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 Sasori wrote:
You would still get the 3++ in close combat on the chariot.

How does that work? (Say you're in combat with a Chainfist (CF). He passes his MSS and declares he is attacking the chariot, not the rider. How do you extend the Overlord's 3++ to save the CCB?)

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
You would still get the 3++ in close combat on the chariot.

How does that work? (Say you're in combat with a Chainfist (CF). He passes his MSS and declares he is attacking the chariot, not the rider. How do you extend the Overlord's 3++ to save the CCB?)

Phase Shifter explicitely refers to the "model" gaining a 3++ and the CCB, in the new rules, has the Chariot type whose rules state that it is treated as a single model for all purposes.

That's RAW. It's extremely clear that this isn't RAI.

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
You would still get the 3++ in close combat on the chariot.

How does that work? (Say you're in combat with a Chainfist (CF). He passes his MSS and declares he is attacking the chariot, not the rider. How do you extend the Overlord's 3++ to save the CCB?)

Isn't it just roll for invulnerable save if he gets a glancing or penetrating hit? I've been doing that for my Sisters Rhino for a while.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
You would still get the 3++ in close combat on the chariot.

How does that work? (Say you're in combat with a Chainfist (CF). He passes his MSS and declares he is attacking the chariot, not the rider. How do you extend the Overlord's 3++ to save the CCB?)

Phase Shifter explicitely refers to the "model" gaining a 3++ and the CCB, in the new rules, has the Chariot type whose rules state that it is treated as a single model for all purposes.

That's RAW. It's extremely clear that this isn't RAI.

Ohhhh, okay, so it's just GW rule fekkery (the kind of loophole one would usually not exploit if one was playing a friendly game).
Well, here's hoping that much needed FAQ comes along soon.

 skoffs wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
You would still get the 3++ in close combat on the chariot.

How does that work? (Say you're in combat with a Chainfist (CF). He passes his MSS and declares he is attacking the chariot, not the rider. How do you extend the Overlord's 3++ to save the CCB?)

Phase Shifter explicitely refers to the "model" gaining a 3++ and the CCB, in the new rules, has the Chariot type whose rules state that it is treated as a single model for all purposes.

That's RAW. It's extremely clear that this isn't RAI.

Ohhhh, okay, so it's just GW rule fekkery (the kind of loophole one would usually not exploit if one was playing a friendly game).
Well, here's hoping that much needed FAQ comes along soon.

...this or people not being douches

So. If I want to bring it to a tournament next week (I have a royal court heavy, five skimmer, five flyer list with two CCBs with PS on both) should I:

A) bring it and point at the rules and stroke neck beard
B) contact TO to check how he is playing it
C) not bring it, too douchey even for tournaments

¿?

I would go with B) cuz you can always use it in a non-douchey way, and just use the 3++ on the rider.

Always, always, always talk to your TO before attending a tournament.

 skoffs wrote:
^
Interesting. What was your full list?
(and I'm surprised the Scarabs didn't do anything against the bikes. How many were there? I feel like I might be including a Doomscythe in all of my armies from now on just to be able to handle invisible units).

There were 4 bikes (killed one with a anni barge) and like 5 scarab bases left. It was the hitting on 6s and wounding on 5s vs a 3+ save with a feel no pain roll that made the whole thing drag out for three turns. Plus he had a power sword in there that was doing 3 wounds a turn. Had the remaining spider gotten close enough in time I could have fed bases into the fray but he was killed off enroute.

This was the full list although based on the performance of certain units I've decided to dump the spiders in favor of another anni barge, switch over to guass cannons, and squeeze in another overlord to be my warlord and let him ride safely in a flyer. So basically, more shooting and less chance of giving up slay the warlord.

HQ: Overlord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Sempiternal Weave, Resurrection Orb, Phase Shifter, Catacomb Command Barge

Royal Court
1 Harbinger of the Storm
1 Harbinger of the Storm
1 Harbinger of Despair, Nightmare Shroud

Elite: 6x Deathmarks, Night Scythe

Troops: 8x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troops: 7x Warriors, Night Scythe

Fast Attack: 6x Canoptek Wraiths, 2x Whip Coils
Fast Attack: 6x Canoptek Wraiths, 2x Whip Coils
Fast Attack: 7x Canoptek Scarabs

Heavy Support: 2xCanoptek Spyders, Fabricator Claw Array
Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge
Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge

∆
This was using 7th rules, right?
If so, yeah, that's a pretty decent list. There's a little room for optimization, but it's by no means bad.
You wouldn't consider a D.Lord for one of your Wraith units as a possible Warlord candidate?

 skoffs wrote:
∆
This was using 7th rules, right?
If so, yeah, that's a pretty decent list. There's a little room for optimization, but it's by no means bad.
You wouldn't consider a D.Lord for one of your Wraith units as a possible Warlord candidate?

Yeah, I think skoffs is on the right track, but you could certainly run both:

Drop the extra Warriors/Deathmarks (so they are all 5x) buys you 71. From their you can drop the Fab Claw, and 3 Scarabs, and that buys you a Dlord. You might could shave some gear from the one to other at that point. That would a pretty nasty fast hitting front, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I generally don't run more then One Whip Coil per Wraith group, but YMMV on that.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Also, I generally don't run more then One Whip Coil per Wraith group, but YMMV on that.

Hmmm. In my games I've found that running them with less than 3 coils is underwhelming. 3 coils generally means that only half the enemy gets to strike first. If the entire oppo squad gets to go first, don't you lose a couple of wraiths before you get to swing?

Or am I doing something wrong?

Regarding whip coils, 2 for five or 3 for six is usually best.
(it tends to be a waste to put one on each Wraith, as you're bound to lose some before you get into combat).

But back to the CCB,
Assuming everyone's going to be running at least one from now on, with the other HQ slot being taken up by a Destroyer Lord or a second CCB O.Lord, is this the last we'll be seeing of Special Characters?

Far from it.

In a regular list, Zahndrekh still is a good pick that excels when taken with a Warrior blob.

In a CCB list, you want to go Dark Harvest and mount Kulakh on a CCB. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, I really, really like Imo in this edition. I mean, I've run him in every edition, so there's that. But there's a steadyness to the new NF rules that works really well with Jink and other mechanics we have at our disposal. AV 13 rigs with 3+ cover saves even when they are standing right on top of you is quite nice.

Also, Zandy is always a classic.

And, because I'm a sucker for crazy combos, double detachments is going to allow 4 HQs, we'll see some specials out of that.

Imotekh has the same problems as before and NF nerf doesn't do much against it. It is very expensive, but can neither deliver high melee nor ranged damage and is, as usual, only taken for his lightning ability.

It costs slightly less than a Surflord and with the new CCB rules, I don't see it being more worthwhile.

I think that it will depend on the games you are playing (and the points limit). For Maelstrom games at lower points levels (say 1500, maybe 1750) having a SurfLord as your second HQ takes away a lot of flexibility from the rest of the list.

For a Maelstrom game, Zandy is streets ahead as the HQ of choice solely because of the buffs handed to other units, plus the ability to take away hit and run/counter attack. The CCB isn't as strong because it isn't super scoring (which imho would make it totally cheesy).

I think that in Eternal War missions, the CCB is a must take really and a pair of them would be awesome. Sure it is a big investment in points, but for most of the Eternal war missions you don't need that many troop units.

For sure, the CCB is back to 5th ed status.

On a separate note, avoiding S10 attacks is important, particularly in CC. I'm playing an unbound 1500 point game at the moment against a list with 4 soulgrinders, a skull cannon and a chariot. The soulgrinders ID the overlord which kinda sucks, because at the moment he's the only thing that can pen (brought too many wraiths).

Question, when the model dies (whether ID on the overlord or an explosion on the barge) both the Overlord and the Barge come back with 1 wound/HP right?

Imotekh has the same problems as before and NF nerf doesn't do much against it. It is very expensive, but can neither deliver high melee nor ranged damage and is, as usual, only taken for his lightning ability.

Really?

Coming from some one who has played with him through 3 editions now I can tell you the lightning ability is an after thought. It was always the 3 to 4 turns of night fighting, the anchor for a Warrior brick, and the solid Warlord point that you took him for. Now his Night Fighting works even better with the AV 13 skimmers. I promise you you are missing something when appraising him in this edition. 20 Warriors, Imo, Chrono, and a Reslord backed by a couple of AV 13 GAs with 3+ Jinks is complete and total board control. Pepper with ABs/Scarab Farm/NS to taste.

@Shadar,

re Imo, given the lack of ignores cover weaponry the Crons have, have you noticed a reduction in shooting effectiveness in 7th when using Imo? Or do you take pulses to avoid that in your turn?

MarkCron wrote:
@Shadar,

re Imo, given the lack of ignores cover weaponry the Crons have, have you noticed a reduction in shooting effectiveness in 7th when using Imo? Or do you take pulses to avoid that in your turn?

Most of the weaponry I surround him with doesn't care. Gauss Weapons don't care, and obviously when you are carving face in CC you don't care. That's why I've always paired Imo with Flayed Ones, DLords, Wraiths, TPs, Scarab Farm, CCBs, things like that. All of those got better with the new NF rules because they all want to be in the opponents face anyway. Wraiths don't really care, of course, but the rest got better.

That makes sense, thks. It was always weird for me when I saw army lists with stalkers etc (ie heavy shooty lists) and Imo in 6e. Not being able to shoot at all was a huge penalty (btw, for clarification, my dice hate me ).

Now though, the changes to Night fight I think mean that Imo is not necessarily a disaster for a heavy shooty list.

Imotekh straight out loses against Zahndrekh for named characters. Zahndrekh is a much better choice for Warrior units and can buff the entire army along with its situational but potentially very strong reinforcements rule; especially now that you no longer have to place 50% on the table.Granted, though, with less area terrain, it certainly took a hit. I would still take it over Imotekh, though, especially given its very high points cost.

It mostly depends on your list, my Sentry Pylons, for example, would definitely get the shorter end of the stick with NF in place.

It mostly depends on your list, my Sentry Pylons, for example, would definitely get the shorter end of the stick with NF in place.

Yeah, I think that's the biggest driver. If your list contains a lot of AV13 skimmers and close combat units, Imo is fantastic as all those units love the extra layer of protection stealth provides, and for the most part aren't effected by the consequences much.