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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 12:41:06
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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The Hive Mind
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If it's always treated as a single model, and you're treating it as two separate models, how are you following the rules you've quoted?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 14:27:36
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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[DCM]
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Accusations of 'trolling' and 'cheating' are really frowned upon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 14:27:38
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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LOL!
After 11 pages of repeating the same rules over again, I think I'm going to head off. I will leave you with this thought, as @Gravmyr has asked.
The BRB rule says that "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However a Chariot is always treated as a single model."
Let's break that down, because I think I've realised what the difference in positions is.
In the first sentence, there is some confusion about the word "profile". There is an example provided in the rulebook (that is the "see below" reference), and the diagram provided is clearly a characteristic profile. We are all familiar with characteristic profiles, and we all, I guess, associate them with a "model". However, characteristic profiles are just part of the "model" - other things like weapons, wargear etc make up the "model" that we move around the table. Within a "model" and separate to the characteristic profile, special rules are also collected.
So, the first issue is that I'm using the premise that a single model (in this case the Chariot) is entitled to have 2 characteristic profiles and that these characteristic profiles don't affect weapons, wargear or special rules. The pro joining group don't agree with this.
The second and main issue is the word "However" at the beginning of the second sentence. For me, it is clear that "However" effectively means "Even though the Chariot has 2 characteristic profiles". So the second sentence I'm interpreting as "Even though the Chariot has 2 characteristic profiles a Chariot is always treated as a single model."
Why does this make sense to me? Couple of reasons:
a) The reference to a rider model as part of the everliving rule for me clearly indicates that GW was not proposing that there was only one model, only that we were to treat the dual characteristic profiles as one model.
b) Special rules can only be assigned to models, per the rulebook. That is such a basic tenet that it seems to me to be very strange that GW would make such a basic mistake throughout the rest of the Chariot rules. Because in the rest of the Chariot rules, they routinely allocate special rules to the Rider. Now, that's consistent with the existence of a separate Rider model (as referred to in the everliving rule) - but not consistent with the pro joining argument that only a rider "profile" exists.
c) Rules are allocated to the Rider, which are clearly inconsistent with a vehicle. Challenges and Overwatch are examples, IC is the other one.
d) There is a clear example of a model with a single characteristic profile, but two separate sets of rules/abilities which can't be shared. I'm, of course, referring to fateweaver. This highlights for me that a characteristic profile is not a "model".
It's clear that we are going in circles, so we can do this for another 100 pages. But I'm going to leave that to someone else
@grav - Having two separate models does not create a problem from a movement perspective. The unit type is chariot, the Overlord is mounted and can't get away - it moves like a skimmer.
@milkboy : I did actually discuss this in my local GW today, and the clear consensus was that it the reference to "always treat as a single model" was to characteristic profiles. Hence, no IC.
Peace and chill to you too, in fact to all who have participated here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/07 14:29:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 16:59:38
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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I argue and believe that I have been arguing that a Chariot model is one model with two profiles however, it seems that I have been confusing people on how I have come to that conclusion while still allowing the CCB to join units through the IS USR.
I argue that a Profile includes Statline, Wargear, and USR's.
My Evidence is found in the Dark Angels Codex on Page 58 "Sableclaw: Should you choose to field Sammael mounted on his Land Speeder instead of his Jetbike. The Following Profile is used instead." That profile includes, USR's and Wargear for Sableclaw, as was the unit type Vehicle (Fast, Skimmer). If you only counted the statline as the profile then Sableclaw would not have any wargear, Chapter Relics, USR's or unit Type.
Now as we Already know as per page 86 of the BRB that. "A Chariot is a unusual unit with a duel profile - a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (See below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model."
We are instructed to treat both of these profiles as one model, an example is that when either the rider is killed or the Chariot is destroyed you remove the entire model. An other example is if the rider has a USR that allows it to return to battle after being removed as a casualty then the Chariot is also returned to play.
I argue that a Chariot is not given permission to fire overwatch. BRB Page 78 "Vehicle and Overwatch: Unless specified otherwise, vehicles cannot make overwatch fire." Where as the rider is given permission to overwatch Page 87 BRB: "A Rider can fire overwatch if its Chariot is charged, but it cannot shoot any of the weapons mounted on the Chariot itself." Thus permission is given for the rider but not the Chariot. Note that Overwatch is not a USR.
So how do we handle a Model that has two sets of profiles active at all times. Orikan the Diviner has one or the other profile active, but not both profiles active at one time(And both profiles have the exact same USR's), and Fate Weaver's profiles are chosen by its controller but are not active at the same time, while having the exact same USR's active. What we have in the Chariot model are two Profiles that are always one model, that are active at the same time with different sets of USR's active at the same time.
Again I use Bikes as an example.
back in 5th ed Bikes had a duel profile (Or one profile with duel stats) where one profile was t4 and one was t5, this caused confusion and in 6th and 7th ed was fixed to remove said confusion.
A Bike has the Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Relentless and Very Bulky USR's (Page 63 BRB.)
A Character that can take a Bike, may have the. And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, and Independent Character USR,s (SM Codex page 164: Captain)
When the Bike profile is combined with the Captain profile making it one model. the Captain gains all the benefits and restrictions of the bikes USR's where as the bike gains all the benefits and restrictions of the Captain USR's. The Bike cannot be taken without the captain where as the Captain can be taken without the bike.
Now to parallel with a Overlord and a CCB.
The CCB has the Living Metal, Sweep Attack, Symbiotic Repair, Jink, Relentless, Fearless, Hammer of Wrath D6 USR's.
The OverLord has the, Ever-Living, Independent Character, and Reanimation Protocols. USR's.
When the Overlord is combined with the CCB making it one model, the Overlord gains all the Benefits and restrictions from the CCB USR's, while the CCB gains all the benefits and restrictions from the Overlord's USR's. The CCB cannot be taken without an Overlord where as a Overlord can be tank without a CCB.
Just as a SM Captain is counted as a Bike Model when taking a Bike, so to is the Overlord counted as a Chariot model when taking a CCB, and just as the USR's from the Bike and Captain combined, so to do the USR's of the Overlord and CCB combined.
Thus a Overlord riding a CCB will retain all of it's USR's, Thus can join a unit while abiding by the restriction given by the IC USR.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 02:04:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 17:04:32
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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MarkCron - I think you are ducking out because you are realizing that your argument falls apart.
Your argument makes sense only if you take out all the mumbo jumbo about there being a dual profile and single model. That definitional line serves no purpose in your line of reasoning. Your argument is that basically there are 2 models. So there is this whole definitional statement at the top of the Chariot section that breaks from your reading that stands out as making no sense and being totally irrelevant to how you see a Chariot. If there are two models, why bother saying dual profile treated as single model? If we follow your line of reasoning there is no way we can make sense of everything that is included in the Chariot section. Basically we have to ignore the whole discussion of profiles since its not needed if we are actually dealing with models.
The key difference is that you are insisting on a narrow definition of the profile as strictly and only characteristics in all circumstances. However, a profile can refer to more than just characteristics. Once you wrap your mind around that, everything falls into place and makes sense. Basically, everything that is on the Necron Overlord Necron Army List entry goes into the rider profile and everything that is on the CCB Army list entry goes into the vehicle profile.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/07 17:24:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 17:33:14
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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col_impact wrote:MarkCron - I think you are ducking out because you are realizing that your argument falls apart.
When someone backs out of a discussion, for whatever reason, he should be able to do so without getting provoked. It's not cool to beat someone who's down already.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 18:25:38
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sigvatr wrote:col_impact wrote:MarkCron - I think you are ducking out because you are realizing that your argument falls apart.
When someone backs out of a discussion, for whatever reason, he should be able to do so without getting provoked. It's not cool to beat someone who's down already.
True. I retract that bit. Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay since we resolved the profile issue, it seems that we now have a solid case for a RAW argument that the CCB can join units.
Is it RAI? It's shakey at best to say that it's clearly RAI since the wound allocation part opens up a can of worms, and areas where if you literally follow the rules you get stuck.
However, let's assume you just resolve hits in a commonsensical fashion, is the CCB overpowered if its allowed to join groups?
It's self-limiting since other IC can't join the group.
It also seems to me that since you lose LOS, its only a moderate boost in power. Losing LOS is a huge nerf.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/07 20:56:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 21:48:45
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Markcron - you are told they are always treated as one model. You're treating them as two. That deliberately breaks this rule. Thus, you cannot do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 02:31:35
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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Clearly the rules allow for the CCB to be an IC. But does anyone actually think GW will FAQ this and agree? I hope they do but I seriously doubt that they will.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 02:32:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 04:03:22
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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I don't understand why they would take it away from demons and leave Necrons alone. Unless they consider a demon on a chariot too OP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 04:49:44
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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Mythra wrote:I don't understand why they would take it away from demons and leave Necrons alone. Unless they consider a demon on a chariot too OP.
it might have to do with WHFB Chariot rules as Daemons are in both games.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 05:22:03
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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An interesting combo is a CCB Overlord with Phaeron that joins a unit of Wraiths with transdimensional beamers.
Not sure if it's good, but it's interesting. It might have application against Deathstars because it circumvents the normal save pathflow, so against units with rerollable invul saves, etc.. Basically, after you hit any 6 causes a random model loss in a unit. So it's lackluster unless the unit you are going against is super hard to put down by conventional means, then its actually really good.
People have basically never taken the transdimensional beamers on the Wraiths because you could never give them relentless, until now!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 06:10:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 05:52:43
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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BLADERIKER wrote: Mythra wrote:I don't understand why they would take it away from demons and leave Necrons alone. Unless they consider a demon on a chariot too OP.
it might have to do with WHFB Chariot rules as Daemons are in both games.
Perhaps it could be because Daemons have chariot units? For a CCB to join a group of warriors, it is hampering itself more due to the mobility loss. There are only a few viable units to join to retain mobility. Even wraiths will not allow the CCB full mobility due to their differences in the run/flat out step. In 6th there was disagreement as to whether a mixed unit of bikes and infantry can run and turbo/boost (in an eldar thread I think)
Thus the only unit to join while remaining mobility are tomb blades. And tomb blades do not add much to the abilities of the CCB, as CCB alone already does enough damage. With no Look out sir for the CCB, the only advantage is protection of e tomb blades vs small arms I guess.
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DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 07:16:18
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yea, I am looking for any broken combos that could be unleashed if a CCB overlord joins units and I am not finding any.
There aren't too many instances where an opposing player would want to shoot the unit that is being shielded by the CCB Overlord rather than the CCB Overlord himself. I imagine it might be a strong strategy to taxi a unit of wraiths to a Tau gunline using a CCB Overlord, but that just seems strong and not broken, and Tau certainly have the strength of fire to have a decent chance of cutting down the CCB Overlord.
Maybe you could use the CCB Overlord to taxi a unit of scarabs to a group of enemy vehicles. Strong tactic, sure, but not broken.
Looks like it unleashes some interesting tactical lines of play, but nothing broken or unfair.
The loss of LOS really does seem to keep this in check and the fact that you are prohibited from adding any more ICs to the unit also keeps it well under control.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 07:20:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 07:46:21
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Repentia Mistress
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Actually, I only wanted to join the CCB to 3 tomb blades. All because I want to have a Chmmr Avatar.
http://star-control.com/fan/models/dragon/Images/Chmmr%20Avatar.png Automatically Appended Next Post: But maybe this is too ancient for some to know/remember.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/08 07:49:29
DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 08:02:46
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Yeah too ancient. The Spathi B.u.t.t. missiles were the best. The cowards fire backwards utilized tracking torpedoes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 09:29:34
Subject: Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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Mythra wrote:Yeah too ancient. The Spathi B.u.t.t. missiles were the best. The cowards fire backwards utilized tracking torpedoes.
Unless you were facing your enemy. They you hit yourself.
So glad Stardock is the company making the series reboot. They're really the studio for it.
Sorry for the OT, Star Control references are to few and far between to pass up.
Carry on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 23:41:21
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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col_impact wrote:Yea, I am looking for any broken combos that could be unleashed if a CCB overlord joins units and I am not finding any.
There aren't too many instances where an opposing player would want to shoot the unit that is being shielded by the CCB Overlord rather than the CCB Overlord himself. I imagine it might be a strong strategy to taxi a unit of wraiths to a Tau gunline using a CCB Overlord, but that just seems strong and not broken, and Tau certainly have the strength of fire to have a decent chance of cutting down the CCB Overlord.
Maybe you could use the CCB Overlord to taxi a unit of scarabs to a group of enemy vehicles. Strong tactic, sure, but not broken.
Looks like it unleashes some interesting tactical lines of play, but nothing broken or unfair.
The loss of LOS really does seem to keep this in check and the fact that you are prohibited from adding any more ICs to the unit also keeps it well under control.
The strength in this combo lies in what generally takes down a D. Lord, which is volume of fire and that is generally the lower S shots. If a CCB can join wraiths or scarabs, the the CCB can fly at the front and allocate small arms fire to the barge, which will just bounce off the 13 Armour of the quantum shielding. Higher S shots can be LoS to a wraith or allocated to the rider( or even just stay with the CCB as everything will now have a 3++ inv. save in a Wraith unit. The D. Lord in the past would tank with his 2+ save but had no inv. so volume of fire would generally widel down the D lords wounds, or you lose a few wraiths before reaching combat.
The Phaeron option giving relentless to wraiths does make the transdimensional Beamer very interesting...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 01:04:44
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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NecronLord3 wrote:col_impact wrote:Yea, I am looking for any broken combos that could be unleashed if a CCB overlord joins units and I am not finding any.
There aren't too many instances where an opposing player would want to shoot the unit that is being shielded by the CCB Overlord rather than the CCB Overlord himself. I imagine it might be a strong strategy to taxi a unit of wraiths to a Tau gunline using a CCB Overlord, but that just seems strong and not broken, and Tau certainly have the strength of fire to have a decent chance of cutting down the CCB Overlord.
Maybe you could use the CCB Overlord to taxi a unit of scarabs to a group of enemy vehicles. Strong tactic, sure, but not broken.
Looks like it unleashes some interesting tactical lines of play, but nothing broken or unfair.
The loss of LOS really does seem to keep this in check and the fact that you are prohibited from adding any more ICs to the unit also keeps it well under control.
The strength in this combo lies in what generally takes down a D. Lord, which is volume of fire and that is generally the lower S shots. If a CCB can join wraiths or scarabs, the the CCB can fly at the front and allocate small arms fire to the barge, which will just bounce off the 13 Armour of the quantum shielding. Higher S shots can be LoS to a wraith or allocated to the rider( or even just stay with the CCB as everything will now have a 3++ inv. save in a Wraith unit. The D. Lord in the past would tank with his 2+ save but had no inv. so volume of fire would generally widel down the D lords wounds, or you lose a few wraiths before reaching combat.
The Phaeron option giving relentless to wraiths does make the transdimensional Beamer very interesting...
I do need to Correct this.
As per Page 100 BRB. 'When a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters". As the Overlord is now unit type Chariot when upgraded to a CCB he is restricted from making LOS as he now counts as a vehicle Character. Thus he cannot LOS high Str Wounds allocated against the Overlord.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 01:40:19
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yea, the loss of LOS is a huge nerf to the benefits of joining a unit for the CCB Overlord.
All in all, when a CCB Overlord joins a unit, its seems . . . . balanced. He gives up mobility and ablative LOS armor for the ability to shield a unit. No brokenness spotted so far. Just a better D Lord, which is not surprising since it costs a bunch more and the boost in power is commensurate with the boost in cost.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 01:42:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 01:59:48
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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BLADERIKER wrote: NecronLord3 wrote:col_impact wrote:Yea, I am looking for any broken combos that could be unleashed if a CCB overlord joins units and I am not finding any.
There aren't too many instances where an opposing player would want to shoot the unit that is being shielded by the CCB Overlord rather than the CCB Overlord himself. I imagine it might be a strong strategy to taxi a unit of wraiths to a Tau gunline using a CCB Overlord, but that just seems strong and not broken, and Tau certainly have the strength of fire to have a decent chance of cutting down the CCB Overlord.
Maybe you could use the CCB Overlord to taxi a unit of scarabs to a group of enemy vehicles. Strong tactic, sure, but not broken.
Looks like it unleashes some interesting tactical lines of play, but nothing broken or unfair.
The loss of LOS really does seem to keep this in check and the fact that you are prohibited from adding any more ICs to the unit also keeps it well under control.
The strength in this combo lies in what generally takes down a D. Lord, which is volume of fire and that is generally the lower S shots. If a CCB can join wraiths or scarabs, the the CCB can fly at the front and allocate small arms fire to the barge, which will just bounce off the 13 Armour of the quantum shielding. Higher S shots can be LoS to a wraith or allocated to the rider( or even just stay with the CCB as everything will now have a 3++ inv. save in a Wraith unit. The D. Lord in the past would tank with his 2+ save but had no inv. so volume of fire would generally widel down the D lords wounds, or you lose a few wraiths before reaching combat.
The Phaeron option giving relentless to wraiths does make the transdimensional Beamer very interesting...
I do need to Correct this.
As per Page 100 BRB. 'When a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters". As the Overlord is now unit type Chariot when upgraded to a CCB he is restricted from making LOS as he now counts as a vehicle Character. Thus he cannot LOS high Str Wounds allocated against the Overlord.
Not true, as the controlling player I can choose to allocate the shot to either the non-vehicle profile of my rider, which can LoS, or the chariot profile which is a vehicle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:01:30
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The rider is just a profile on a single model unit that is a vehicle. So the rider is always a vehicle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:06:11
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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col_impact wrote:The rider is just a profile on a single model unit that is a vehicle. So the rider is always a vehicle.
Not according to page 86:
A non-vehicle profile for the rider...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 02:06:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:09:31
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sure, but ask yourself what model type and what unit type is the rider a profile for? And do you apply LOS to models or to profiles?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 02:14:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:14:38
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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col_impact wrote:Sure, but ask yourself what model type and what unit type is the rider a profile for?
The profile is for an Overlord which can select a CCB to which he becomes the non-vehicle rider for. You as the attacker cannot target my rider seperately from the chariot as a unit. However, per the rules also on page 86, as the controlling player I choose to allocate the hits to either the non- vehicle rider(which is an IC and capable of LoS) or the chariot (which is a vehicle and not eligible for LoS).
I believe you are confusing the model type change in the FAQ as it referes to the CCB being a vehicle(chariot), the unit type of an overlord selecting a CCB doesn't change he simply becomes the rider for the chariot.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/09 02:16:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:26:44
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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With Chariots we are told explicitly that we are dealing with one model. So a wound is allocated to the Chariot and LOS can be taken.And LOS applies to the model. So what is the model and unit type of the Chariot?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 02:33:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 02:37:49
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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col_impact wrote:With Chariots we are told explicitly that we are dealing with one model. So a wound is allocated to the Chariot and LOS can be taken.And LOS applies to the model. So what is the model and unit type of the Chariot?
it is a dual profile unit, one of which is a vehicle, the other a non vehicle. As the controlling player I choose which profile to allocate hits to.
Page 100 also explicitly states that LoS applies to non-vehicle characters. It never factors in unit or model type. Is the rider of a CCB infantry, no. Is he a non-vehicle character? Very specifically, yes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 03:03:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 03:08:38
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wounds are allocated to models. And then LOS may kick in if it can apply. In the case of the Chariot a wound is being allocated to a vehicle that is also an IC. The rider is just a profile and so cannot have wounds allocated to it. The Chariot rules specify using the rider profile to allocate hits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 03:48:45
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
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NecronLord3 wrote:col_impact wrote:With Chariots we are told explicitly that we are dealing with one model. So a wound is allocated to the Chariot and LOS can be taken.And LOS applies to the model. So what is the model and unit type of the Chariot?
it is a dual profile unit, one of which is a vehicle, the other a non vehicle. As the controlling player I choose which profile to allocate hits to.
Page 100 also explicitly states that LoS applies to non-vehicle characters. It never factors in unit or model type. Is the rider of a CCB infantry, no. Is he a non-vehicle character? Very specifically, yes.
This is wrong. The rules and restrictions of both profiles on the model must be taken into account. This has been the entire reason this thread has been going on so long.
The Overlord part of the profile has IC which means it is normally entitled to a LOS.
The CCB part of the profile is a vehicle which is not entitled to a LOS.
We are instructed to treat these two profiles as one model, thus we have a IC that is also a Vehicle.
The Overlord with a CCB upgrade is a Vehicle Character and thus is not entitled to a LOS due to the restriction given in the LOS rule set.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 03:53:03
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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This is a very sticky rules question...
Dual profile single model unit. One is an IC Infantry that becomes the "Rider", the other is a Vehicle.
We have no permission for vehicles to join units unless they are vehicle squadrons., even then they have to be bought as squadrons.
But, IC have permission to join units.
Does IC override vehicle rules? Does IC transfer to the vehicle half of the Profile? We really aren't given the tools to completely rectify this problem.
IC tells us that special rules do not transfer unless they are told they do. IC is one such rule that doesn't transfer to its unit. Only half, the Rider has the IC rule which does not transfer to the rest of the unit. It has two profiles, each with their own special rules which don't necessarily transfer to the rest of the unit. Here is a lot of precedent for keeping or seep rating portions of the single model dual profile unit.
The Disembarking language, "A Rider cannot disembark from his chariot." If it cannot disembark, it is some how unclearly defined as embarked. An embarked IC could not join a unit without disembarking, etc.
It's messy....
I feel the situation is very unclear but has established precedence in the Chaos Daemons Codex, where Heralds, ICs, are given the option to take Chariots becoming the riders. They have been errated to lose their Independent Character Status. I imagine with the next set of FAQ updates the same will be clear for the CCB.
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