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Aragorn Marks who now works for Games Workshop as a sculptor had previously done stuff for Maelstrom Games Banelegions range (now Mierce Darklands)

which was very clearly counts-as stuff for fantasy at the time,

so they will hire sculptors who have worked for competitors without worrying about their previous employment

they'll be more interested in talent and whether the sculptor will toe the party line

It would be of benefit to a company when choosing prospective candidates to see works that they have done within the field of work you would like them to do.

The OPs friends should apply for the job and see how they get on.

Assuming that GW have the attention to detail, energy/desire and vindictiveness to hold a list of people they won't employ seems daft in the extreme and more reflects the pettyness of those that would post baseless accusations.

GW like anyone else will hire for talent, if your work is good enough your good enough to hire.*



* serial killers, anyone that knocked up the CEOs daughter, pony people and Furries need not apply.

 prplehippo wrote:
Earlier today I had a discussion over lunch with a few friends that were thinking of applying for studio sculpting positions at GW.

Since I worked there previously they were asking me about some "Blacklist" they had heard of from other GW staff (old staff from the Baltimore HQ).

They were asking me because two of them had previously done freelance work for other "bits" companies like Chapterhouse (and several others) and they got mentioned by name in the various paperwork from the GW vs CHS case.

So we were wondering what their odds were if they were to apply for sculpting positions at GW. Would GW hold a grudge against them and not hire them for "aiding the enemy" so to speak.

I couldn't say for certain, I had little knowledge of how GW UK works, but I do know that in Baltimore several times people weren't hired due to "personal issues" a manager (or one of his cronies) had with them.

It's hard to say, at least for me, but I wouldn't hold sculpting for other companies against them. But I'm a bit more rational and "neutral". People need to make money to pay their bills and put food on the table.

So what do you think? Should they still give it a go?

Interesting comments here by people who seem totally ignorant of how large companies, like GW, work. In fact so ignorant that I wonder how they survive in the evil shark-infested commercial world.

yes, there are doubtless some people at GW who will hold a grudge against Chapterhouse. They will be the middle and upper management.

Your friend will most probably be interviewed by creatives - who almost certainly won't hold a grudge, and will appreciate good work wherever it originates. All your friend has to do is bear those factors in mind; if he discusses the work, say how he'd much rather work for GW than for companies like Chapterhouse etc etc etc.

I've certainly had many creative interviews, on both sides of the desk, where the prospective employee has worked in the past for the enemy. As long as the work is good, and you don't mention that you prefer the enemy company to the one you want to hire you, you'll be fine.

Simply refusing to hire people who have worked for competitors is bad business practice. In most industries the fear is other way road, that their talent will be poached by the competition.

As someone else pointed out earlier the fact that GW recently hired someone from Mantic shows that it's highly unlikely such a blacklist actually exists anyway.

The "creatives" don't approve the hiring. No first level manager does. It's precisely the people that would potentially hold a grudge that would approve any hiring.

Mantic or BaneLegions does not = Chapterhouse in this instance.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Your friend will most probably be interviewed by creatives - who almost certainly won't hold a grudge, and will appreciate good work wherever it originates. All your friend has to do is bear those factors in mind; if he discusses the work, say how he'd much rather work for GW than for companies like Chapterhouse etc etc etc.

Think this is spot on.

Only people I can imagine having a grudge are the likes of Merrett or perhaps some of the upper management, plus jobsworths in lower level management who probably wouldn't get to make that decision anyway.

Proof? People such as Guy Haley (who works between Mantic and GW, and does other stuff), Warwick Kinrade who works for Forgeworld and has his own WW2 wargame, the Perry Brothers who continue to sculpt for GW and their own miniature lines. Andy Chambers as well? There are probably loads more, that's just off the top of my head.

I think there is a collective of creative types in Nottingham that intermingle, and probably don't pay any heed to the childish 'mine is better than yours' arguments between some consumers, and just enjoy what they do for a living. I heard of Ronnie Renton at Mantic being described as 'the most liked man in GW'(?!) by a GW person after he had left the company to found Mantic.

So.. I think if you are good at creating, or that kind of art that will get you noticed (and definitely if you have been within the same 'circle') there probably aren't the artificial divides between GW and everyone else that people might think exist.

Just my thoughts on it in any case!

There probably won't be a physical blacklist, no.That's just stupid. That's like Nixon with the recorder. But if GW is bias and they do find out they worked for a competitor, and decide not to hire your friends, there's no evidence to say they are being prejudice. They can simply say we don't want to hire anyone yet, or we just think someone else is better. That being said, I think they don't have anything to worry about, they probably have the same chance as everyone else. If they're good.

Then again, if Nixon was stupid enough, there's someone out there that is also stupid enough to. Think about that.

They have hired quite a few people who were working for Mantic Games at the time, both freelancers and full-timers.

I think maybe this thread needs a clarification on who GW would be holding a grudge against.

Sculptors or painters? No, I seriously doubt it, GW is all about business and they can certainly understand the business side of working for different groups. It's capitalism, baby.

Third-party bitz providers? I would say most definitely, GW feels like they're infringing on their turf, and that's been shown countless times in the Chapterhouse thread. But of course this is all about the higher-ups in management, and particularly on the side of those whose sole concern is the profitability of the company. I imagine those in the creative or rules side are benign sort of folk, perhaps frustrated with the higher-up's as well. Whose to say.

I don't think GW holds a "grudgec. But i know that when you go to work with them you can no longer work freelance on the side. Unless your the perry bros doing historical.

You also can not be in a on going contract/commistion with a competitor well beinh considered i belive.

You must also do somr test scuplts to show you understand thw GW style.

This is what i have gathered from scuplors on DA who applied.

Also i belive GW proper have been pushing for more CAD scupltors as of late. Alot of their trastional scupltors seem to hang out at FW now?

Skilled people are always valued

If your great, people will want you as talented people can be hard to get.

If they've had a number of bad experiences with a company or individuals then more than likely, yes they will not be wanting to do business with them. Certainly happens a lot in construction industry.

But that's not holding a grudge, that's just common sense.

Also speaking as a construction industry professional I go to great lengths to appoint quality companies and disseminate reports of poor performance across the business prevent unsuitable ones being employed.

 Pacific wrote:


Proof? People such as Guy Haley (who works between Mantic and GW, and does other stuff), Warwick Kinrade who works for Forgeworld and has his own WW2 wargame, the Perry Brothers who continue to sculpt for GW and their own miniature lines. Andy Chambers as well? There are probably loads more, that's just off the top of my head.

Dont want to scupper your 'proof' but Warwick left GW three years ago... and I dont think Andy has worked there for a while.

I'm still encouraging them to apply.

From what I've been able to gather from other sculptors I know GW's hiring practices have gotten very "stringent" and have frustrated a few other friends I knew that applied and stopped them from pursuing it further.

They just gave up, not because they weren't good enough, it's just that GW had them "strung along" for too long and they felt it just wasn't worth it.

Again, like someone already said, the worst GW is going to do is not give them an interview, or after the interview, not hire them. Like any other job.

If they don't apply, they won't have a chance at all.

Applying loses you nothing. Not applying gains you nothing.

If such a blacklist do excist it hardly fulfill any purpouse for GW if people don't know about it. Instead of discuraging people to work for bitz companies, they would only be limiting their pool of sculptors they can hire.

Why would such a blacklist be illegal btw? (Regardless of what one may feel is moraly correct. Anti-discrimination laws don't apply and gw is hardly big enough for competition laws to come into effect.

 Pacific wrote:


Proof? People such as Guy Haley (who works between Mantic and GW, and does other stuff), Warwick Kinrade who works for Forgeworld and has his own WW2 wargame, the Perry Brothers who continue to sculpt for GW and their own miniature lines. Andy Chambers as well? There are probably loads more, that's just off the top of my head.

Andy Hoare is currently doing stuff for Forge World as well as working with Vic Minis.

Vic's stuff is pretty clearly not-Imperial Guard (Astra Militarium), right down to the ARcadians, who look a hell of a lot like the original metal Cadians.

Warlord Games are currently looking for Sculptors, where you'll get a better working environment as well as a less exploitational application process.

If they worked for the enemy and now want to work for you they will no longer work for the enemy.

Herzlos wrote:
Warlord Games are currently looking for Sculptors, where you'll get a better working environment as well as a less exploitational application process.

I did point them to Warlord and few other companies which would be fine for freelance work but they are looking more for a "full-time" job rather than random work. From what I've been told freelance work is fine for making some "extra cash" but it's not enough to live off.

As far as I know Warlord isn't big enough to hire and move people from overseas, GW is and has hired staff from the USA many times to work in Lenton.

 n0t_u wrote:
If they worked for the enemy and now want to work for you they will no longer work for the enemy.

The enemy of my enemy is my ally?

Big P wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


Proof? People such as Guy Haley (who works between Mantic and GW, and does other stuff), Warwick Kinrade who works for Forgeworld and has his own WW2 wargame, the Perry Brothers who continue to sculpt for GW and their own miniature lines. Andy Chambers as well? There are probably loads more, that's just off the top of my head.

Dont want to scupper your 'proof' but Warwick left GW three years ago... and I dont think Andy has worked there for a while.

Ah, I was under the impression that Warwick still did work for Forgeworld with the IA books - I've now learnt something!

Andy has been writing books for Black Library, which counts on one level.

Nah... Woz has his own company now - Ironfistpublishing.com

 prplehippo wrote:


The enemy of my enemy is my ally?

No, the enemy of my enemy is just a convenience of war.

Yes, they're a very spiteful company. It's why everything is being changed to latin gobbilygook except for Space Marines.

It is fair to say that the upper management of GW has many spiteful, grudge bearing people.

It is also very likely true that those people won't be the ones making the decision in regards to your friends' applications.

If nothing else, having worked for GW will look good on their jackets. Even if they are fired a year later then having that experience may well help tilt the playing field in their favor next time around when they are looking to work for somebody else.

So, go for it.

The worst that can happen is nothing - a result that is guaranteed if they do not apply.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Spelling? Who cares about spelling? (Well, I do....)

Lets have it said, almost every organisation holds a grudge.

Its because they are full of people, and they tend to hold grudges as well.

 prplehippo wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Warlord Games are currently looking for Sculptors, where you'll get a better working environment as well as a less exploitational application process.

I did point them to Warlord and few other companies which would be fine for freelance work but they are looking more for a "full-time" job rather than random work. From what I've been told freelance work is fine for making some "extra cash" but it's not enough to live off.

As far as I know Warlord isn't big enough to hire and move people from overseas, GW is and has hired staff from the USA many times to work in Lenton.

I doubt they'd pay for them to move to Nottingham, but they do say they will consider a full-time position:

Initially we are looking for freelance sculptors but for the right person a full time position would also be considered.

Link:

http://www.warlordgames.com/jobs-sculptors-wanted/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c9ba3df781-Newsletter_11_June_20146_10_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-c9ba3df781-132675889&mc_cid=c9ba3df781&mc_eid=146963ecb7

GW definatly holds grudges. Ask anyone who has opened their own shop after getting fired by GW. They will NEVER get a trade account. I know several individuals who have tried and always end up being denied an account.

Zywus wrote:
If such a blacklist do excist it hardly fulfill any purpouse for GW if people don't know about it. Instead of discuraging people to work for bitz companies, they would only be limiting their pool of sculptors they can hire.

Why would such a blacklist be illegal btw? (Regardless of what one may feel is moraly correct. Anti-discrimination laws don't apply and gw is hardly big enough for competition laws to come into effect.

Not sure where to start on this one. Have you honestly never heard of a blacklist? The most famous one in Britain related to the construction industry in (80's 90's?) which the main companies kept a list of people and or contractors who were considered less than desirable employees. There were no reasons on this list, and all the main companies simply refused to employ anyone on it. They were all taken to court and lost big time.

A modern parallel would be the Apple/Google(?) case in which the companies had a tactic agreement on each others employees, and look at where that got them. Last time I looked it was 10s of millions of $ in damages.

Have you really never heard of a blacklist?

Cheers

Andrew