tactical Marines which cap at 10. You would say I have 1 unit of 10 Tactical Marines. Do you see the proper use? Unit can mean singular as in I have one Librarian or plural, I have 1 unit of Tactical Marines. The devil is in the details.

Yes, unit can mean singular. That does not mean that every single model is always, without fail, a unit.

Define mixed unit please.

You once again provided no citations from the BRB so I will acknowledge nothing you have said until you do.

Actually nevermind, I don't really care. I am more than confident in the RAW and to me the answer is obvious. It is not my job to prove how or why this is correct. It is your job to prove that these are wrong. You have failed to do this on multiple occasions in multiple discussions.

To reiterate.

You play how you play, I'll play how I play because one side won't listen to anything that isn't a specific statement of such and the other accepts the RAW as they were written and is not being confused by the way they were written.

Any further discussion between me and you from this point on in this thread is simply spam and will be reported.

Have a nice day!

Zodiark wrote:
Define mixed unit please.

A Psyker IC in a non Psyker unit.

You once again provided no citations from the BRB so I will acknowledge nothing you have said until you do.

I've explained why. All the relevant rules have been quoted and you've ignored them. I'm not going to waste my time requiring more rules for you to ignore.

And you didn't quote a single rule in the post I was replying to - but you did contradict yourself and have declined to address that fact.
You also used some very antagonistic sentences that I don't think actually added to the discussion - care to explain what they added? I'm honestly curious.

IC rules - the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. Have a rules purpose and want to treat him as something other than part of the unit he joined? Cite the allowance. You've declined to do so as of this writing. Instead you've waxed theoretical about Mini and Macro units, and that every model is also a unit in itself...

Zodiark wrote:
To reiterate for the upteenth time, we are told to select individual Pyskers as well as Psyker units.

Really?

The rule in question again:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

So... No, we're not told to look at individual Psykers at all. When you are generating your Warp Charge, you just count the Psyker units.

An individual Psyker NEVER stops being a Psyker unit in its own right, even if it is in a mixed unit with others.

That's correct. However if you argue (as you have) that a unit of non-psykers with a Psyker in it is not a Psyker unit, then any rule that refers to Psyker units will not apply to that unit.

They have stated, which I have come to accept as a general truth. "Some people just want to play the game how they think it should be played, rather than how the game was meant to be played. You are better off ignoring these people and moving on"

So you're also ignoring the part where I already pointed out that we agree on how this probably should be played?

The sole issue here in this thread is with the fact that the wording used in the Psychic rules is rubbish, and as a result the psychic rules don't actually work without some modification from the players.

The majority of players I have encountered in regards to this have also agreed and, when we all read RAW we came to the same conclusion because the BRB DOES NOT state otherwise, that you count EVERY Psyker unit, individual, grouped unit or mixed group as a Psyker and count ALL mastery levels of ALL Psyker units on the table.

This rule says otherwise:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

The burden of proof, is now on you as more players have joined this discussion and have come to the same conclusion, dissenting opinions must now begin to prove their point or concede the debate

No problem. Since it doesn't appear to have been mentioned yet, how about this:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

By the way. As per RAW. A unit has multiple meanings. It refers to a group of models that composes one "unit" most players I know simply call them squads to avoid ridiculus discussions like these and Individual units that do not need to be grouped with others i.e., Librarians, Company Masters, Vehicles etc (any model with a unit composition of 1)

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's the cause of the entire problem.

Because:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

Remember, when you join a Psyker to a unit with BoP, you would count the entire unit of BoP as Mastery Level 1 as stated RAW as well as the Psykers Mastery Level

Why?

But Individual models are still considered units as per BRB,

No they're not.

A unit can consist of a single model. A single model is not automatically a unit.

And if you were correct, the game would break. We've already discussed earlier in the thread the problems created if you assume that a single model can belong to multiple units at the same time. It just doesn't work that way.

rigeld2 wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
Define mixed unit please.

A Psyker IC in a non Psyker unit.

You once again provided no citations from the BRB so I will acknowledge nothing you have said until you do.

I've explained why. All the relevant rules have been quoted and you've ignored them. I'm not going to waste my time requiring more rules for you to ignore.

And you didn't quote a single rule in the post I was replying to - but you did contradict yourself and have declined to address that fact.
You also used some very antagonistic sentences that I don't think actually added to the discussion - care to explain what they added? I'm honestly curious.

IC rules - the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. Have a rules purpose and want to treat him as something other than part of the unit he joined? Cite the allowance. You've declined to do so as of this writing. Instead you've waxed theoretical about Mini and Macro units, and that every model is also a unit in itself...

Reported for argumentative.

I have read through every rule posted in this topic and nothing counters the following:

Unless a rule specifically states that a Psyker IC in a non-Psyker unit or even in a Psyker unit stops being a Psyker unit, he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per rules. The example was cited earlier in the thread but I'll paraphrase for you to save you a search.

When determining WC add the ML of all Psykers on the table, this includes those inside of a transport. A mixed unit is defined as you said as a Psyker unit with a non-psyker unit. The transport is not a Psyker unit unless stated otherwise therefore you would still count the Psyker's ML in this unit combination for WC and he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per normal.

When attempting to cast a Psyker power, you select any Psyker unit you have, this is a grouped unit of Psykers such as those with BoP or an individual Psyker unit, IC. It doesn't say you cannot choose an IC that is in a mixed unit anywhere in the description for selecting a Psyker and because it does not state that you cannot do something, we can.

Again. I have paraphrased from the BRB, find a ruling that specifically states that I cannot use an IC in a mixed unit to apply his ML to my WC or cast a Psyker power and I will concede.

Until then, again, I will report anything you post in response to me that does not further contribute to the discussion.

This means no more trying to flip the discussion around asking me to prove something, this is no more having me cite something, this is no more disagreeing simply because you think its RAI and not RAW. RAW means RAW. If it is not written in a negative, then it is a positive which literally means, if the book says you cannot do something, then you can.

Actual citations from the text or Faq's please or do not respond.

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
To reiterate for the upteenth time, we are told to select individual Pyskers as well as Psyker units.

Really?

The rule in question again:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

So... No, we're not told to look at individual Psykers at all. When you are generating your Warp Charge, you just count the Psyker units.

An individual Psyker NEVER stops being a Psyker unit in its own right, even if it is in a mixed unit with others.

That's correct. However if you argue (as you have) that a unit of non-psykers with a Psyker in it is not a Psyker unit, then any rule that refers to Psyker units will not apply to that unit.

They have stated, which I have come to accept as a general truth. "Some people just want to play the game how they think it should be played, rather than how the game was meant to be played. You are better off ignoring these people and moving on"

So you're also ignoring the part where I already pointed out that we agree on how this probably should be played?

The sole issue here in this thread is with the fact that the wording used in the Psychic rules is rubbish, and as a result the psychic rules don't actually work without some modification from the players.

The majority of players I have encountered in regards to this have also agreed and, when we all read RAW we came to the same conclusion because the BRB DOES NOT state otherwise, that you count EVERY Psyker unit, individual, grouped unit or mixed group as a Psyker and count ALL mastery levels of ALL Psyker units on the table.

This rule says otherwise:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

The burden of proof, is now on you as more players have joined this discussion and have come to the same conclusion, dissenting opinions must now begin to prove their point or concede the debate

No problem. Since it doesn't appear to have been mentioned yet, how about this:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

By the way. As per RAW. A unit has multiple meanings. It refers to a group of models that composes one "unit" most players I know simply call them squads to avoid ridiculus discussions like these and Individual units that do not need to be grouped with others i.e., Librarians, Company Masters, Vehicles etc (any model with a unit composition of 1)

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's the cause of the entire problem.

Because:

The Rulebook wrote:
...Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.

Remember, when you join a Psyker to a unit with BoP, you would count the entire unit of BoP as Mastery Level 1 as stated RAW as well as the Psykers Mastery Level

Why?

But Individual models are still considered units as per BRB,

No they're not.

A unit can consist of a single model. A single model is not automatically a unit.

And if you were correct, the game would break. We've already discussed earlier in the thread the problems created if you assume that a single model can belong to multiple units at the same time. It just doesn't work that way.

You seriously are not getting it and so I respond to you the same as the other poster.

This is nothing more than argumentative.

To quote you:

".Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all of the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked in Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool."

Tell me, where does it say anywhere in there that IC Psykers are not units?

As has been established, a mixed unit is a unit with a Psyker and non-psykers mixed together, how then are you finding, within the rules, not your interpretation or your opinion, but within the rules, a way to deny a Psyker within a mixed unit his WC?

Since you have failed to answer all the questions I posted I will respond in kind.

1. As has been established, a mixed unit is a unit with a Psyker and non-psykers mixed together, how then are you finding, within the rules, not your interpretation or your opinion, but within the rules, a way to deny a Psyker within a mixed unit his WC?


When you find a rule that states that you cannot do this, I will concede the debate and we can all move on. But I know that you cannot because there is no such ruling in the BRB.

Your final point, a unit can be a single model or multiple models. An Independent character is a single model that, simply for rule purposes i.e., when targeting a unit so the defending player does not have to consistently refer back to his charts for the individual stats of each unit within the overall unit composition. For example, shooting, it simplifies the process, yet in the assault phase, if you are assaulting with said unit, your IC stats would then be applied as well as the unit he is in.

You have again, failed to prove that an IC Psyker stops being an IC Psyker by joining a unit as this is what a mixed unit is referred as per the definition provided earlier.

Once again I ask, where is your proof within the rules that proves otherwise.

Have a nice day!

Edited so as not to spam.

Zodiark wrote:
Reported for argumentative.

Don't spam the report system. The fact that you disagree with someone's point of view doesn't mean they are breaking the rules.

Unless a rule specifically states that a Psyker IC in a non-Psyker unit or even in a Psyker unit stops being a Psyker unit, he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per rules.

The Rulebook: Independent Character wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of the unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

If you are treating him in any way as a separate unit to the unit he is joined to, then you are not counting him as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

The example was cited earlier in the thread but I'll paraphrase for you to save you a search.

When determining WC add the ML of all Psykers on the table, this includes those inside of a transport.

And that's the problem with paraphrasing - if done carelessly, it completely changes the rule.

Again, you add the ML of all Psyker units, not all Psykers.

A mixed unit is defined as you said as a Psyker unit with a non-psyker unit.

There can not be two units in that scenario, particularly if they are in a transport, since a transport can only carry a single unit at any given time.

...r and because it does not state that you cannot do something, we can.

Excellent. At the start of my Psychic Phase, before determining Warp Points, my Psyker holds up a placard that says 'I win' and the game immediately ends.

Again. I have paraphrased from the BRB, find a ruling that specifically states that I cannot use an IC in a mixed unit to apply his ML to my WC or cast a Psyker power and I will concede.

The Rulebook: Independent Character wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of the unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Your entire argument in this thread has been built around the flawed idea that an IC joined to another unit is somehow still a separate unit. This is simply not possible within the Warhammer 40K rules. As has been pointed out already, it would mean that you would be able to shoot at the IC despite being joined to the squad. It would mean that the squad and joined IC would be unable to board transports and enter buildings. It completely breaks when you try to join multiple ICs to the same unit...

When an IC joins a unit, he is a part of that unit for all rules purposes. That means that he is no longer considered a separate unit... because if you consider him a separate unit, you are not considering him a part of his new unit for all rules purposes.


What you are arguing for, which is the same as what most everyone else in this thread agreed with as probably RAI, is a perfectly reasonable way to play it. It's simply not supported by the rules as they currently stand.

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
Reported for argumentative.

Don't spam the report system. The fact that you disagree with someone's point of view doesn't mean they are breaking the rules.

Unless a rule specifically states that a Psyker IC in a non-Psyker unit or even in a Psyker unit stops being a Psyker unit, he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per rules.

The Rulebook: Independent Character wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of the unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

If you are treating him in any way as a separate unit to the unit he is joined to, then you are not counting him as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

The example was cited earlier in the thread but I'll paraphrase for you to save you a search.

When determining WC add the ML of all Psykers on the table, this includes those inside of a transport.

And that's the problem with paraphrasing - if done carelessly, it completely changes the rule.

Again, you add the ML of all Psyker units, not all Psykers.

A mixed unit is defined as you said as a Psyker unit with a non-psyker unit.

There can not be two units in that scenario, particularly if they are in a transport, since a transport can only carry a single unit at any given time.

...r and because it does not state that you cannot do something, we can.

Excellent. At the start of my Psychic Phase, before determining Warp Points, my Psyker holds up a placard that says 'I win' and the game immediately ends.

Again. I have paraphrased from the BRB, find a ruling that specifically states that I cannot use an IC in a mixed unit to apply his ML to my WC or cast a Psyker power and I will concede.

The Rulebook: Independent Character wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of the unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Your entire argument in this thread has been built around the flawed idea that an IC joined to another unit is somehow still a separate unit. This is simply not possible within the Warhammer 40K rules. As has been pointed out already, it would mean that you would be able to shoot at the IC despite being joined to the squad. It would mean that the squad and joined IC would be unable to board transports and enter buildings. It completely breaks when you try to join multiple ICs to the same unit...

When an IC joins a unit, he is a part of that unit for all rules purposes. That means that he is no longer considered a separate unit... because if you consider him a separate unit, you are not considering him a part of his new unit for all rules purposes.


What you are arguing for, which is the same as what most everyone else in this thread agreed with as probably RAI, is a perfectly reasonable way to play it. It's simply not supported by the rules as they currently stand.

For the final time because you still have yet to cite a rule.

Show me IN THE TEXT, NOT YOUR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. [i][b] That he ceases to be a Psyker unit within a mixed unit. For all purposes of the game he is a Psyker unit, the RAW stats Psyker units, plural meaning more than one, he is still a Psyker unit until a rule specifically states otherwise. This is not RAI this is RAW and Rules as Taught by those who have taken the time to actually read and understand them so they may teach and advise others.

As for there not being two units in a transport together, utter hogwash. You can join an IC to a unit and place them in the exact same transport. When you disembark you also have the choice to have them disembark together as the mixed unit they were in the transport or have them disembark separately then you would need to keep them 2" apart from one another. This I know for a fact to be true as I just read that this morning in case someone brought it up.

Also, not spamming reports. As per YMDC he needs to cite sources, which he has not, I have and have provided the tools so he can see them for himself.

Finally, because I want to kick that dead horse one last time before I blow off this entire discussion.

A Psyker is a unit at all times. In fact, all models on the board are units at all times. The only ruling I know that stops something from being a unit is if the unit itself is dead, otherwise it is still a unit. So when you select ALL Psyker units on the board, this includes, IC Psykers walking around solo, Mixed unit Psykers as well as BoP.

If you cannot provide explicit text from the BRB please do not attempt to deny this point as it is incredibly disrespectful and not conductive to the discussion.

Have a nice day!

"What you are arguing for, which is the same as what most everyone else in this thread agreed with as probably RAI, is a perfectly reasonable way to play it. It's simply not supported by the rules as they currently stand."

You realize that this is not a valid thing within the game don't you. It only counts here in this discussion. The RAW are quite clear, when things are in questions, the BRB even gives you a way to handle the situation so people do not waster time arguing, this does not change RAW it simply allows the game to keep going forward for both players.

There is nothing within the BRB to counter anything I have said explicitly, in any way, shape or form and you know it, hence why you keep quoting things incorrectly and assuming things based on your opinion, not facts. The BRB defines unit, the BRB does not say anywhere in it that an IC stops being an IC while he is in a unit, in fact it gives this unit a classification, a MIXED unit.

What most in this thread are arguing for isn't RAI. It's a literal reading of RAW, we simply understand what it is saying and do not need to interpret anything.

It is entirely rude to discount our opinions as RAI simply because you cannot provide a rule that states otherwise and it is by no means helpful to those players who come here seeking answers and advice.

Once again, proof please.

Have a nice day!

Zodiark wrote:
Tell me, where does it say anywhere in there that IC Psykers are not units?

What?

IC Psykers are units. Right up until they join another unit, at which point they count as a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

As has been established, a mixed unit is a unit with a Psyker and non-psykers mixed together, how then are you finding, within the rules, not your interpretation or your opinion, but within the rules, a way to deny a Psyker within a mixed unit his WC?

He doesn't get his warp charge because, as you yourself admitted earlier in the thread, the mixed unit is not a Psyker unit. And when tallying up your warp charge, you only count Psyker units.

Your final point, a unit can be a single model or multiple models. An Independent character is a single model that, simply for rule purposes i.e., when targeting a unit so the defending player does not have to consistently refer back to his charts for the individual stats of each unit within the overall unit composition. For example, shooting, it simplifies the process, yet in the assault phase, if you are assaulting with said unit, your IC stats would then be applied as well as the unit he is in.

You're missing a few too many words in there for it to be intelligible.

You have again, failed to prove that an IC Psyker stops being an IC Psyker by joining a unit as this is what a mixed unit is referred as per the definition provided earlier.

That would be because I haven't been trying to prove that.

An IC Psyker joined to a non-Psyker unit is still an IC Psyker. The unit that now includes the IC Psyker, however, is not a Psyker unit (according to you). Which means it doesn't generate warp charges, and can't cast Psychic Powers.

An IC Psyker joined to a non-Psyker unit is still an IC Psyker. The unit that now includes the IC Psyker, however, is not a Psyker unit (according to you). Which means it doesn't generate warp charges, and can't cast Psychic Powers.

I told you before, read thoroughly please this time.

A mixed unit is a composition of a Psyker with non psykers, if a Psyker joins, he does not cease to be a Psyker the mixed unit itself would not be considered a Psyker unless stated otherwise, but the mixed unit counts as having a Psyker in it so that Psyker would still receive WC and power as normal.

That Psyker never ceases to be a Psyker and as the BRB does not state anywhere otherwise, he receives WC as normal and he can generate WC as normal and cast Psychic Powers as normal.

Until you PROVE otherwise, this is how it is played. This is how it is taught, this is how it reads. Disagree all you want, you have no rule backing to state otherwise from a position with any leg to stand on. For all rules and purposes. The rules say ALL Psyker units, he is still a Psyker, he is just within a mixed unit, which as you kindly put it, proves my point.

Have a nice day!

Zodiark wrote:
A mixed unit is a composition of a Psyker with non psykers, if a Psyker joins, he does not cease to be a Psyker the mixed unit itself would not be considered a Psyker unless stated otherwise, but the mixed unit counts as having a Psyker in it so that Psyker would still receive WC and power as normal.

You can keep repeating it, and it won't change the response. The rule has been quoted multiple times now: You receive Warp Charges for Psyker units, not for Psykers.

This is how it is taught,...

You've said this a couple of times now as if it should mean something. Did they start offering degrees in 40K when I wasn't looking?

The rules say ALL Psyker units, he is still a Psyker he is just within a mixed unit,...

...which is not, according to you, a Psyker unit.

Going to throw this in there...
I understand that an IC stops being his own unit when he joins another unit, as it has been qouted in this thread many times already. However, does IC Psyker also stop being a Psyker Unit when he joins a squad? To me the answer seems to be no. I think this because a Psyker Unit =/= Unit. We have a definition for each and they seem to be different things. Is this correct?

 insaniak wrote:

Zodiark wrote:
A mixed unit is a composition of a Psyker with non psykers, if a Psyker joins, he does not cease to be a Psyker the mixed unit itself would not be considered a Psyker unless stated otherwise, but the mixed unit counts as having a Psyker in it so that Psyker would still receive WC and power as normal.

You can keep repeating it, and it won't change the response. The rule has been quoted multiple times now: You receive Warp Charges for Psyker units, not for Psykers.

This is how it is taught,...

You've said this a couple of times now as if it should mean something. Did they start offering degrees in 40K when I wasn't looking?

The rules say ALL Psyker units, he is still a Psyker he is just within a mixed unit,...

...which is not, according to you, a Psyker unit.

Where did I say that the Psyker within a mixed unit is not a Psyker? Show me exactly or back out of the debate right now as you are seriously just spamming which is behavior that should not be tolerated from a moderator in an open forum such as this.

I said the MIXED unit is not a Psyker, but the Psyker within the unit is still a Psyker unit, your false interpretation of the RAW believes that since he is with non-psykers he no longer gets to do what Psykers do which is asinine in its entirety.

The rules state Psyker Units, it does not state a specific type of unit so it means all units types. That is IC psykers, mixed units that include Psyker units and BoP units.

Can you quote an exact rule stating otherwise? No you cannot.

Good day, I'm done with you, you haven't contributed anything to further the discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Going to throw this in there...
I understand that an IC stops being his own unit when he joins another unit, as it has been qouted in this thread many times already. However, does IC Psyker also stop being a Psyker Unit when he joins a squad? To me the answer seems to be no. I think this because a Psyker Unit =/= Unit. We have a definition for each and they seem to be different things. Is this correct?

Your question is correct.

He stops being an IC but he does not stop being a Psyker unit.

Also, the wording for IC joining a unit, nowhere does it say he ceases to be an IC, it just states that the unit who he joins is applied for all rules, so in effect, he never loses IC, but the unit he joins supercedes his own ruling.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
However, does IC Psyker also stop being a Psyker Unit when he joins a squad?

Yes. Probably.

A Psyker unit is a unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood rule. So the question becomes: Is a unit that consists of one model with the Psyker rule and a bunch of other models without the Psyker rule a 'unit with the Psyker rule'?


Edit - So to be clearer: Yes, the IC is no longer a Psyker unit. The IC combined with the unit he joined may be a Psyker Unit, depending on personal interpretation until GW FAQ it.

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
However, does IC Psyker also stop being a Psyker Unit when he joins a squad?

Yes. Probably.

A Psyker unit is a unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood rule. So the question becomes: Is a unit that consists of one model with the Psyker rule and a bunch of other models without the Psyker rule a 'unit with the Psyker rule'?

Here you would apply the ruling for mixed units, which combines multiple unit types, one Psyker with none Psykers, this has been discussed, you simply disagree because it's "game breaking"

The reason it is like this is because you cannot take away the Psyker unit status that the Psyker has. Wherever he is on the board, he himself is always a Psyker unit as per rules.

Edit - So to be clearer: Yes, the IC is no longer a Psyker unit. The IC combined with the unit he joined may be a Psyker Unit, depending on personal interpretation until GW FAQ it.

False. He cannot stop being a Psyker unit, this is in effect game breaking. There is nothing within the rules in any way that states that you can take away a units type. The unit he joins with would not be a Psyker unit, it would be a mixed unit, also discussed earlier.

Not to mention there is no ruling to allow you to remove a units type. Independent Character is a Special Rule as was mentioned earlier, it is not a unit type. Therefore he remains a Psyker unit for all rules purposes, but he loses the IC Special Rule when he joins a unit. (Though I use the word lose loosely as it stays with the unit, but the mixed units rules take precedence)

Zodiark wrote:

I have read through every rule posted in this topic and nothing counters the following:

Unless a rule specifically states that a Psyker IC in a non-Psyker unit or even in a Psyker unit stops being a Psyker unit, he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per rules. The example was cited earlier in the thread but I'll paraphrase for you to save you a search.

Please cite the definition of a Psyker Unit.

When determining WC add the ML of all Psykers on the table, this includes those inside of a transport. A mixed unit is defined as you said as a Psyker unit with a non-psyker unit. The transport is not a Psyker unit unless stated otherwise therefore you would still count the Psyker's ML in this unit combination for WC and he is still able to cast Psyker powers as per normal.

I never mentioned that definition of a mixed unit. It's a Psyker IC (not unit) with a non-Psyker unit.
If you're treating that IC as anything other than a member of the non-Psyker unit for a rules purpose, please explain why. Preferably using rules.

When attempting to cast a Psyker power, you select any Psyker unit you have, this is a grouped unit of Psykers such as those with BoP or an individual Psyker unit, IC. It doesn't say you cannot choose an IC that is in a mixed unit anywhere in the description for selecting a Psyker and because it does not state that you cannot do something, we can.

If a Psyker is joined to a non-Psyker unit, where is the Psyker unit?

Until then, again, I will report anything you post in response to me that does not further contribute to the discussion.

Please do. It's amusing.

This means no more trying to flip the discussion around asking me to prove something, this is no more having me cite something, this is no more disagreeing simply because you think its RAI and not RAW. RAW means RAW. If it is not written in a negative, then it is a positive which literally means, if the book says you cannot do something, then you can.

Correct, RAW means RAW. Please, cite the rule that proves your macro/mini unit theory - which is required for the rest of your argument to be valid.

Actual citations from the text or Faq's please or do not respond.

Again - it's been cited throughout this thread. I've used the words in my posts.

The IC is a member of the non-Psyker unit for all rules purposes. (IC special rule) You're attempting to treat him as a Psyker unit for a rules purpose.
Please cite permission to do so.