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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.

But more on topic...
 ansacs wrote:
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.

I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines

But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc




The darkness between the stars

I assume you mean Spell Familiar DP? I dunno it's a tough one between Pink Horrors and them.


White Knights you say!? What about whiny white knights?
Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/30 21:55:42


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Temple Prime

While there are legitimate white knights on dakka who will irrationally defend GW tooth and nail from even the slightest criticism (why is beyond me, perhaps they're being paid to do so?), Melissa is not one of them.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc




The darkness between the stars

 Kain wrote:
While there are legitimate white knights on dakka who will irrationally defend GW tooth and nail from even the slightest criticism (why is beyond me, perhaps they're being paid to do so?), Melissa is not one of them.


Not even sure if that was aimed at Melissa (as per myself I just couldn't resist having some fun with SM = Knights in space)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/30 21:57:29


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Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?

Hellbrutes and Daemons?

Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...


Use the Crimson Slaughter rules to make a fluffy Exalted Warband.

PM me if you want my list.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?

Hellbrutes and Daemons?

Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...

The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.

Also I think you might want to look up white knight as GW is not a woman and I would not invest in it. Or do you mean to say I am a chess piece?

Melissia wrote:I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.

But more on topic...
 ansacs wrote:
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.

I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines

But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.

They are battle brothers. So they definitely don't mean to stop it and appear to encourage CSM to pull daemons from the warp. Makes sense seeing as they are "chaos" space marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/30 22:11:42


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc




The darkness between the stars

It's kind of odd. They kind of suck at summoning daemons unless you give them a certain upgrade that then laughs circles around them.

Yes *nods head* you are now a chess piece. I wish to move you.

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Temple Prime

Like many terms, White Knight has been reappropriated to new and broader definitions.

The current most popular definition refers to anyone who defends an unpopular position for the sake of defending it or seem to have a personal investment into something relatively unimportant and thus defend it with far more passion than most people would bother with. Such as those who appear to take personal offence to anyone who criticizes GW and write up long, impassioned paragraphs about how GW is secretly more competent than it appears to be and that we're all wrong for doubting it's wisdom or considering it's design team and board of directors to be a bunch of paint chip eating, glue sniffing monkeys with an ice pick lodged in their cerebrums.

GW needs relentless and dogged critics to point out every flaw they make to the world until their finances tank enough for them to change course or die and have it's assets be bought out by a more intelligent company more than it needs fanboys who somehow missed the stagnating or even declining consumer base.

GW's Order of the White Knights will only doom the game to a continually stagnating and slowly declining playerbase in the long run. GW needs tough love, Black Knight level tough love.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/30 22:23:48


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes yes, terms develop... the words 'moron', 'idiot', or 'imbecile' used to be the medically accepted term for patients with down syndrome. Heck, being gay used to mean you were happy...

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's kind of odd. They kind of suck at summoning daemons unless you give them a certain upgrade that then laughs circles around them.

Daemon Princes don't suck at it. Daemon Princes with Spell Familiars are BETTER at it than actual Chaos Daemon armies.

The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc




The darkness between the stars

Kyutaru wrote:
Yes yes, terms develop... the words 'moron', 'idiot', or 'imbecile' used to be the medically accepted term for patients with down syndrome. Heck, being gay used to mean you were happy...

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's kind of odd. They kind of suck at summoning daemons unless you give them a certain upgrade that then laughs circles around them.

Daemon Princes don't suck at it. Daemon Princes with Spell Familiars are BETTER at it than actual Chaos Daemon armies.


That's the upgrade I was mentioning

Why are we all so interested in how words change . Still, I find it far more entertaining to see how the internet changes words. Usually offensive ones by basically abusing them until they mean almost nothing.

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Regular Dakkanaut





Dont DP's have to align and therefore take a chaos psychic power and not get summon (only sacrifice, and maybe possession as a last resort). If you want best summoner, go with prophet of the voices from crimson slaughter, only unaligned daemon sorcerer in the game that can roll on daemonology.

   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc




The darkness between the stars

kingleir wrote:
Dont DP's have to align and therefore take a chaos psychic power and not get summon (only sacrifice, and maybe possession as a last resort). If you want best summoner, go with prophet of the voices from crimson slaughter, only unaligned daemon sorcerer in the game that can roll on daemonology.



They have to take one but they can still roll on it and give up their spell for the Primaris I believe.

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Regular Dakkanaut





I thought that was replaced with psychic focus, don't have th rulebook yet so just going off what I hear.
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle





Isn't an Eldar Farseer with a ghosthelm the best daemon summoner in the game?
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Isn't an Eldar Farseer with a ghosthelm the best daemon summoner in the game?

The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Isn't an Eldar Farseer with a ghosthelm the best daemon summoner in the game?

Only if you want their unit to take a bunch of wounds, them to loose a bunch of your warp charges, and for the psyker to loose some of his powers through the game.

The helm only negates the wound taken not the other nasty effects and rolling 5+ dice each time is going to give you a perils pretty much every time.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page

The best malefic caster in the game is a ML3 CSM daemon prince with spell familiar. Yes as it turns out humorous imps make you a better sorcerer...go figure.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





I've decided to use an old unpainted Skaven assassin model I bought years ago, to be my official Spell Familiar in any games. I don't play Fantasy and just bought the model cause I loved the design. SO I have my own rat man imp.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




 ansacs wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?

Hellbrutes and Daemons?

Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...

The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.

This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".

Melissia wrote:I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.

But more on topic...
 ansacs wrote:
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.

I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines

But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.
They are battle brothers. So they definitely don't mean to stop it and appear to encourage CSM to pull daemons from the warp. Makes sense seeing as they are "chaos" space marines.


They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.
   
Made in pt
Sister Vastly Superior







JubbJubbz wrote:
 ansacs wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?

Hellbrutes and Daemons?

Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...

The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.

This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".


*coughBloodAngelscough*

I use vanilla marines (CT:IH, though CT:IF would also work well) for my Iron Warriors as I feel it ends up being a better fit than anything in the CSM book. No daemon engines, but CT:IH covers that. Centurions work as a replacement for Obliterators. Battle Brothers with IG. It's disappointing, as I want the real Daemon engines (I know, unbound) but the CSM book is, for me, a terrible representation of Iron Warriors overall.

SM for Tau doesn't work well, Tau are too unique. If the CSM codex had a system lice C:SM's chapter tactics to represent legions, I think a lot of the complaints would go away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/31 05:00:34


I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Roswell, GA

I just want new marine sculpts :(
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

JubbJubbz wrote:
This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh_Eaters#.U4liP_nxr0E
Because eating people is something loyalist don't do? I am not talking about their actions but rather representing their military tactics on the table top. Tell me what units night lords field that does not fit with the SM codex?

JubbJubbz wrote:
They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.

Because the CSM sorcerers and daemons get spell familiars. So where everyone else has a 50% chance on 5 dice to get a WC3 power off the CSM spell familiar psyker has a 75% chance. It makes them able to throw out way more powers than other psykers. You can even make the sorcerer into a daemon using the voices from crimson slaughter and use malefic powers only getting perils on double 6 or use a winged CSM daemon prince w/ spell familiar to summon daemons (though the sorcerer is probably a better buy). Flying MC are actually pretty tough now and you can just continuously fly on behind LoS blockers, conjure units, fly to the board edge next turn, conjure again, and run off the table again.

Anything not a daemon takes perils on any doubles. When using summoning which is WC3. 5 dice gives you a 50% chance to manifest but a 90% chance to perils. With a daemon it is 50% to manifest and 20% to perils. With a CSM spell familiar 5 dice gives you the same odds to manifest as 7 dice for anyone else.
   
Made in gb
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!

Internet tough guys say that CSM are "fluffy"..

Then some of them say play a different codex for a "fluffy" game..

I will let that just sink in for a second..

Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts

 Grey Templar wrote:

Orks don't hate, they just love. Love to fight everyone.


Whatever you use.. It's Cheesy, broken and OP  
   
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The darkness between the stars

 happygolucky wrote:
Internet tough guys say that CSM are "fluffy"..

Then some of them say play a different codex for a "fluffy" game..

I will let that just sink in for a second..


They are fluffy unless you try to play anything except Nurgle

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Washington State

What is CSM supposed to do now? Spam the crap out of Sorcerers and Psykers. Get as many Psychic Charge dice as you can and throw them on the table summoning Deamon units, Heralds, and Greater Deamons. Dominate the Psychic phase and double the size of your army.

The rest of your list? Take what ever you want. It won't matter as your main gimmick will be to summon as many Deamons as possible and drown your opponent in them.

FORGE THE NARRATIVE HARDER.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in gb
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!

 StarTrotter wrote:
 happygolucky wrote:
Internet tough guys say that CSM are "fluffy"..

Then some of them say play a different codex for a "fluffy" game..

I will let that just sink in for a second..


They are fluffy unless you try to play anything except Nurgle


I try Khorne hehe I even use FW and they are very cool to play especially along with Khorne Daemons..

Am I forging the narrative hard enough?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/31 17:31:00


Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts

 Grey Templar wrote:

Orks don't hate, they just love. Love to fight everyone.


Whatever you use.. It's Cheesy, broken and OP  
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Desperado Corp.

 Tamwulf wrote:
What is CSM supposed to do now? Spam the crap out of Sorcerers and Psykers. Get as many Psychic Charge dice as you can and throw them on the table summoning Deamon units, Heralds, and Greater Deamons. Dominate the Psychic phase and double the size of your army.

The rest of your list? Take what ever you want. It won't matter as your main gimmick will be to summon as many Deamons as possible and drown your opponent in them.

FORGE THE NARRATIVE HARDER.


TBF, that's pretty much every apologist's (happy, Melissa? Even though language change is a thing) argument. Why should I have to play Space Marines when I want to play Chaos Space Marines? I shouldn't have to counts as for an army that technically already has a codex.

Also, suggesting BA as an appropriate alternative is like suggesting using a butter knife instead of that plank of wood in a gunfight.

Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. 
   
Made in us
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Perhaps use your best-in-game psykers to support your other stuff? You're far more likely to succeed at casting Invis with a Familiar than any other faction. You don't need nearly as many dice to get off as many powers. And with fewer dice per power, you should get more powers off with fewer perils.

Instead of saying 'FML drake spam is dead, therefore CSM is now dead unless I find a better spam', perhaps you should be looking at a more combined arms approach?

Whatever the most broken option is (looking like Demon Factory), that leaves about 15 other factions that aren't top. Most of those players will keep their army, and still have fun.

CSM is probably not at the top of the heap, but the edition change was at worst a wash. Yes, the FAQs needed the Drake, and the VS change nerfed it further, but it needed it. Nurgle wasn't really touched, but killy characters had challenges buffed, all your vehicles are much more survivable (even the Drake), if a DP does get Iron Arm up, they're t8, and your Psykers are easily best in game (cheap reroll failed powers? Omg freaking yes!). Demons have endless summoning, but CSM isn't the only non-Demon faction.

Either you enjoy CSM for what they are or you don't. If you don't because they're not the strongest, then you're an FotM player, not a CSM player, and perhaps this game isn't for you. If you like the tactical challenge, there are more tactical games. If you enjoy stomping noobs, greifing is easier online (but still despicable). Find out what it is you like, and react accordingly.
   
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Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
So, we have a noncompetitive codex that doesn't reflect the army's fluff, has no special tactics or strategies, is full of underpowered units and can't ally properly with anything.?


That aptly describes both of my main armies, CSM and Tyranids.

WayneTheGame wrote:To say nothing of the fact that if you DON'T want to play the foul Death Guard, you either make up "counts-as" reasons for taking the Mark of Nurgle anyways, or you languish in mediocrity because the units you'll take aren't as good as playing Death Guard.


I did that second option until recently. I don't like Nurgle, so I've been forced to deliberately handicap myself. However, I've always had a fledgling fluff for my CSM, and I've only recently started developing it properly. The short version is that they're mostly clones and stolen gene-seed. Sometimes they feel a sense of heritage, or just start exhibiting traits associated with their gene-seed. I wondered how I could fit Iron Hands into my army, and then I realised that I could use the Mark of Nurgle/Plague Marines. It made me feel bad, up until the point where the FAQ nerfed the Heldrake.

I'd like to say that I love the Daemon Engines (well, the Forgefiend and Heldrake). I'm not a fan of the fleshy 'fiend head because it looks like a sassy Tyranid. The plasma head is seriously cool, though, but I refuse to call it "ectoplasma".

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
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 koooaei wrote:
It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...


So....Bad moons?

They used to be BS3 y'know.

Even had a BS5+ Warboss, epic shooty.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/31 20:36:09


 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...


So....Bad moons?

They used to be BS3 y'know.

Even had a BS5+ Warboss, epic shooty.

Be very worried if Berserkers start carrying rifle sized or larger guns in their next iteration.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
 
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