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 ClassicCarraway wrote:

tvirus40k wrote:

Chariots are broken,

Correction, NECRON chariots are broken. Daemon chariots are fine.

Personally, since the precedent has already been established with the rider losing their IC status for Codex: Chaos Daemons, I would have to think that the Overlord loses IC as well, even if its not specifically stated in the FAQ. As for the 3++ with the phase shifter, thats a tough one. RAW, there is nothing anywhere that indicates it would not apply to the entire model, but it sure does seem cheezy as all get out (13 AV, 4+ Jink, plus can tank shooting with a 2+/3++ on the rider).

Daemon chariots still have the problem (same as Necrons) that we don't know how many of their special rules/wargear interact with the 'always treated as one model' thing.

E.g. can a daemon chariot with a rider that has the Dark Blessing reward re-roll invulnerable saves?

The shooting at chariots bit about the "closest model in the unit" is for units of chariots from the daemon book.

the necron faq changes him from ic to chariot rider.. look it up. he cannot join units

The FAQ says no such thing.

ok, what does it say then. lets hear your interpretation. you have the floor!

broo wrote:
ok, what does it say then. lets hear your interpretation. you have the floor!

That instead of carrying an IC it is a chariot rider. It does NOT remove the IC status from The Lord.

edited.

Let's tone it down please.

Reds8n

Isn't chariot a unit type and independant character, a USR?

Yep. So, being a chariot doesn't mean it is not still an independent character, as there is nothing specific which states such. (unlike the daemon variant).

So basically the chariot (and the ccb + Overlord combo in particular) seems to be a fine stew of rules currently, one which will hopefully be sorted out with a more robust FAQ entry.

Even in the Chariot section of the BRB it only states that the Character is to be referred to as the Rider. Also there is nothing in the BRB about what define a Rider or what USR affect what...

While the authorities are trying to figure out what's happening, the Necron Overlord is bringing his chariot out for a spin every night without his metaphorical licence..... And racing through every red light he sees, screaming his head off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With a head wreathed in flames, swinging a long thick chain.

The Daemons FAQ, which parallels the chariots for Heralds of Khorne, Tzeench, and Slaanesh, state that those heralds become riders and lose the IC rule.

The same mechanic is in the Necron Overlord; however, it only states that the Command barge loses transport capacity and instead has "Rider: Necron Overlord".

I see this as an oversight on the Necron FAQ and would function the same as the Daemons as both are ICs that can purchase a chariot upgrade.

I suspect you are right, and that the eventual FAQ update for the CCB will prompt the rider to lose his IC status as well. (as the other way around; getting the CCB to play nice with being in a group of other models seems a lot more complex)

Until then, discuss such with your opponents and/or enjoy making up a house rule or two to insure you can resolve things properly.

The Chariot rules clearly state that it is an unusual unit that has dual profiles, one for the rider and one for the chariot.

Throughout the whole Chariot section, it is clear that although there is one model, there are two separate profiles and these profiles can be allocated wounds and or hits. Further, in assault, each profile (rider vs chariot) can be attacked separately.

IC is a USR and there is NO mechanism for this USR to transfer to any other unit (or in this case to any other profile).

Everyone referencing "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model" needs to read the sentence before it.

"A Chariot is a unusual unit with a dual profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself".

The fact that it is treated as a single model does not mean that USR automatically transfer between the rider and vehicle profiles.

MarkCron wrote:
The Chariot rules clearly state that it is an unusual unit that has dual profiles, one for the rider and one for the chariot.

Throughout the whole Chariot section, it is clear that although there is one model, there are two separate profiles and these profiles can be allocated wounds and or hits. Further, in assault, each profile (rider vs chariot) can be attacked separately.

IC is a USR and there is NO mechanism for this USR to transfer to any other unit (or in this case to any other profile).

Everyone referencing "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model" needs to read the sentence before it.

"A Chariot is a unusual unit with a dual profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself".

The fact that it is treated as a single model does not mean that USR automatically transfer between the rider and vehicle profiles.

A couple questions:
Who does the IC rules apply to? I cannot find a reference in the rule that they apply to the Profile or Model.
Why would the IC rule only being on the Overlord Profile prevent it from joining a unit? The IC rule only says it can join with other units.

The sad part regarding this issue is either due to an over sight on GW's part or it is exactly what they are going for... and no one here is being paid by GW to write rules, leaving us to question what Gw was going for...

 BLADERIKER wrote:
The sad part regarding this issue is either due to an over sight on GW's part or is exactly what they are going for... and no one here is being paid by GW to write rules, leaving us to question what Gw was going for...

For how the daemon FAQ is written, I'm presuming an oversight that'll be corrected in the next round of FAQs. Hopefully we don't have to wait another year for them.

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
The Chariot rules clearly state that it is an unusual unit that has dual profiles, one for the rider and one for the chariot.

Throughout the whole Chariot section, it is clear that although there is one model, there are two separate profiles and these profiles can be allocated wounds and or hits. Further, in assault, each profile (rider vs chariot) can be attacked separately.

IC is a USR and there is NO mechanism for this USR to transfer to any other unit (or in this case to any other profile).

Everyone referencing "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model" needs to read the sentence before it.

"A Chariot is a unusual unit with a dual profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself".

The fact that it is treated as a single model does not mean that USR automatically transfer between the rider and vehicle profiles.

A couple questions:
Who does the IC rules apply to? I cannot find a reference in the rule that they apply to the Profile or Model.

Excellent question. The ERB pg 640 "What Special Rules Do I Have" refers to "models". Not sure whether model=profile. First couple of sentences are interesting : "It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or it's Unit Type. That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using".

So, if model doesn't equal profile, then the model (comprising Chariot and Rider) only has the special rules applicable to Chariots (as set out in the BRB/ERB/Necron Codex) plus any USR conferred by wargear?

 Nilok wrote:
Why would the IC rule only being on the Overlord Profile prevent it from joining a unit? The IC rule only says it can join with other units.

Because units are impassable terrain so you can't get within an inch of the unit. Therefore you can't join units to other units without special permission, namely the IC special rule. For example, An overlord with a Royal Court can't join a unit of warriors because the Royal Court isn't an IC - and IC doesn't confer to the Royal Court when the Overlord is joined to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaannd...Ignore the comment on impassable terrain. Interestingly I can't find the rule which says you can't move within an inch of a friendly unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So apparently it is now legal to intermix two units providing you maintain coherency in both. Walking cover anyone?

 Unholyllama wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
The sad part regarding this issue is either due to an over sight on GW's part or is exactly what they are going for... and no one here is being paid by GW to write rules, leaving us to question what Gw was going for...

For how the daemon FAQ is written, I'm presuming an oversight that'll be corrected in the next round of FAQs. Hopefully we don't have to wait another year for them.

Similarly to this ongoing debate is a question regarding Sammael (DA) and his Land Speeder (Sableclaw) I have looked at the DA FAQ and the Codex and I cannot find where Sammael losses his IC status for taking the Land Speeder, only that his unit type changes to Vehicle(Fast Skimmer) his wargear and USR are left unchanged as is his Warlord Trait. So in theory you could have Sammael in his Land speeder join a Squad of Raven Wing Bikers and would have a similar issue.

MarkCron wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
The Chariot rules clearly state that it is an unusual unit that has dual profiles, one for the rider and one for the chariot.

Throughout the whole Chariot section, it is clear that although there is one model, there are two separate profiles and these profiles can be allocated wounds and or hits. Further, in assault, each profile (rider vs chariot) can be attacked separately.

IC is a USR and there is NO mechanism for this USR to transfer to any other unit (or in this case to any other profile).

Everyone referencing "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model" needs to read the sentence before it.

"A Chariot is a unusual unit with a dual profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself".

The fact that it is treated as a single model does not mean that USR automatically transfer between the rider and vehicle profiles.

A couple questions:
Who does the IC rules apply to? I cannot find a reference in the rule that they apply to the Profile or Model.

Excellent question. The ERB pg 640 "What Special Rules Do I Have" refers to "models". Not sure whether model=profile. First couple of sentences are interesting : "It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or it's Unit Type. That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using".

So, if model doesn't equal profile, then the model (comprising Chariot and Rider) only has the special rules applicable to Chariots (as set out in the BRB/ERB/Necron Codex) plus any USR conferred by wargear?

 Nilok wrote:
Why would the IC rule only being on the Overlord Profile prevent it from joining a unit? The IC rule only says it can join with other units.

Because units are impassable terrain so you can't get within an inch of the unit. Therefore you can't join units to other units without special permission, namely the IC special rule. For example, An overlord with a Royal Court can't join a unit of warriors because the Royal Court isn't an IC - and IC doesn't confer to the Royal Court when the Overlord is joined to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaannd...Ignore the comment on impassable terrain. Interestingly I can't find the rule which says you can't move within an inch of a friendly unit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So apparently it is now legal to intermix two units providing you maintain coherency in both. Walking cover anyone?

I am a little confused by your reply. The CCB/Overlord isn't attached to any units and is alone. If USRs affect models, than the CCB should also be affected by the IC USR from it's rider profile.
Why did you say it didn't?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
The sad part regarding this issue is either due to an over sight on GW's part or is exactly what they are going for... and no one here is being paid by GW to write rules, leaving us to question what Gw was going for...

For how the daemon FAQ is written, I'm presuming an oversight that'll be corrected in the next round of FAQs. Hopefully we don't have to wait another year for them.

Similarly to this ongoing debate is a question regarding Sammael (DA) and his Land Speeder (Sableclaw) I have looked at the DA FAQ and the Codex and I cannot find where Sammael losses his IC status for taking the Land Speeder, only that his unit type changes to Vehicle(Fast Skimmer) his wargear and USR are left unchanged as is his Warlord Trait. So in theory you could have Sammael in his Land speeder join a Squad of Raven Wing Bikers and would have a similar issue.

Sammael loses the IC special Rule because Codex DA states that he uses the land speeder profile instead - which is lacking the IC rule.

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
The Chariot rules clearly state that it is an unusual unit that has dual profiles, one for the rider and one for the chariot.

Throughout the whole Chariot section, it is clear that although there is one model, there are two separate profiles and these profiles can be allocated wounds and or hits. Further, in assault, each profile (rider vs chariot) can be attacked separately.

IC is a USR and there is NO mechanism for this USR to transfer to any other unit (or in this case to any other profile).

Everyone referencing "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model" needs to read the sentence before it.

"A Chariot is a unusual unit with a dual profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself".

The fact that it is treated as a single model does not mean that USR automatically transfer between the rider and vehicle profiles.

A couple questions:
Who does the IC rules apply to? I cannot find a reference in the rule that they apply to the Profile or Model.

Excellent question. The ERB pg 640 "What Special Rules Do I Have" refers to "models". Not sure whether model=profile. First couple of sentences are interesting : "It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or it's Unit Type. That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using".

So, if model doesn't equal profile, then the model (comprising Chariot and Rider) only has the special rules applicable to Chariots (as set out in the BRB/ERB/Necron Codex) plus any USR conferred by wargear?

 Nilok wrote:
Why would the IC rule only being on the Overlord Profile prevent it from joining a unit? The IC rule only says it can join with other units.

Because units are impassable terrain so you can't get within an inch of the unit. Therefore you can't join units to other units without special permission, namely the IC special rule. For example, An overlord with a Royal Court can't join a unit of warriors because the Royal Court isn't an IC - and IC doesn't confer to the Royal Court when the Overlord is joined to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaannd...Ignore the comment on impassable terrain. Interestingly I can't find the rule which says you can't move within an inch of a friendly unit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So apparently it is now legal to intermix two units providing you maintain coherency in both. Walking cover anyone?

I am a little confused by your reply. The CCB/Overlord isn't attached to any units and is alone. If USRs affect models, than the CCB should also be affected by the IC USR from it's rider profile.
Why did you say it didn't?

Because the Chariot doesn't have that USR per the BRB. That was my point originally...the BRB is clear that the Chariot is unique because you have two profiles (ie 2 models) which are considered 1. Unless the USR confers to units joined, it can't transfer to the Chariot. In the example above, if you have an Overlord in his Royal Court, you have multiple models, considered as one unit. You can pick out the Overlord with a precision shot, you can assault him in combat, but you can't join him and the royal court to another unit, because the IC USR doesn't transfer to the models in the royal court and is only applicable to him.

In the case of the Chariot, the first sentence is clear. There are dual profiles, one for the rider, one for the chariot and there is nowhere a statement that says that the rider gets Chariot USR or vice versa. The statement "However, it is always treated as one model" has to be interpreted in the context of the first sentence ie there are two *separate* profiles which are "treated as" one model. They don't *become* one model, they are only treated as one model. If they became one model (for example a SM captain on a bike), you would have a *combined* profile. So I have no problem with a captain on a bike joining a unit (providing they had IC) because the bike doesn't have it's own profile or characteristics.

The problem I see with the Chariot, is that it has it's own profile and characteristics to which some people suggest an additional benefit should be added, just because the Rider happens to have it and despite the fact that specific benefit cannot be transferred under any circumstances.

MarkCron wrote:

Because the Chariot doesn't have that USR per the BRB. That was my point originally...the BRB is clear that the Chariot is unique because you have two profiles (ie 2 models) which are considered 1. Unless the USR confers to units joined, it can't transfer to the Chariot. In the example above, if you have an Overlord in his Royal Court, you have multiple models, considered as one unit. You can pick out the Overlord with a precision shot, you can assault him in combat, but you can't join him and the royal court to another unit, because the IC USR doesn't transfer to the models in the royal court and is only applicable to him.

In the case of the Chariot, the first sentence is clear. There are dual profiles, one for the rider, one for the chariot and there is nowhere a statement that says that the rider gets Chariot USR or vice versa. The statement "However, it is always treated as one model" has to be interpreted in the context of the first sentence ie there are two *separate* profiles which are "treated as" one model. They don't *become* one model, they are only treated as one model. If they became one model (for example a SM captain on a bike), you would have a *combined* profile. So I have no problem with a captain on a bike joining a unit (providing they had IC) because the bike doesn't have it's own profile or characteristics.

The problem I see with the Chariot, is that it has it's own profile and characteristics to which some people suggest an additional benefit should be added, just because the Rider happens to have it and despite the fact that specific benefit cannot be transferred under any circumstances.

You are conflating rules when you refer to the Overlord hatched to a Royal Court and an Overlord in a CCB. You are allowed to pick the Overlord profile out with precision shots because you are given permission to do so for that model, not because you treat the Chariot as a unit. Of course the IC USR would not spread to the rest of the unit, it would only stay with the model with that rule because it does not give permission to spread to the rest of the unit. However, a Chariot is a single model that has that rule. To use your example, it would be like saying the rest of a unit does not get the befits of Shrouded even though they are all one unit. It is why it is generally accepted that a CCB gains the benefits of a Phase Shifter from the Overlord because it applies to the model, not the profile.

If what you said is true about USRs always affecting models unless otherwise specified, than a Chariot would benefit from any USR its rider has, such as IC, and vice versa.

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Because the Chariot doesn't have that USR per the BRB. That was my point originally...the BRB is clear that the Chariot is unique because you have two profiles (ie 2 models) which are considered 1. Unless the USR confers to units joined, it can't transfer to the Chariot. In the example above, if you have an Overlord in his Royal Court, you have multiple models, considered as one unit. You can pick out the Overlord with a precision shot, you can assault him in combat, but you can't join him and the royal court to another unit, because the IC USR doesn't transfer to the models in the royal court and is only applicable to him.

In the case of the Chariot, the first sentence is clear. There are dual profiles, one for the rider, one for the chariot and there is nowhere a statement that says that the rider gets Chariot USR or vice versa. The statement "However, it is always treated as one model" has to be interpreted in the context of the first sentence ie there are two *separate* profiles which are "treated as" one model. They don't *become* one model, they are only treated as one model. If they became one model (for example a SM captain on a bike), you would have a *combined* profile. So I have no problem with a captain on a bike joining a unit (providing they had IC) because the bike doesn't have it's own profile or characteristics.

The problem I see with the Chariot, is that it has it's own profile and characteristics to which some people suggest an additional benefit should be added, just because the Rider happens to have it and despite the fact that specific benefit cannot be transferred under any circumstances.

You are conflating rules when you refer to the Overlord hatched to a Royal Court and an Overlord in a CCB. You are allowed to pick the Overlord profile out with precision shots because you are given permission to do so for that model, not because you treat the Chariot as a unit. Of course the IC USR would not spread to the rest of the unit, it would only stay with the model with that rule because it does not give permission to spread to the rest of the unit. However, a Chariot is a single model that has that rule. To use your example, it would be like saying the rest of a unit does not get the befits of Shrouded even though they are all one unit. It is why it is generally accepted that a CCB gains the benefits of a Phase Shifter from the Overlord because it applies to the model, not the profile.

If what you said is true about USRs always affecting models unless otherwise specified, than a Chariot would benefit from any USR its rider has, such as IC, and vice versa.

No, that is not correct. There is no rule that states that the Chariot benefits from any USR its Rider has. That is your interpretation based on taking a sentence out of context. Without that misinterpretation, the Chariot does not have IC. It is exactly the same with Challenges. Note that per the rules the *Rider* issues the challenge, not the Chariot and then only if the *Rider* is a character. It is clearly not intended that characteristics of the Rider transfer to the Chariot. If the Chariot was an Independent Character, it would be able to issue a challenge.

Further Shrouded and Stealth specifically state that they transfer, so are not good examples in this case.

MarkCron wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Because the Chariot doesn't have that USR per the BRB. That was my point originally...the BRB is clear that the Chariot is unique because you have two profiles (ie 2 models) which are considered 1. Unless the USR confers to units joined, it can't transfer to the Chariot. In the example above, if you have an Overlord in his Royal Court, you have multiple models, considered as one unit. You can pick out the Overlord with a precision shot, you can assault him in combat, but you can't join him and the royal court to another unit, because the IC USR doesn't transfer to the models in the royal court and is only applicable to him.

In the case of the Chariot, the first sentence is clear. There are dual profiles, one for the rider, one for the chariot and there is nowhere a statement that says that the rider gets Chariot USR or vice versa. The statement "However, it is always treated as one model" has to be interpreted in the context of the first sentence ie there are two *separate* profiles which are "treated as" one model. They don't *become* one model, they are only treated as one model. If they became one model (for example a SM captain on a bike), you would have a *combined* profile. So I have no problem with a captain on a bike joining a unit (providing they had IC) because the bike doesn't have it's own profile or characteristics.

The problem I see with the Chariot, is that it has it's own profile and characteristics to which some people suggest an additional benefit should be added, just because the Rider happens to have it and despite the fact that specific benefit cannot be transferred under any circumstances.

You are conflating rules when you refer to the Overlord hatched to a Royal Court and an Overlord in a CCB. You are allowed to pick the Overlord profile out with precision shots because you are given permission to do so for that model, not because you treat the Chariot as a unit. Of course the IC USR would not spread to the rest of the unit, it would only stay with the model with that rule because it does not give permission to spread to the rest of the unit. However, a Chariot is a single model that has that rule. To use your example, it would be like saying the rest of a unit does not get the befits of Shrouded even though they are all one unit. It is why it is generally accepted that a CCB gains the benefits of a Phase Shifter from the Overlord because it applies to the model, not the profile.

If what you said is true about USRs always affecting models unless otherwise specified, than a Chariot would benefit from any USR its rider has, such as IC, and vice versa.

No, that is not correct. There is no rule that states that the Chariot benefits from any USR its Rider has. That is your interpretation based on taking a sentence out of context. Without that misinterpretation, the Chariot does not have IC. It is exactly the same with Challenges. Note that per the rules the *Rider* issues the challenge, not the Chariot and then only if the *Rider* is a character. It is clearly not intended that characteristics of the Rider transfer to the Chariot. If the Chariot was an Independent Character, it would be able to issue a challenge.

Further Shrouded and Stealth specifically state that they transfer, so are not good examples in this case.

I will ask you more bluntly, please provide the rule or restriction that the Chariot does no benefit from rules affecting the model.
There is nothing I can find in the rules that say USR or Wargear only affects the profile they are purchased for and I can't find anywhere that the chariot does not benefit from rules from either profile.
If we accept that IC USR affects the model from "What Special Rules Do I Have?", then the Chariot would benefit unless there is a restriction.

Your example shows they wanted the rider to be able to challenge as normal if it was a character. It may be that was their intention, but not let the vehicle profile do so. I can accept that if you are trying to argue RAI.

In a friendly game i wouldn't use it but in a Tournament game I will definitely ask how the TO how they will play it. As I see it in tournament I will take every edge I can get vs some very strong combos.

The CCB is a Chariot - a single model with a dual profile.

The vehicle doesn't lose Living Metal, Sweep Attack, or Symbiotic Repair because it is now a Chariot.

Similarly, the Overlord (rider) doesn't lose Ever-living, Independent Character, or Reanimation protocol because it's now a Chariot.

Why don't they lose these? Because by definition the profiles of the vehicle and the rider are being merged together into a dual profile which is collectively the Chariot and the Chariot is being treated as a single entity in all matters.


If a FAQ took away the IC special rule, like it did in the Chaos Demon codex, then the CCB would lose the IC special rule. The current Necron FAQ has no such line. It is very clear how to field a CCB and what is RAI. It's very possible that the Necron codex does not have such a line due to some oversight. However, you have to assume competence in the case of a document like a FAQ which is used as a basis for rules. If there is an oversight, fine, let them fix it. Otherwise, play it as it's being presented. If it winds up being too OP then it will be up to the player to throttle it in friendly games and the TO to deal with it in tournament games. But, as it is, there is no confusion to me as to how GW thinks the CCB should work.

MarkCron - your biggest problem is that you are not treating the Chariot as a single model, which by definition you are supposed to. GW is very specifically telling us to mash two profiles together and call it a single model. Unless you base your line of argumentation around mashing two profiles together and treating it as a single model, you are not following GW's specific guideline as to how to treat the Chariot.

Now, MarkCron, you may be heading down some path of bringing balance to the ruleset by trying to defeat the ability of the CCB to join units and pursuing various lines of argumentation to keep IC off the CCB, but it is not a path that GW has laid out for you. GW wants you to mash two profiles together and call it a model. You are better off appealing to TOs to nip this in the bud if you think this is OP. GW's input is very clear from what I see (unless there is just some big oversight in the Necron FAQ and they just failed to say "Hey guys, remove IC from the Overlord if you take the CCB").

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Because the Chariot doesn't have that USR per the BRB. That was my point originally...the BRB is clear that the Chariot is unique because you have two profiles (ie 2 models) which are considered 1. Unless the USR confers to units joined, it can't transfer to the Chariot. In the example above, if you have an Overlord in his Royal Court, you have multiple models, considered as one unit. You can pick out the Overlord with a precision shot, you can assault him in combat, but you can't join him and the royal court to another unit, because the IC USR doesn't transfer to the models in the royal court and is only applicable to him.

In the case of the Chariot, the first sentence is clear. There are dual profiles, one for the rider, one for the chariot and there is nowhere a statement that says that the rider gets Chariot USR or vice versa. The statement "However, it is always treated as one model" has to be interpreted in the context of the first sentence ie there are two *separate* profiles which are "treated as" one model. They don't *become* one model, they are only treated as one model. If they became one model (for example a SM captain on a bike), you would have a *combined* profile. So I have no problem with a captain on a bike joining a unit (providing they had IC) because the bike doesn't have it's own profile or characteristics.

The problem I see with the Chariot, is that it has it's own profile and characteristics to which some people suggest an additional benefit should be added, just because the Rider happens to have it and despite the fact that specific benefit cannot be transferred under any circumstances.

You are conflating rules when you refer to the Overlord hatched to a Royal Court and an Overlord in a CCB. You are allowed to pick the Overlord profile out with precision shots because you are given permission to do so for that model, not because you treat the Chariot as a unit. Of course the IC USR would not spread to the rest of the unit, it would only stay with the model with that rule because it does not give permission to spread to the rest of the unit. However, a Chariot is a single model that has that rule. To use your example, it would be like saying the rest of a unit does not get the befits of Shrouded even though they are all one unit. It is why it is generally accepted that a CCB gains the benefits of a Phase Shifter from the Overlord because it applies to the model, not the profile.

If what you said is true about USRs always affecting models unless otherwise specified, than a Chariot would benefit from any USR its rider has, such as IC, and vice versa.

No, that is not correct. There is no rule that states that the Chariot benefits from any USR its Rider has. That is your interpretation based on taking a sentence out of context. Without that misinterpretation, the Chariot does not have IC. It is exactly the same with Challenges. Note that per the rules the *Rider* issues the challenge, not the Chariot and then only if the *Rider* is a character. It is clearly not intended that characteristics of the Rider transfer to the Chariot. If the Chariot was an Independent Character, it would be able to issue a challenge.

Further Shrouded and Stealth specifically state that they transfer, so are not good examples in this case.

I will ask you more bluntly, please provide the rule or restriction that the Chariot does no benefit from rules affecting the model.
There is nothing I can find in the rules that say USR or Wargear only affects the profile they are purchased for and I can't find anywhere that the chariot does not benefit from rules from either profile.
If we accept that IC USR affects the model from "What Special Rules Do I Have?", then the Chariot would benefit unless there is a restriction.

Your example shows they wanted the rider to be able to challenge as normal if it was a character. It may be that was their intention, but not let the vehicle profile do so. I can accept that if you are trying to argue RAI.

Nilok, I think you have this the wrong way round. In the BRB, you require explicit permission to do something. So, if you aren't specifically allowed to do something you can't do it. In this case, you need to show that:

a) The paragraph

"A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model. For the purposes of characteristics test, always use the Rider's profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot"

and the rest of the Chariot rules, which has *repeated* references to ,and uses of, the separate profiles (clearly indicating that the intention was for these profiles and abilities to remain separate) actually means

"The Chariot and Rider *become* a single model where each of the Chariot and the Rider get each others USRs (even if the USR rule says that isn't allowed) but don't combine their characteristics particularly, if the Rider is a character, the Chariot doesn't become one as well. "

OR

b) Demonstrate that the IC USR can be transferred to another model - I'll take anything you can think of here.

Seriously, isn't the fact that the rulebook specifically has to state that a Rider who is a Character can do an assault enough indication that attributes such as Character *don't* transfer?

If that isn't enough, how do you explain then the following sentence. "If the rider has a special rule that returns it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, sucah as Necron's Ever-living speical rule, that model's Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point." (emphasis added). Clearly, GW is still referring to the Rider as a separate "model".

If we want to be REALLY pedantic, in the first para, you could argue that the statement "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model." does not actually state that the Rider and Chariot's MODELS are treated as a single model, only that the PROFILES were treated as a single model. So, now you have to show that a profile = model. And if you do that, you need to get around (b) because you can't transfer USR between models/profiles unless the USR says so.

Fundamentally, this whole debate seems to be about taking a single sentence out of context to make an already broken unit even worse. And I'm saying that as a Cron Player!

 Sigvatr wrote:
Best piece of advice on how to play this:

Don't let it join units. Wargear does not carry over.

Unless you want to spend 30 minutes before the game reasoning with your opponent, leaving both of you unssatisfied and angry.

RAW-wise, war gear does not carry over. Joining units might be possible, however, yet it creates a huge balance problem. And really, CCB got buffed so hard, don't go full DoC on your opponent.

What this guy said.

@col_impact : glad to see you dropped in! Better than cluttering up the other thread.

Re your comment, I have no problem treating it as a single model, I'm only taking exception to the assertion that this means that the "combined model" picks up all USR's from the rider and the chariot.

Taking the pedantic route, from my earlier post, you don't combine models, you take the profiles together. The profiles DO NOT include the USR. Each MODEL retains USR that it has (eg Ever-Living for the RIDER) but the other MODEL doesn't get them.

I think that's why the ever-living come back had to be in the rulebook as a specific exception (as well as the Rider ability to issue a challenge).

Living metal, symbiotic repair etc don't factor into this, because they are additional rules applied by the Codex, which takes precedence over the BRB.

MarkCron wrote:
@col_impact : but the other MODEL doesn't get them.

There is no Other model. There is only one model, the Chariot, and Independent Character is on there until it is FAQed off (as GW saw fit to do so in the case of the Chaos Demon Chariot). GW tells us to resolve the Chariot as if its a single model. You keep treating it like its an Independent Character embarking on a Dedicated Transport with a capactiy of one. That's not the case here. That was 6th Edition. This is a 7th Edition Chariot. There is no more than one model here, and that one model has a dual profile, which is a mashing of the two together, by definition.