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2018/06/11 00:32:28
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
BLADERIKER wrote: You allocate wounds after you allocate hits. (Page 32-34 BRB) The Player controlling the Chariot decides which hit pools hit what. (Page 86 BRB) "Para phrased"
Every time FlingitNow plays a game he automatically wins (BrB page 1 paraphrased).
Look I can do it too.
Why do you persist in making this factually incorrect statement? Why are you intentionally misleading people on what the rules say? Why are you making claims that you know are entirely false?
You can not assign hits to the Rider or Chariot when attached to a unit. This is only for shooting at Chariot units which the CCB attached to another unit is not. So please stop claiming tjis to be true when you know it is not. Intentionally telling people things you know are true really hinders resolution of the discussion and gets frustrating for those that have to repeatedly point out when you intentionally mislead people.
Very well then As it has been stated and restated many times before so shall I again state it. My attempt at para phrasing was to shorten the length of the quote without changing its context..
This time without Para-Phrasing.
Page 30 (32-34 for better explanation of page 30) BRB: "The Shooting Sequence:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A Models Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A Model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (If it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6."
And that is the shooting Sequence.
As per Page 86 BRB: "Shooting at Chariots: When shooting at a Chariot unit total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hit and create a 'pool', where each dice represents a hit." (Bold Text only)
As per Page 86 BRB: "Shooting at Chariots: The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the chariot of the closest model in the unit." (Bold Text Only)
Now let us take into account that the Chariot Rules are more specific than the Shooting Sequence rules and thus over ride the normal Shooting Sequence.
The Chariot rules break the Shooting Sequence after step 4 but before Step 5.
You have gone out of your way to state that an Overlord with CCB upgrade attached to another unit is not a Chariot unit. To this I do not disagree. And unlike you I will show why you are correct in this statement.
Page 9 BRB. "Forming a unit: A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine of rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right."
Page 166 BRB. "Independent Characters: While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."
There is one issue that you keep bringing up, which is how to resolve hitting and wounding a Overlord with CCB upgrade in a Unit.
Page 34 BRB. "Allocating wounds: First allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit, regardless of which model caused that Wound."
And that is where you are stuck right there.
As the Overlord upgraded with CCB is also a Vehicle it may well help us to look at how to shoot at Vehicles.
Page 74 BRB. "Shooting at Vehicles: If the target vehicle is in range, roll to hit as normal. If hits are scored, roll each to see if they penetrate the vehicles Armour Value."
I do not believe I need to go into Glancing and Penetrating hit and the Vehicle Damage chart, or do I...
So then we have a Overlord with CCB upgrade attached to a Unit of 6 wraiths. (Why not)
Scenario 1: Space Wolf Drop Pod with 10 Wolfguard equiped with double Combi-Melta on each model drop in so that the wraiths are the closest models in the Overlords unit.
Space Wolf player declares Overlords unit as target for Wolfguard.
There are 4 wraiths in the unit that are closer than the Overlord/CCB model. Here is how I would recommend handling this situation.
Because the Chariot model allows its controller to allocate hits directed at the chariot only and there is a chance that each of the four wraiths will be instant Death-ed by the Combi-meltas, the shooting player Fires all the combi-meltas at one time. Then rolls to wound four at a time .If any of the wraiths fail their 3+ invul then the number of wounds rolled for the next pool is reduced to the number of remaining wraiths before the Overlord/CCB is the target. (yes this is time consuming I know) Once all four wraiths are dead then the remain Combi-Meltas hits can be resolved as per the chariot rule. Still wounding against majority Toughness if the Overlord profile is selected for wound allocation.
Scenario 2: 3 Broadside Battle Suits with High Yield Missile Pods, and Smart Missile systems, and 6 Missile Drones are firing at the Overlord with CCB upgrade and attached Wraiths.
The Overlord is the closest model to the Broadside unit and there are 6 marker lights on the Overlord's unit.
The Broadsides and Drones hit with everything, nothing misses. There are 12 Str 7 ap4 hits (HYMP), 12 Str 7 ap 4 Hits (MD), and 12 Str 5 ap 5 hits(SMS). All of which must hit the closest model which is the Overlord. As per the Shooting at Chariots rules set the controlling player allocates the 12 (SMS) hits against the CCB to no effect. Then Allocates the 12 HYMP hits to the rider (Which Wound against Majority Toughness, in this case T4 because of the wraiths) Wounding on 2+. The Overlord rolls his saving throws of a 2+ and fails 2 (Statistically average) he then allocates the 12 (MP) hits to the chariot which will need a 6 to glance and takes 2 glances (Statistically average) Thus leaving the Overlord profile at 1 wound and the CCB profile at one Hull Point.
The Overlord is Prohibited from Taking LOS due to him being a Vehicle and a Character. I have covered this already in another post in this thread.
Can this take longer to resolve a shooting phase against an Overlord with CCB upgrade and attached to a unit? Yes it could. Does it break the game? No it does not.
To throw an answer to the "Why did Daemons lose their IC and not the Necron Overlord" I think we need to look at how the Chariot Rules for Fantasy work and what restrictions are placed upon the Chariot unit under that rule set. Note; There is one and only one fantasy Army that can attach Chariots to units, The Tomb Kings. Games Work Shop is in the business of selling models, and what better way to get a Cross over from one GW game system to another than to make the Rule sets extremely similar. Just my two cents.
So much longer than when I expected other people to go and read the rules in their rule book themselves...
That works fine, now do that same scenario with the Chariot the 6th model in from the front.
Naw wrote: Worry not, the rules lawyers will just point out that the IC does not join the CCB, instead he will join the wraiths unit that also includes the CCB. Therefore everything is just fine..
Still waiting on your rules quotes, do you have access again?
They can be found under rules for IC's..
That's not a quote.
Please note that just saying 'it's in the rules' is not sufficient for the purposes of discussion here. You need to back up a rules claim with actual rules.
That has been done often enough with actual quotes and the position was fully explained to him.
I was done with this until he claimed that CCBIC has a permission to join any unit, including other IC. His reasoning was that it was not the IC joining.
Anyway, I'm done with his game now.
Actually that is another lie. You have yet to provide a single rules quote that backs up your assertions (that a vehicle IC is prohibited from joining any non-vehicle, non-MC containing unit, the units join ICs) in any way, shape or form.
My "reasoning" is "because the rules state who joins whom". Your reasoning? You have yet to provide any. No rules quotes, no argument from facts. Just repeated assertions, accusations of faulty logic, and lots of handwaving away requirements to cite rules for various spurious reasons. No actual rules, though. Youve even done it here, after a mod pointed out your failings.
I have learnt my lesson though - arguing is impossible when the other side refuses to cite relevant rules, and creates concepts out of thin air.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 15:16:22
2014/02/22 13:28:13
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
Thing about most the arguments here is the cherry picking of rules quotes, or the complete misreading of the rules.
The chariot and rider when shot at have the rule that the controlling player gets to put all the hits of the same time into pools. Ie. A mixed units gun all fire then hit pools of all the different guns are pooled up. , hell better yet just re-read the shooting at chariots section.
Also you will note you cannot look out sir the wounds from either to the imaginary unit you joined. There is no permission to do this not a mechanic spelled out. A chariot has its own rules now for the chariot and the rider.
For the crowd that says the IC's special rules transfer over to the chariot they don't. In the independant character rules sections it states they don't unless the usr specifically states it does and cites and example of the usr stubborn. Nor the chariots back to the rider. Its a vehicle , never ceases to be a vehicle ever riderless or not. Vehicles cannot join units and vice versa. I'm sure that rule is some where's in the seventh edition rule book.
Lungpickle wrote: Thing about most the arguments here is the cherry picking of rules quotes, or the complete misreading of the rules.
The chariot and rider when shot at have the rule that the controlling player gets to put all the hits of the same time into pools. Ie. A mixed units gun all fire then hit pools of all the different guns are pooled up. , hell better yet just re-read the shooting at chariots section.
You say cherry pick rules quotes and complete misreading, yet you are doing that here. That rule does not belong to the Chariot and Rider is it a rule is ONLY activated when someone is shooting a Chariot unit. It is therefore not usable when shooting at a mixed unit containing a Chariot.
Also you will note you cannot look out sir the wounds from either to the imaginary unit you joined. There is no permission to do this not a mechanic spelled out. A chariot has its own rules now for the chariot and the rider.
On this everyone agrees.
For the crowd that says the IC's special rules transfer over to the chariot they don't. In the independant character rules sections it states they don't unless the usr specifically states it does and cites and example of the usr stubborn. Nor the chariots back to the rider. Its a vehicle , never ceases to be a vehicle ever riderless or not. Vehicles cannot join units and vice versa. I'm sure that rule is some where's in the seventh edition rule book.
Done
Not content with cherry picking parts of rules to use you then start making them up out of thin air. The IC rules state an IC can't join a Vehicle (or MC) not vice versa. So a Vehicle IC can clearly join vehicles.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Lung pickle - nope. ICs cannot join vehicles. Nothing about vehicle ICs joining non vehicle units. Really, there isn't
It is one unit, treated at all times as one model. The model has the IC rule
It's not cherry picking when your rebuttal requires making up rules and ignoring others....
Well put
As for talking about wounds and the Overlord with CCB upgrade joined to a unit.
If you have an IC in any unit and there are 5 other models that have more than one wound each (Like Wraiths) in front of the IC, when you roll to wound with a Weapon that causes ID due to Double Toughness but the IC's toughness is high enough to not be effected by the ID rule, do you roll all your wounds and then make him save against them? or do you roll the number of Possible ID wounds before it gets to the IC and then see who fails?
Example:
Necron player has Dlord w SWeave. + 6 Wraiths.
Firing Player with a Knight Paladin.
Firing player scores two direct hits with his battle Cannon hitting 14 total models (7+7=14) on the unit from a direction where 5 wraiths will take wounds before you get to the Destroyer Lord. battle Cannons are str8- Ap 3 which will ID the wraiths t4 3+ save but will not ID the DLord with t6 2+ save. So if you roll all the wounds and caused against said unit 10 wounds, and the Necron player fails 10 3+saves when does he get to make saves with his Dlords Better save of a 2+?
The answer is: you should roll the wounds for each model with the same save before you roll to wound the model with the Better save. Which means those successful hits that have not been rolled as wounds are still hits until you roll to wound.
Also "Hits caused by Blast Templates are always Resolved against the Chariot" BRB Page 86. (Just an FYI) This is the reason I am switching to Krakk Missiles and chaging the unit size in my next Example.
SM player with Land Speeder Squadron (3 Land Speeders) (3 Hvy Bolters, and 3 Typhoon Missiles Launchers)(Prescience active)
Necron Overlord w Sempweave, and CCB upgrades(Not jinking) attached to 3 Wraiths.
Sm player is firing his Krakk Missiles (Str 8 ap3) at the Necron Unit. 6 Shots, 5 hits after re-rolls. There is one wraith before the Overlord/CCB is the nearest model. Because the Overlord has a Better save (2+) than the Wraiths (3+) and a Higher Toughness (T5) the Wraiths (T4) each would which could cause ID against the Wraiths will have to rolled one at a time until either the hit and wound pools are empty or the Overlord is the nearest Model. When the Overlord becomes the nearest model those remain hits that have not been rolled into wounds can be allocated to either the Overlord or the CCB as per the Chariot Rule set (Page 86. BRB) and then resolved against Armour value or Toughness depending on which profiles was chosen by the Necron Player.
This above scenario is why one Should roll wounds for like saves against mixed save units, and then roll wounds and or Armour Pen in this case against the other saves. in the unit.
This is How I have played it in the past due to trying to be a good sport with my fellow Hobbyist.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 23:42:01
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2014/06/10 23:48:28
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
BLADERIKER wrote: Firing player scores two direct hits with his battle Cannon hitting 14 total models (7+7=14) on the unit from a direction where 5 wraiths will take wounds before you get to the Destroyer Lord. battle Cannons are str8- Ap 3 which will ID the wraiths t4 3+ save but will not ID the DLord with t6 2+ save. So if you roll all the wounds and caused against said unit 10 wounds, and the Necron player fails 10 3+saves when does he get to make saves with his Dlords Better save of a 2+?
The answer is: you should roll the wounds for each model with the same save before you roll to wound the model with the Better save. Which means those successful hits that have not been rolled as wounds are still hits until you roll to wound.
Oh dear, just oh dear. Have you read the shooting phase rules? You roll all wounds then take saves 1 at a time. You can use fast dice rolling 5 saves first then rolling less saves at a time depending on how many surviving Wraiths are between the Knight and the D Lord.
BLADERIKER wrote: Firing player scores two direct hits with his battle Cannon hitting 14 total models (7+7=14) on the unit from a direction where 5 wraiths will take wounds before you get to the Destroyer Lord. battle Cannons are str8- Ap 3 which will ID the wraiths t4 3+ save but will not ID the DLord with t6 2+ save. So if you roll all the wounds and caused against said unit 10 wounds, and the Necron player fails 10 3+saves when does he get to make saves with his Dlords Better save of a 2+?
The answer is: you should roll the wounds for each model with the same save before you roll to wound the model with the Better save. Which means those successful hits that have not been rolled as wounds are still hits until you roll to wound.
Oh dear, just oh dear. Have you read the shooting phase rules? You roll all wounds then take saves 1 at a time. You can use fast dice rolling 5 saves first then rolling less saves at a time depending on how many surviving Wraiths are between the Knight and the D Lord.
To the best of my knowledge; Never before in WH40K has there been a single model with duel profiles (Which are both active at the same time) where the player controlling that model gets to choose which profile gets hit by which shooting attacks, and have said shooting attacks be resolved against said profile. Also to the Best of my Knowledge: There has never been a Vehicle with the IC rule until now. (Whether it is a mistake on the part of GW or a Deliberate action taken for this new edition we cannot know as yet)
Because the Chariot rules regarding how to shoot at a Chariot (BRB Page 86) are more specific than the normal Shooting rules there must be some concession made about how to deal with it. Hence my attempts to reconcile these issue until either GW does,(one way or the other) or those that do not wish to play against it (Like those that would not play against a knight when Codex Imperial Knights was released because they said knights were Op, only to find they were not as OP as they thought) simply lose out on playing.
From what I have seen there is nothing broken about the Overlord with the CCB upgrade , being attached to legal unit type.
You still wound the unit it is in at majority Toughness.
It is restricted to only move as fast as the unit it is attached to.
It cannot take LOS rolls.
If the CCB suffers an Explode result then the attached unit will likely take the brunt of it.
The issue is how to Resolve wounds against it when the controlling player has not chosen where to allocate the hits that caused those wounds.
So my option is to allocate hits as normal to those models that are nearer to the shooter than the Overlord/CCB, and then separate those hits into pools equal to the number of models that are nearer to the shooter than the Overlord/CCB, then roll to wound those models that are closer, until either all of those models fail their saves and are removed or the hit pools empty. Then should the Overlord CCB be the nearest model the controlling player then determines which profile is going to take which set of hits. Resolve those hits that could ID/Explode the Overlord/CCB and resolve them one at a time, and should it Die/Explode then take those remaining hit pools and resolve them as normal against the remain part of the unit.
Complicated? A little. Without Clear Guidance from GW on this matter, we either ignore or attempt to destroy this new and interesting option, or we embrace it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 00:39:37
Been reading the whole thing and skipping around a little bit but..... wouldn't you just allocate the wounds to the rider since that is the profile that can take wounds on this"one model"? Or has this notion come up but debunked or refuted?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Oberron wrote: Been reading the whole thing and skipping around a little bit but..... wouldn't you just allocate the wounds to the rider since that is the profile that can take wounds on this"one model"? Or has this notion come up but debunked or refuted?
I believe one of the posters have mentioned that there is no specified way in the rulebook to do so. Thus, concluding that joining is not possible, if wound allocation is not possible.
The new chariot rules mention, if the chariot unit is shot at, hit allocation first, then the owner of the chariot decides which hit goes to the rider and which hit goes to the chariot. And wounding or penetration roll is rolled. This is different from the usual wound allocation method.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My belief is that hit allocation can work for mixed units as well; you would just roll wounding and penetration accordingly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 06:42:46
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But according to a few of the posters if the chariot joins a unit its no longer a chariot unit. Which makes since since an IC is joinging a unit and becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes (pg 166 "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rule for characters." if anyone wanted a page and para for it). And since it is no longer a chariot unit that means it just follows normal shooting procedure wouldn't it?
I might just be at a loss where people are getting at with the whole allocating wounds to the chariot profile breaks the game part.
Edit: This is just a guess and not HWIP. I'd make a call when i see it in game played against me and even then i'd just do the dice roll if there is a problem on page 10 under the Most Important Rule just to get the game on with it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 07:00:16
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
One solution proposed was to just allocate to the rider, since it is a wound. But as there is no rule specifying it, the argument is that is cannot be done at all.
The definition about a chariot unit is not specified in the chariot rules. It required players to seek another rule, to try to get an analogy of what it means. It could be meant that way, or it could be poor rule writing, as chariot rules are only just updated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I see it, I find the counter argument for not joining is a little cumbersome as it relies on the fact that wound allocation is not properly specified and thus, it must mean that a chariot cannot join. This uses a secondary rule to suppress the IC rule.
If the argument was that the IC rule cannot be passed to the Overlord, this is a more direct line of argument. However, the counter argument is that the chariot has become an upgrade to the Overlord, similar to bikes, jump packs, Juggernauts etc. if the IC rule is automatically conferred to these upgrades and mounts, why should it not automatically transfer to the CCB.
Finally, if having IC required transferring to the CCB, and without transferring, the chariot character cannot join units, why was there a need to remove IC status from Daemons? Keeping it would not harm them, if the argument of transferring is accepted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 07:07:16
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milkboy wrote: One solution proposed was to just allocate to the rider, since it is a wound. But as there is no rule specifying it, the argument is that is cannot be done at all.
The definition about a chariot unit is not specified in the chariot rules. It required players to seek another rule, to try to get an analogy of what it means. It could be meant that way, or it could be poor rule writing, as chariot rules are only just updated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I see it, I find the counter argument for not joining is a little cumbersome as it relies on the fact that wound allocation is not properly specified and thus, it must mean that a chariot cannot join. This uses a secondary rule to suppress the IC rule.
If the argument was that the IC rule cannot be passed to the Overlord, this is a more direct line of argument. However, the counter argument is that the chariot has become an upgrade to the Overlord, similar to bikes, jump packs, Juggernauts etc. if the IC rule is automatically conferred to these upgrades and mounts, why should it not automatically transfer to the CCB.
Chariots and the complexity around them in this instance are not really comparable to bikes, Jump packs, etc, those change the profile of the rider, the chariot retains the profiles of the transport and the rider, they join rather than replace. The CCB profile is does not have the IC rule, GW could have easily FAQ'd that IN also. Massive difference. It's evident when reading the chariot rules they have not accounted for a situation a chariot is in a unit with other models.
A little bit of caution should be taken over the ' one model ' thing, both profiles should still be accounted for, If not not really any point in having 2 distinct profiles.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 09:22:01
milkboy wrote: Nem, what do you think about the removal of IC from daemons? Was that a necessary change? If it was, what could it have been done to prevent?
I think it was necessary to avoid confusion, but if it necessary to stop CCB's joining other units? No, not by the rules. I would hazard a guess in later publications a model being taken as a rider will always lose some rules - ones that are not compatible with being a chariot (Like this one). At the moment we have some veeery sloppy 'fix's' between editions.
One model is very direct, not always correct. I agree much with what MarkCron was posting earlier in the thread, he quoted the relevant parts so didn't reiterate at that time. You have a Rider and a Vehicle which is one model. The Rider can join a unit, the Vehicle can not (Via not being a IC). The part about one model makes that very confusing. However, Markcron satisfied me with the quotes outlining how nether uses special rules or war gear / weapons of the other (as in, in some cases they defiantly do act like 2 models) - In other words one model probably means more about one physical model than an actual duel profile model.
As for special rules, interestingly they are given to the model for being bought with the unit. Either a chariot unit is something that doesn't actually exist, or the Overlord also does not have IC rule because the unit for the rider doesn't exist. Again they've drastically changed some rules to be none conformist, and the old rules are not written to accommodate, and the FAQ's for them are lacking.
The rebuttal is RAW should be X because a FAQ for a different army insinuates it's correct is, while plausible and should be taken into consideration, but it's as likely they mucked up on the 'Cron FAQ. That's all in RAI territory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 10:28:09
I disagree that it isnt one model as in 40k idea of model - it certainly is, at it talks about the exception being the two profiles. IT therefore still fulfills the criteria for a single model AND the ic rules talk about the "iC" joining the unit, which we know IS a model joining a unit. So the vehicle has "permission" as you are told the model can join, and the vehicle is the model (is the IC)
Is it the clearest thing they could have done? Absolutely not, however I am not sure it wasnt intended. They just didnt think about he consequenmces (wound allocation vs hit allocaiton, for one!)
2014/06/11 21:23:23
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
I would like to add something I found last night under special rules that I thought applied.
Page 156 BRB Compendium of Special Rules: Last paragraph. "Unless Specifically Stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
With the Chariot Rules (on Page 86 of the BRB) stating that a Chariot model has two profiles but is always treated as one model, and the quote I gave above regarding USR's
I argue that profiles include: Stat line's, War-gear, USR's, Unit Types,(Sometimes other things).
The Overlord profile that was its own stand alone model with its own USR's and the CCB profile with it's own stand alone model and USR's are fused into one model, Which gives us an Overlord Riding a CCB, with both Profiles active and both profile's USR's affecting the new Model. This would allow the to Rider benefit from the jink USR (Which for Daemons could be better than their Invul save) and the Vehcile benefit from the riders USR's. I would also point out the when both profiles are combined into one model the different USR's are cumulative as per the USR rules set. There are multiple USR's effecting this one hybrid model.
Secondly the CCB profile does not have the ICUSR and can thus benefit from it, while the Ovelord does not have the Jink USR and can thus benefit from it. The CCB does not have the Ever-Living Special Rule unlike the Overlord but, will benefit from it should either of the two profiles reach zero wounds or zero hull points. Further more the Ever-living Special Rule will benefit from the Rez Orb War-gear rules.
I also would argue that the Overlord's Unit type changes from Infantry to Vehicle when riding on a CCB and here is why.
page 100 BRB: Characters and Moving: "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
If I have an infantry Overlord on foot he moves like infantry (Character), where as if I have a Overlord upgraded with CCB he moves like Vehicle (Chariot, Fast Skimmer). If the Overlord could disembark then there would be no reason to believe the Overlords unit type changed, as he is simply being transported by the chariot and not part of the chariot model. I know there is nothing stating in the chariot rules that the rider changes its unit type but, it does state that the rider can never disembark and if one profile dies they are both removed. If I apply the rules for Characters to the Overlord with CCB, I then could make the argument the Overlord is now a vehicle as he moves like a (Vehicle: Chariot, Fast, Skimmer.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 21:27:15
I very much hope this is the case. I've been wanting to run 6 wraiths with trans-dimensional beamers. Allowing a phaeron overlord to join the wraith unit and keep up would be very helpful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 09:40:43
The overlords unit type would stay infantry - or he would be would be subject to vehicle rules (Having AV, no armor saves etc). The profile would have to remain infantry to work.
The CCB would remain a vehicle unit. The profile would remain a vehicle.
'Unit type' is not based on the actual unit, it is based on the model.
So... ?
When using them both together, they move etc like a Chariot, but still take their profiles as a separate (not both vehicles, not both infantry and not truly chariot) Changing in this way is quite unprecedented, which is causing (I am guessing) unforeseen problems.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 10:21:33
Oh definitely causing issues. Should really have operated like fantasy, where multiple statlines on one model are common, and dont cause these issues. However AV really does mess up this system in a number of ways...
Ffyllotek wrote: I very much hope this is the case. I've been wanting to run 6 wraiths with trans-dimensional beamers. Allowing a phaeron overlord to join the wraith unit and keep up would be very helpful.
Just an option, Obyron or a Veiltek can escort a Phaeron lord to the squad, then it can fire.
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milkboy wrote: Nem, what do you think about the removal of IC from daemons? Was that a necessary change? If it was, what could it have been done to prevent?
. The Achilles heal to a screamer star is sniping out the herald with the Grimore. A chariot equipped herald with a Grimore becomes much harder to kill.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 13:18:18
The only forbidden joining by the rules is an IC to a MC or Vehicle and we know it can work the other way around b/c we have an example in the Tyranid codex.
Shield Wall - A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard EXACTLY as if it an an IC.
This with out doubt states a MCIC can join a non MC or Vehicle unit. It give IC to a HT joining them. If ICs can't join Vehicles or MC this would NOT work.
Mythra wrote: The only forbidden joining by the rules is an IC to a MC or Vehicle and we know it can work the other way around b/c we have an example in the Tyranid codex.
Shield Wall - A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard EXACTLY as if it an an IC.
This with out doubt states a MCIC can join a non MC or Vehicle unit. It give IC to a HT joining them. If ICs can't join Vehicles or MC this would NOT work.
Ah, no. Shield wall, a rule that Tyrant Guard have, allow them to be joined.
You cannot attach a Tyrant to Generstealers.
This actually indicates that you need a specific special rule to break the general rule, and isn't a good reference for this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 14:16:48
Mythra wrote: The only forbidden joining by the rules is an IC to a MC or Vehicle and we know it can work the other way around b/c we have an example in the Tyranid codex.
Shield Wall - A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard EXACTLY as if it an an IC.
This with out doubt states a MCIC can join a non MC or Vehicle unit. It give IC to a HT joining them. If ICs can't join Vehicles or MC this would NOT work.
Ah, no. Shield wall, a rule that Tyrant Guard have, allow them to be joined.
You cannot attach a Tyrant to Generstealers.
This actually indicates that you need a specific special rule to break the general rule, and isn't a good reference for this thread.
I don't think Hyve Tyrant can be used as an example of anything in this discussion since it doesn't have the independant character rule.
2014/06/12 15:07:13
Subject: Re:Overlords on CCB's and joining units...
Mythra wrote: The only forbidden joining by the rules is an IC to a MC or Vehicle and we know it can work the other way around b/c we have an example in the Tyranid codex. Shield Wall - A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard EXACTLY as if it an an IC. This with out doubt states a MCIC can join a non MC or Vehicle unit. It give IC to a HT joining them. If ICs can't join Vehicles or MC this would NOT work.
Ah, no. Shield wall, a rule that Tyrant Guard have, allow them to be joined. You cannot attach a Tyrant to Generstealers. This actually indicates that you need a specific special rule to break the general rule, and isn't a good reference for this thread.
Not really. The Tyrant doesnt have the IC rule, so of course you need a special rule to allow it to join a unit - it doesnt have the normal rule. It does however join as if it were an IC to the one unit they WANT you to join it to. It does tell you that IF MCICs could not join a unit then this rule would have no purpose, as the HY explicitly joins the TG unit as if it were an IC. It also shows that the join is indeed one way - the IC joins the unit, not the other way around. (and also gives an excellent example of why Naw was entirely unable to find a rule stating this, just handwaved it away again). YOu also have O'Vesa, who is an MCIC; he can join normal units, again proving the join (and the restrictions, e.g. MC containing units) are one way and one way only
Doesnt help with Vehicles, but given there isnt actually a rule prohibiting vehicles joining units, like there is for ICs joining vehicles, it doesnt actually matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 15:08:24
Nem wrote: The overlords unit type would stay infantry - or he would be would be subject to vehicle rules (Having AV, no armor saves etc). The profile would have to remain infantry to work.
The CCB would remain a vehicle unit. The profile would remain a vehicle.
'Unit type' is not based on the actual unit, it is based on the model.
So... ?
When using them both together, they move etc like a Chariot, but still take their profiles as a separate (not both vehicles, not both infantry and not truly chariot) Changing in this way is quite unprecedented, which is causing (I am guessing) unforeseen problems.
Humor me if you will. What do you consider a Chariot? If all Chariots in 7th ed are Duel Profiles, (Vehicle and non-vehicle.) and this is obsequiously not what you consider to be a Chariot Model. then what do you consider to be a Chariot model?
So then If I am seeing what you are saying correctly, then the Chariot is not one model (Even though we are told it is always one model in the rule set)
So then how do we completely ignore the chariot rule set stating it is one model and treat it exactly as it was in 6th ed?. Where the rider is permitted certain actions while being embarked on in a Dedicated Transport?
If the Chariot suffers an explode result do we roll to wound it's one and only passenger as per the Transports and Explosions results? Does this Passenger make an emergency Disembark move and then roll a pinning check? Or do we remove the entire model?
A Chariot model can be riderless, which means there is no other profile but the chariot, and there are only a few Chariots that have no rider and all of them can be purchased as stand alone models, all of the rest have two profiles. Some of these Chariots are purchased as Squadrons where the rider is an upgrade to the Chariot; Where as other chariots like the CCB and a few of the daemon ones are purchased as upgrades for the Rider.
The CCB cannot be fielded without the Overlord, there is no way to do it under any circumstances.
The CCB is Purchased as an upgrade to an Overlord.
The Overlord is not purchased as an upgrade to the CCB.
Thus I argue that when an Overlord purchases a CCB as an upgrade, the CCB effectively becomes part of the Overlord Model(not the over way around), the model must follow all rules for the Overlord (IC,RP, EL) unless explicitly prohibited from doing so, as well as following all the rules for the Chariot unit type(Page 86 BRB), and all the rules for the CCB. (Sweep Attack, Symbiotic Repair, Fast, Skimmer, Open topped..ect). The AV of the Chariot profile does make for some interesting issues, that can be overcome. This combination of models is no different than a Sm captain taking a Bike upgrade, or a HT upgrading his profile to have wings.
Yes it is new, a Model that has both a vehicle and non-vehicle profile active at all times, where the controlling player can choose what shooting hits are allocated to which profile on the one model. (very new game mechanic)
In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
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