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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 08:46:17
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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[sarcasm]Leave the CCB and take the warscythe. Oh wait, you can't do that - Don't join, give the warscythe IC and throw them the warscythe. Then they'll be independent characters and can join you. Don't worry about the IC restriction on joining vehicles, because they are joining the Rider profile, so that is all ok.[/sarcasm]
But more seriously, RAW the Rider is not wargear, and it is a separable model for USR and wargear purposes, notwithstanding the misquoted sentence the pro-joining crew throw around. The constraint is the written rule that says that the Rider can't get off. It doesn't say anywhere in the Chariot rules that the Rider is not a model (in fact, the BRB specifically refers to it as a model) - it just says that you can't get off.
edit: forgot the [sarcasm] tags!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 08:54:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 08:48:11
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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So your are saying that the IC rule passes on to the war scythe but not the CCB? And both are listed as options for the overlord? And when equipped, both become one model? Did I get you right?
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 08:53:42
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MarkCron wrote:[sarcasm]Leave the CCB and take the warscythe. Oh wait, you can't do that - Don't join, give the warscythe IC and throw them the warscythe. Then they'll be independent characters and can join you. Don't worry about the IC restriction on joining vehicles, because they are joining the Rider profile, so that is all ok.[/sarcasm]
But more seriously, RAW the Rider is not wargear, and it is a separable model for USR and wargear purposes, notwithstanding the misquoted sentence the pro-joining crew throw around. The constraint is the written rule that says that the Rider can't get off. It doesn't say anywhere in the Chariot rules that the Rider is not a model (in fact, the BRB specifically refers to it as a model) - it just says that you can't get off.
milkboy wrote:So your are saying that the IC rule passes on to the war scythe but not the CCB? And both are listed as options for the overlord? And when equipped, both become one model? Did I get you right?
Oops. Left off the sarcasm tags. I've fixed it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And just in case you were serious IC can't be passed by any model to any model. Hence the problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and when you buy a CCB for the overlord, the TWO models remain separate, but the Overlord mounts (!) the Chariot to become the Rider.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 08:58:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:03:23
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle. MarkCron wrote: Oh, and when you buy a CCB for the overlord, the TWO models remain separate, but the Overlord mounts (!) the Chariot to become the Rider. Not correct, as above. You still think the CCB is a dedicated transport like it used to, but it now is a Chariot and an upgrade for the Necron Overlord.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 09:05:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:14:30
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
I know that. However in order to use the IC USR, he has to disembark to use it.
Sigvatr wrote:MarkCron wrote:
Oh, and when you buy a CCB for the overlord, the TWO models remain separate, but the Overlord mounts (!) the Chariot to become the Rider.
Not correct, as above. You still think the CCB is a dedicated transport like it used to, but it now is a Chariot and an upgrade for the Necron Overlord.
ERB Pg 510 "Characters Riding Chariots" = "A character mounted on a chariot is referred to as its rider. A rider cannot disembark from his chariot".
I don't think the CCB is a dedicated transport. Mounts was the only word I could think of to describe what was happening - I buy an overlord, grab him a CCB and he "mounts" it, so now he is "mounted".
Oh wait, it is the chariot that got mounted, right?  Really good thing this wasn't about a horse. Things could go off track really quickly Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, serious question - does anyone have a rulebook that is not in English? I read somewhere that the German rulebook has a different rule for "Objective Secured" - apparently in German rulebook Objective Secured goes to all units, not just troops in a battleforged army.
In non-english rulebooks, what does it say in the contentious first para under Chariots?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 09:18:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:25:20
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
And therin lies the problem the "horse" is a vehicle haha damn those horse growing wheels and hover plates.
RAW is very sticky in this case as much as one side or the other says it is not there would be no debate if it wasn't and it comes down to a couple of badly used words
pg.8 The citadel minitures used to play games of warhammer 40,000 are refered to as 'models' in the rules that follow. Models represent a huge variety of troops, from noble Space Marines and Brutal Orks to Warp-Spawned Daemons. To reflect all their difference, each model has its own characteristic profile.
This would suggest they are two serparate models sharing one base but...
pg. 86 A chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile (by there defination to start with two models) - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the chariot, and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model (so now they are one model with two profile breaking there previous rule :/ )
pg.86 If either the rider is reduced to 0 Wounds or his Chariot is destoryed, then the entire model is removed from play as a casualty (why the word entire unless each component is seperated not even sure GW knew what they where getting at). Your guess is a good as anyones on this part.
I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:29:57
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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MarkCron wrote: Sigvatr wrote: It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
I know that. However in order to use the IC USR, he has to disembark to use it. You got no rules to back your assertion up. Where exactly does it state that a IC loses its USR when it's a Chariot? I don't think the CCB is a dedicated transport. Mounts was the only word I could think of to describe what was happening - I buy an overlord, grab him a CCB and he "mounts" it, so now he is "mounted". Oh wait, it is the chariot that got mounted, right?  Really good thing this wasn't about a horse. Things could go off track really quickly Precision. The Overlord does not mount a CCB, it is mounted on one. This is a major difference because mounting describes an action it takes whereas "mounted on" describes it as already being on it. The CCB isn't a vehicle you buy for an Overlord, it's an upgrade similar to how wargear works. Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, serious question - does anyone have a rulebook that is not in English? I read somewhere that the German rulebook has a different rule for "Objective Secured" - apparently in German rulebook Objective Secured goes to all units, not just troops in a battleforged army. In non-english rulebooks, what does it say in the contentious first para under Chariots? Doesn't matter, the English versions are always binding. Automatically Appended Next Post: katana100 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
And therin lies the problem the "horse" is a vehicle haha damn those horse growing wheels and hover plates.
How many IC can dismount from a horse?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 09:30:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:35:09
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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Sigvatr wrote:MarkCron wrote: Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
I know that. However in order to use the IC USR, he has to disembark to use it.
You got no rules to back your assertion up. Where exactly does it state that a IC loses its USR when it's a Chariot?
I don't think the CCB is a dedicated transport. Mounts was the only word I could think of to describe what was happening - I buy an overlord, grab him a CCB and he "mounts" it, so now he is "mounted".
Oh wait, it is the chariot that got mounted, right?  Really good thing this wasn't about a horse. Things could go off track really quickly
Precision. The Overlord does not mount a CCB, it is mounted on one. This is a major difference because mounting describes an action it takes whereas "mounted on" describes it as already being on it. The CCB isn't a vehicle you buy for an Overlord, it's an upgrade similar to how wargear works.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, serious question - does anyone have a rulebook that is not in English? I read somewhere that the German rulebook has a different rule for "Objective Secured" - apparently in German rulebook Objective Secured goes to all units, not just troops in a battleforged army.
In non-english rulebooks, what does it say in the contentious first para under Chariots?
Doesn't matter, the English versions are always binding.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
katana100 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
And therin lies the problem the "horse" is a vehicle haha damn those horse growing wheels and hover plates.
How many IC can dismount from a horse?
I know right why can't IC's figure this out maybe they are all have balance issues and getting down is a problem  ... I just thought is there any IC on a horse? not that is makes any difference cavalry is easy just those damn vehicle rules getting in the way
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:44:08
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
Please read the thread before posting ludicrous statements like this. Go back read what has been read and retract this obviously false statement or admit you were intentionally lying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:49:27
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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FlingitNow wrote: I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
Please read the thread before posting ludicrous statements like this. Go back read what has been read and retract this obviously false statement or admit you were intentionally lying.
I believe one of the YMDC tenets mentioned to talk about the argument and not attack the person. Chill a little, and listen.
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:49:28
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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FlingitNow wrote: I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
Please read the thread before posting ludicrous statements like this. Go back read what has been read and retract this obviously false statement or admit you were intentionally lying.
lol chill out haha
pg.86 Shooting at chariots
When shooting at a chariot unit total up the number of success hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a pool where each dice represents a hit
The player controlling the chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the chariot of the closet model in the unit
the only slight issue is the whole chariot unit thing is that a unit with a chariot in or unit entirely made out of chariots but it could be applied either and the only real way i can see it working, doesnt really change what I said you allocate it not wounds as people have been saying
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 09:56:18
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Good advice for everyone.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 10:02:07
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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Yup agreed this discussion seems to be getting to people a lot it might be time to leave it for a bit and wait for an faq or come back to it again later
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 10:06:24
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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katana100 wrote: FlingitNow wrote: I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
Please read the thread before posting ludicrous statements like this. Go back read what has been read and retract this obviously false statement or admit you were intentionally lying.
lol chill out haha
pg.86 Shooting at chariots
When shooting at a chariot unit total up the number of success hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a pool where each dice represents a hit
The player controlling the chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the chariot of the closet model in the unit
the only slight issue is the whole chariot unit thing is that a unit with a chariot in or unit entirely made out of chariots but it could be applied either and the only real way i can see it working, doesnt really change what I said you allocate it not wounds as people have been saying
Slight issue again please read the thread this has been explain several times. If the CCB+Unit is a Chariot unit then this rule applies however as any model without a chariot in the unit has 0 HPs on their Chariot they are all instantly removed. If the CCB+Unit isn't a Chariot Unit (as most contend) then that rule can not apply. This has now been explained about 7 times which gets frustrating.
So in future please read the thread where this has been fully explained and you'd understand. If you disagree with the explanation then attack that rather than just repeat already repeatedly debunked ideas.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 10:32:44
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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FlingitNow wrote:katana100 wrote: FlingitNow wrote: I can help with the "immortal" chariot thingy pg86 tells you how to deal with this you allocate hits not wounds as people have been saying once the hits have been allocated you then roll to pen or wound and it always the closet model so other units in it can die first then make sure you firing heavy weapons to kill chariot same as any other time
Please read the thread before posting ludicrous statements like this. Go back read what has been read and retract this obviously false statement or admit you were intentionally lying.
lol chill out haha
pg.86 Shooting at chariots
When shooting at a chariot unit total up the number of success hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a pool where each dice represents a hit
The player controlling the chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the chariot of the closet model in the unit
the only slight issue is the whole chariot unit thing is that a unit with a chariot in or unit entirely made out of chariots but it could be applied either and the only real way i can see it working, doesnt really change what I said you allocate it not wounds as people have been saying
Slight issue again please read the thread this has been explain several times. If the CCB+Unit is a Chariot unit then this rule applies however as any model without a chariot in the unit has 0 HPs on their Chariot they are all instantly removed. If the CCB+Unit isn't a Chariot Unit (as most contend) then that rule can not apply. This has now been explained about 7 times which gets frustrating.
So in future please read the thread where this has been fully explained and you'd understand. If you disagree with the explanation then attack that rather than just repeat already repeatedly debunked ideas.
So that does kind of make sense in a demented way haha.
I would like to point out I have been following this thread since the start its just he arguements have been going to round and round kind of lost track of some parts and was trying to get a new spin obs just picked up on an old spin in my head and reguritated it again haha. But a quick look what you just said is the most sensible way of putting it so far instead od the attacks people have been making at each other with hundreds of quotes in them so thank you
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 10:40:31
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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katana100 wrote:But a quick look what you just said is the most sensible way of putting it so far instead od the attacks people have been making at each other with hundreds of quotes in them so thank you 
Hey I'm offended!  What about the IC rule cannot pass to CCB (and thus is you have a CCB you cannot join units) but can pass to warscythe/ MSS/left arm/right foot argument? I thought that was short and sweet!
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 11:44:43
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Interesting thoughts to ponder on: How does one prove a non-existence chariot has a Hull Point count of 0 if one does not have a Profile to reference for evidence? Then there is also the 6th edition issue where 'Reduced to 0' was distinct instructions requiring the number to go from 1 to 0 before it would trigger. Though now I am unsure as to which broken situation the ideal that starting with a - or 0 meant automatic removal as casualty caused in the past... damn memory.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 11:48:33
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 11:47:26
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sigvatr wrote:MarkCron wrote: Sigvatr wrote:
It can't disembark as it is not in a vehicle. You can only disembark from a transport (vehicle) and a Chariot isn't a Transport, it's a model type like Infantry or Cavalry. The sole difference is that it has two profiles instead of one. Actually, pretty much like cavalry. Just that the "horse" is an actual vehicle.
I know that. However in order to use the IC USR, he has to disembark to use it.
You got no rules to back your assertion up. Where exactly does it state that a IC loses its USR when it's a Chariot?
Which assertion? I'm saying that the Rider still has IC. The issue is that the CCB doesn't. So, if the Rider wants to use it, he has to disembark, which he can't. So, IC is useless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:51:23
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MarkCron wrote:The IC Rule isn't attached to the Rider profile. It's attached to the Rider, which are not the same thing.
The Rider can challenge, the Rider can overwatch, the Rider is fearless, the Rider is IC and can join a unit. These rules are explicitly assigned to the Rider in the same way that a warscythe is only useable by a Rider.
As much as you'd like the famously misquoted sentence to mean "mash the models wargear, profile and special rules together" that isn't what the rulebook says.
So, the CCB can't overwatch, it can't challenge or accept challenges and it can't join a unit because it doesn't have any of the special rules necessary.
The fact that the Rider has the special rule doesn't help, because the CCB itself has no authority to be able to join the unit.
When I upgrade the Necron Overlord to a CCB, I replace his model with the Chariot ( CCB). We are told explicitly that the Chariot ( CCB) is treated as a single model and that it has a dual profile (rider and vehicle).
The rules provide ways in which the dual profiles interoperate and which profile kicks in for which circumstance. The profiles operate in different domains for the single CCB model.
So the single CCB model can overwatch and can accept challenges via the rider profile, for example. It's not the rider as a model who does these things, but the CCB via a profile that does these things. When the rider accepts a challenge I do not take the rider out of the CCB and have him fight the challenge outside of the CCB. That would be 6th edition (where the rider has to disembark from a dedicated transport to do that).
MarkCron, your problem is that you are being told explicitly by the rules to treat the CCB as a single model with a dual profile and you somehow want to retain that you have 2 models. You are not accepting RAW. I am not misquoting the line. I am accepting it RAW. You are not accepting the definition laid out before you by the rules of the Chariot when it is defined as a single model with a dual profile.
From the BRB,
"A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model. For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider's profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."
Your response to RAW . . . " Nah, I still got two models, I don't have to follow that line because it's contradicted by their choice of words later"
My response to RAW . . . "Okay, by definition I now have a single model with a dual profile. Got it."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/05 13:58:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:54:44
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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The Hive Mind
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col_impact wrote:You are not accepting the definition laid out before you by the rules of the Chariot when it is defined as a single model with a dual profile.
Has it been proven that dual characteristic profile == shared special rules and wargear?
I'm not sure that it has.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 14:27:35
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Col_impact : I can certainly see your reasoning and the logic that it is actually the profile which is activated when a particular event occurs.
However, there are two key RAW questions remaining:
A) how do you explain the diagram which clearly shows that the profile you refer to is a characteristic profile only and does not contain the special rules? There is no reference to combining models at all, merely that the chariot has a dual profile, with those profiles being treated as a separate model.
b) How do you explain the rules wording in the rest of the section? For example, the allocation of fearless and relentless to the rider, the ability of a character rider to issue a challenge and the specific reference to the Rider's model in the ever living rule?
RAW, it appears that there continues to be two separate models, One for the CCB (which has the dual characteristic profiles, but not the Rider special rules, wargear or weaponry) and one for the Rider (and this model is specifically referred to).
This theme of the Rider (as distinct from the Rider profile) being separate is consistent through the entire Chariot rules section.
It is entirely weird that GW bothered to put the dual profiles comment in at all, as the entire section would have worked equally well without it. However, speculation about that is RAI.
If there was any doubt that the profile referred to in the first para was only a characteristic profile I think RAW is fine and RAI or HIWPI would apply. But I don't see that doubt RAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 14:40:22
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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Hey Markcron, I've got an example of dual characteristics becoming one model. See if you accept this comparison.
A marine captain has one profile. A power sword has one profile. When you put them together, they are one model. But according to your reasoning that the captains IC rule doesn't get transferred to the other profile, means this poor dude will have to throw away(dismount) his power weapon before joining his brother marines?
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 14:56:15
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
Shropshire
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milkboy wrote:Hey Markcron, I've got an example of dual characteristics becoming one model. See if you accept this comparison.
A marine captain has one profile. A power sword has one profile. When you put them together, they are one model. But according to your reasoning that the captains IC rule doesn't get transferred to the other profile, means this poor dude will have to throw away(dismount) his power weapon before joining his brother marines?
oh my god I would not want to mount a power sword that just sounds.....
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"and with but a little push it all goes BANG!!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 15:09:40
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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The Hive Mind
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milkboy wrote:Hey Markcron, I've got an example of dual characteristics becoming one model. See if you accept this comparison.
A marine captain has one profile. A power sword has one profile. When you put them together, they are one model. But according to your reasoning that the captains IC rule doesn't get transferred to the other profile, means this poor dude will have to throw away(dismount) his power weapon before joining his brother marines?
Not comparable at all. One is a model/unit/characteristic profile, the other is a weapon profile.
It's not a dual profile unit at all.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:17:54
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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katana100 wrote: milkboy wrote:Hey Markcron, I've got an example of dual characteristics becoming one model. See if you accept this comparison.
A marine captain has one profile. A power sword has one profile. When you put them together, they are one model. But according to your reasoning that the captains IC rule doesn't get transferred to the other profile, means this poor dude will have to throw away(dismount) his power weapon before joining his brother marines?
oh my god I would not want to mount a power sword that just sounds.....
That's why he's a poor dude. Not only did he have to mount it, now RAW apparently forces him to pul it out again! After all the effort getting it in! Is there a proctologist in the house?
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:34:28
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MarkCron wrote:Col_impact : I can certainly see your reasoning and the logic that it is actually the profile which is activated when a particular event occurs.
However, there are two key RAW questions remaining:
A) how do you explain the diagram which clearly shows that the profile you refer to is a characteristic profile only and does not contain the special rules? There is no reference to combining models at all, merely that the chariot has a dual profile, with those profiles being treated as a separate model.
b) How do you explain the rules wording in the rest of the section? For example, the allocation of fearless and relentless to the rider, the ability of a character rider to issue a challenge and the specific reference to the Rider's model in the ever living rule?
RAW, it appears that there continues to be two separate models, One for the CCB (which has the dual characteristic profiles, but not the Rider special rules, wargear or weaponry) and one for the Rider (and this model is specifically referred to).
This theme of the Rider (as distinct from the Rider profile) being separate is consistent through the entire Chariot rules section.
It is entirely weird that GW bothered to put the dual profiles comment in at all, as the entire section would have worked equally well without it. However, speculation about that is RAI.
If there was any doubt that the profile referred to in the first para was only a characteristic profile I think RAW is fine and RAI or HIWPI would apply. But I don't see that doubt RAW.
So yes there are contradictions in the way the Chariot section is handled. In that case you have to decide whether to weigh the definitional statements as having more weight or the places where there are slips in terminology as having more weight. I take the definitional section as having more weight since the language is very clear and explicit and intentional, ie the writers are literally giving that statement more weight. If you replace slip ups in their terminology with statements like the "Chariot (via the rider profile)" then everything starts to adhere together.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:53:52
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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MarkCron wrote:
Which assertion? I'm saying that the Rider still has IC. The issue is that the CCB doesn't. So, if the Rider wants to use it, he has to disembark, which he can't. So, IC is useless.
You got nothing to back up your points from a RAW point of view. That is the problem. RAI, I am with you. I think it's stupid to think of a Chariot joining a regular unit and everyone who does so, especially to get totally overpowered combos like Wraiths / Chariots running.
RAW is another issue. You see a conflict in the rules when there isn't. The Overlord has the IC USR. The Chariot doesn't. It doesn't have a rule that disallows joining units either, though. There aren't any rules in conflict. IC does not "go away", it stays and the BRB explicitely says that the CCB / Chariot is considered a single model for all purposes. For all purposes. As a consequence, again, RAW-wise, it shares USRs as well and IC allows it to technically join units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:57:25
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Are there any other character that are also vehicles in game?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:58:14
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Sister Vastly Superior
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Vehicles that are characters yes. Bjorn for sure.
Vehicles that are ICs? Not that I'm aware of.
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I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 16:58:24
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Sigvatr wrote:MarkCron wrote:
Which assertion? I'm saying that the Rider still has IC. The issue is that the CCB doesn't. So, if the Rider wants to use it, he has to disembark, which he can't. So, IC is useless.
You got nothing to back up your points from a RAW point of view. That is the problem. RAI, I am with you. I think it's stupid to think of a Chariot joining a regular unit and everyone who does so, especially to get totally overpowered combos like Wraiths / Chariots running.
RAW is another issue. You see a conflict in the rules when there isn't. The Overlord has the IC USR. The Chariot doesn't. It doesn't have a rule that disallows joining units either, though. There aren't any rules in conflict. IC does not "go away", it stays and the BRB explicitely says that the CCB / Chariot is considered a single model for all purposes. For all purposes. As a consequence, again, RAW-wise, it shares USRs as well and IC allows it to technically join units.
Which either makes the unit invulnerable or breaks the game as we have no way of resolving shooting at it.
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