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gotta go with the exorcist they have no souls and great psychic ability

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

NO PSYKERS!
The Blood God finds this thread offensive.
But back on the subject... Grey Knights, by far.

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

I never said that the Thousand Sons weren't powerful psykers, just that the Grey Knights are better psykers. They are the top two by far but the Grey Knights do psychic abilities better. The Thousand Sons were powerful psykers especially for their time knowing more about the warp more than anyone just not seeing the danger in it. They were warned on occasion like the Rune Priest Othere Wyrdmake warning Ahriman to watch what he did in the warp and that there were entities there that would cause them harm. Ahriman dismissed the notion wanting the free flow of knowledge and ability.

Khonsu wrote:
A Thousand Sons coven protected an entire capital city from being bombarded by an entire Heresy Era Legion fleet for a time.
I think that pretty much trumps everything.

For a time. And did anyone stand back up afterwards? Say what you want, immortality (outside of Daemonhood and Perpetuality) is something only 1 psyker has ever achieved- a Grey Knight named Anval Thawn.

 Deadshot wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
A Thousand Sons coven protected an entire capital city from being bombarded by an entire Heresy Era Legion fleet for a time.
I think that pretty much trumps everything.

For a time. And did anyone stand back up afterwards? Say what you want, immortality (outside of Daemonhood and Perpetuality) is something only 1 psyker has ever achieved- a Grey Knight named Anval Thawn.

Thawn is a perpetual though.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
A Thousand Sons coven protected an entire capital city from being bombarded by an entire Heresy Era Legion fleet for a time.
I think that pretty much trumps everything.

For a time. And did anyone stand back up afterwards? Say what you want, immortality (outside of Daemonhood and Perpetuality) is something only 1 psyker has ever achieved- a Grey Knight named Anval Thawn.

Thawn is a perpetual though.

State your evidence. AFAIK, Thawn is only mentioned in the GK 5th Ed Codex, long before Perpetuality is fleshed out. There is no mention of him being a Perpetual. There is some evidence, yes, but not proven fact, making Perpetuality but a theory. There is also evidence that it is due to psychic might, given the entry in the Codex, and from a game rules POV, he's mastery level (psychic prowess) is on par with the likes of Draigo, Stern, Epistolaries of most Chapters, Ezekiel, Njal, Typhus (who gets a boost to his innate ability due to embracing Chaos).

 Deadshot wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
A Thousand Sons coven protected an entire capital city from being bombarded by an entire Heresy Era Legion fleet for a time.
I think that pretty much trumps everything.

For a time. And did anyone stand back up afterwards? Say what you want, immortality (outside of Daemonhood and Perpetuality) is something only 1 psyker has ever achieved- a Grey Knight named Anval Thawn.

Thawn is a perpetual though.

State your evidence. AFAIK, Thawn is only mentioned in the GK 5th Ed Codex, long before Perpetuality is fleshed out. There is no mention of him being a Perpetual. There is some evidence, yes, but not proven fact, making Perpetuality but a theory. There is also evidence that it is due to psychic might, given the entry in the Codex, and from a game rules POV, he's mastery level (psychic prowess) is on par with the likes of Draigo, Stern, Epistolaries of most Chapters, Ezekiel, Njal, Typhus (who gets a boost to his innate ability due to embracing Chaos).

It was a Black Lbrary short story, can't remember the name but I'll see if I can dig it up for you. Both the Inquisition and the Eldar believe he is one of the last perpetuals.

EDIT: I think it is The Ghost Halls, http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-ghost-halls-ebook.html but I'm not positive. I'm at work right now and can't actually check.

 Deadshot wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
A Thousand Sons coven protected an entire capital city from being bombarded by an entire Heresy Era Legion fleet for a time.
I think that pretty much trumps everything.

For a time. And did anyone stand back up afterwards? Say what you want, immortality (outside of Daemonhood and Perpetuality) is something only 1 psyker has ever achieved- a Grey Knight named Anval Thawn.

Sufficient of them stood back up that it took a full combined strike force of Space Wolves and Sisters of Silence with Custodian support to take them down despite being horrifically outnumbered, yes.

By stand back up, I mean revival.

Now that I am home and have read through it again, it is indeed The Ghost Halls short story that has your evidence Deadshot. Anval Thawn is a perpetual.

 Orblivion wrote:
Now that I am home and have read through it again, it is indeed The Ghost Halls short story that has your evidence Deadshot. Anval Thawn is a perpetual.

Can you quote please? Not that I don't believe you but I am curious.

Kind of an odd story, the Grey Knights are returning some spirit stones to the Eldar and this conversation takes place.

‘So shall it be. This warrior shall be noted in the annals of my people.’
Pelenas replaced his helm with a snap-hiss of pressurisation, and made to leave with his battle-brothers. ‘Then always remember the name of Anval Thawn.’
The eldar’s eyes widened, almost imperceptibly, and he faltered for a moment before glancing at his fellow seers. Pelenas caught a flicker of alarm in the creature’s aura, before it was swallowed once more in a careful projection of calm indifference, and his alien features broke in a forced simulacrum of a smile.
‘So shall it be.’
The spiritseer’s haste was evident. Returned to his own craftworld and with the waystones of Malan’tai restored to the infinity circuit, he now made for the farseer enclave.
He alone had been made emissary for the council. The message that he bore was simple, but filled with grave import. They would need to know.
‘The mon-keigh have rediscovered the last Perpetual – Anval Thawn has ascended to the ranks of the Grey Knights. I await your guidance.’

Nice find. What book did you say that is? It seems to be detailing the aftermath of the Grey Knight investigation into the destruction of Craftworld Malan'tai, following Thawn's first death at the hands of N'kari. Is that correct?

 Deadshot wrote:
By stand back up, I mean revival.

Coming back to life isn't proof of his psychic prowess in the slightest. Otherwise, Yarrick and Ephrael Stern, who are not psykers, could never have pulled it off. Let alone four times in Stern's case.

 Deadshot wrote:
By stand back up, I mean revival.

But being a perpetual, that's not really a psyker though. That just means he has some odd genetics that make him loop back to life. Add to that, if reviving is what we want, there is fluff mentioning KSons being revived from ded by necromancy returning to flesh or metal as has it as well as eternal revivals. Kharn himself, not even Tzeentch, has died multiple times only to return from the grave again and again.

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

I never said that the Thousand Sons weren't powerful psykers, just that the Grey Knights are better psykers. They are the top two by far but the Grey Knights do psychic abilities better. The Thousand Sons were powerful psykers especially for their time knowing more about the warp more than anyone just not seeing the danger in it. They were warned on occasion like the Rune Priest Othere Wyrdmake warning Ahriman to watch what he did in the warp and that there were entities there that would cause them harm. Ahriman dismissed the notion wanting the free flow of knowledge and ability.

I'd still say Thousand Sons are the better psykers. The charm of GK isn't as themselves. In fact, many aren't all that exceptional. What they form is a brotherhood of psykers that kind of psychic choir each other up. Even then, including their primary psykers, they are only good for one reason. They have honed their talents to one job, fighting daemons. That's their job. Their armour is made for it, their weapons are built for it, and their spells are made to combat such creatures. They are specialized in a way it seems they are mighty and it is enhanced by each one individual being superior to a standard marine but that is all. Thousand Sons were founders, psykers of high level. The Rune Priest warning Ahriman is flawed in many ways but also holds truth. Yet at the same time it holds no real note of how this points to them being bad psykers. Unrestrained? Arrogant believing they knew how to play with fire without being burnt? Most certainly. But they were great at it. Terribly so. There has been no spell GK have done comparable to the feats of Ahriman or even the coven (before their full fall to Chaos might I add) defending orbital bombardments and proceeding to put up a fight even though the odds stacked up against them against custodes, SW, and Sisters of Silence. The GK win with having more psykers as each one is (whilst if BA were, it was insignificant at best in many and likely was only a high proportion) but pound for pound Tzeentchian sorcerers win it out for being the best psykers only having grown stronger from their fall to chaos and the rubrication. It also helps that in the old days they were capable of auto-passing their spells

StarTrotter wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
By stand back up, I mean revival.

But being a perpetual, that's not really a psyker though. That just means he has some odd genetics that make him loop back to life. Add to that, if reviving is what we want, there is fluff mentioning KSons being revived from ded by necromancy returning to flesh or metal as has it as well as eternal revivals. Kharn himself, not even Tzeentch, has died multiple times only to return from the grave again and again.

Up until I saw that evidence, I didn't believe he was a Perpetual. Now I do. Case closes.
Rubric Marines and being revived by a Necromancer isn't the same as reviving yourself.
Kharn is a hardy SOB and has the divine protection of Khorne. Even says it plain in the codex. Ever since he was found on a pile of corpses, refusing to die, Khorne has Blessed him.

Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
By stand back up, I mean revival.

Coming back to life isn't proof of his psychic prowess in the slightest. Otherwise, Yarrick and Ephrael Stern, who are not psykers, could never have pulled it off. Let alone four times in Stern's case.

Yarrick is kept alive because the Orks believe him to be that tough, the only one who big Ghazzy judges a worthy foe.

Never heard of Stern.

Stern is a SoB. Also it's not quite that. Yarrick lived against Orks even when he wasn't a big thing. He's gritty and stubborn and doesn't give up.

As per reviving yourself, it really doesn't mean anything based upon the question. Is he a perpetual? Yes. Is this being a psyker or even best psyker? Not by any means.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

I never said that the Thousand Sons weren't powerful psykers, just that the Grey Knights are better psykers. They are the top two by far but the Grey Knights do psychic abilities better. The Thousand Sons were powerful psykers especially for their time knowing more about the warp more than anyone just not seeing the danger in it. They were warned on occasion like the Rune Priest Othere Wyrdmake warning Ahriman to watch what he did in the warp and that there were entities there that would cause them harm. Ahriman dismissed the notion wanting the free flow of knowledge and ability.

I'd still say Thousand Sons are the better psykers. The charm of GK isn't as themselves. In fact, many aren't all that exceptional. What they form is a brotherhood of psykers that kind of psychic choir each other up. Even then, including their primary psykers, they are only good for one reason. They have honed their talents to one job, fighting daemons. That's their job. Their armour is made for it, their weapons are built for it, and their spells are made to combat such creatures. They are specialized in a way it seems they are mighty and it is enhanced by each one individual being superior to a standard marine but that is all. Thousand Sons were founders, psykers of high level. The Rune Priest warning Ahriman is flawed in many ways but also holds truth. Yet at the same time it holds no real note of how this points to them being bad psykers. Unrestrained? Arrogant believing they knew how to play with fire without being burnt? Most certainly. But they were great at it. Terribly so. There has been no spell GK have done comparable to the feats of Ahriman or even the coven (before their full fall to Chaos might I add) defending orbital bombardments and proceeding to put up a fight even though the odds stacked up against them against custodes, SW, and Sisters of Silence. The GK win with having more psykers as each one is (whilst if BA were, it was insignificant at best in many and likely was only a high proportion) but pound for pound Tzeentchian sorcerers win it out for being the best psykers only having grown stronger from their fall to chaos and the rubrication. It also helps that in the old days they were capable of auto-passing their spells

To me unrestrained power isn't as powerful as disciplined will of the GKs and at this point, our differing opinions, we probably won't come to an agreement but I have to point out, what Draigo is doing in the warp is pretty power. To create what essentially is a psychic bubble around himself to keep himself from being corrupted and just having a hayday in the warp without succumbing to it's energies is pretty powerful. Maybe not Ahriman powerful but it is fething close in my eyes. So how does one truly define power and mastery over psychic abilities? Through will and discipline to manifest powers while creating a shield to preserve your soul or by being able to leave utter destruction with the wave of your hand. To me, it's the latter, to you its the former. It's the debate Star Wars nerds have been having about Jedi vs. Sith for the longest time and it doesn't surprise me that it would happen here.

Draigo might not be doing such a thing, however. Draigo might be sitting in one place within the Warp while his mind has broken under the strain and he's just looping through this insanity-induced visions, accomplishing nothing at all.

Then how is he broken of this insanity when he enters back into real-space in order fight along side his battle brothers again?

Who says that he is broken of it?

Draigo thinks he spends his entire time fighting daemons. He pops up the real world and still thinks he's spending his entire time fighting daemons.

Anyway, I still want to know why people think the Thousand Sons, who designed the entire system of organisation and meditations by which the Imperium manifests its psychic powers were "undisciplined".

 Envihon wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

I never said that the Thousand Sons weren't powerful psykers, just that the Grey Knights are better psykers. They are the top two by far but the Grey Knights do psychic abilities better. The Thousand Sons were powerful psykers especially for their time knowing more about the warp more than anyone just not seeing the danger in it. They were warned on occasion like the Rune Priest Othere Wyrdmake warning Ahriman to watch what he did in the warp and that there were entities there that would cause them harm. Ahriman dismissed the notion wanting the free flow of knowledge and ability.

I'd still say Thousand Sons are the better psykers. The charm of GK isn't as themselves. In fact, many aren't all that exceptional. What they form is a brotherhood of psykers that kind of psychic choir each other up. Even then, including their primary psykers, they are only good for one reason. They have honed their talents to one job, fighting daemons. That's their job. Their armour is made for it, their weapons are built for it, and their spells are made to combat such creatures. They are specialized in a way it seems they are mighty and it is enhanced by each one individual being superior to a standard marine but that is all. Thousand Sons were founders, psykers of high level. The Rune Priest warning Ahriman is flawed in many ways but also holds truth. Yet at the same time it holds no real note of how this points to them being bad psykers. Unrestrained? Arrogant believing they knew how to play with fire without being burnt? Most certainly. But they were great at it. Terribly so. There has been no spell GK have done comparable to the feats of Ahriman or even the coven (before their full fall to Chaos might I add) defending orbital bombardments and proceeding to put up a fight even though the odds stacked up against them against custodes, SW, and Sisters of Silence. The GK win with having more psykers as each one is (whilst if BA were, it was insignificant at best in many and likely was only a high proportion) but pound for pound Tzeentchian sorcerers win it out for being the best psykers only having grown stronger from their fall to chaos and the rubrication. It also helps that in the old days they were capable of auto-passing their spells

To me unrestrained power isn't as powerful as disciplined will of the GKs and at this point, our differing opinions, we probably won't come to an agreement but I have to point out, what Draigo is doing in the warp is pretty power. To create what essentially is a psychic bubble around himself to keep himself from being corrupted and just having a hayday in the warp without succumbing to it's energies is pretty powerful. Maybe not Ahriman powerful but it is fething close in my eyes. So how does one truly define power and mastery over psychic abilities? Through will and discipline to manifest powers while creating a shield to preserve your soul or by being able to leave utter destruction with the wave of your hand. To me, it's the latter, to you its the former. It's the debate Star Wars nerds have been having about Jedi vs. Sith for the longest time and it doesn't surprise me that it would happen here.

Eh, I'd say that the power of Sorcerers is pretty mighty Even they have to know their limitations after all. As per Draigo, frankly he's just pure bad fluff in every single way. He was a bad idea with bad fluff with bad rules. There's no real positive to him. Besides that, he's just one individual. Need I remind you Ahriman is double his mastery level for that matter and has summoned some awe inspiring things. Or, better yet, I could even use the primarch, Magnus himself for such an argument. Ahriman is vastly superior to Draigo in psychic will. In Draigo's one specialty, spells against Daemons, he likely wins but the potency of Ahriman's magic and diversity wins out. As per jedi vs. sith, frankly I think the argument is flawed as for two parts. One, the two are really equal. Two, it is a flawed argument comparing a army of psykers built specifically to fight daemons to the founders of the psychic institution of the Imperium that held order, discipline and experience with drastic order only throwing away many of their restrictions when fallen to chaos. Yet even then they walk a fine line. Tzeentch is very fickle and constantly scheming and the daemons they would make bargains with are quite deceptive yet they have managed to pass through the times with a combination of wit and psyker might.

Finally, even for all their might, GK are not entire free from the taints of chaos. One has been implanted with the seed of doubt. Besides that, they are not free from the mutating taint of the warp having needed pure sister blood to resist the warping affect of chaos even with their aegis, armour, weapons, and psyker power of a brotherhood all concentrated into one unit to combat the threat.

 Envihon wrote:
Then how is he broken of this insanity when he enters back into real-space in order fight along side his battle brothers again?

Because he's fething loopy, and is like a 'Nam vet going into flashbacks on the 4th of July when the fireworks start going off, and just lays waste into anything and everything around him. What he *thinks* he's fighting may not actually be what he *is* fighting.

Is anyone else bothered by the logic that the emperor would let Malcador make another pskyer legion after the thousand sons debacle? I find the grey knights to be kinda silly.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
@Envihon: The most basic element of how you are comparing the Grey Knights to the Thousand Sons is incredibly flawed. Your argument is that because the Grey Knights are resistant to Chaos that they are the more powerful psykers. The Grey Knights are designed specifically to combat Chaos, all of their psychic talents are honed for this purpose, all of their equipment is designed for this purpose. So how do you justify using the purpose of their entire existence as the scale with which you compare them to other psykers? It's a poor method of comparison, simply put.

The Grey Knights manifest psychic powers with as much potency as any of the Thousand Sons but at the same time keep their minds disciplined enough to shield from Chaos, a feat the Thousand Sons could not do. One of the principle ways to be corrupted is through the manifestations of psychic powers and an unguarded mind just begs to be corrupted and possessed so oh, you created that giant fireball with your mind, cool, well, you also left your mind to be exposed to be taken over so good job because you just lost your free will to give it to a daemon. The Grey Knights do this same effect except they never open up their minds to Chaos so to manifest the psychic power plus keep your mind totally shielded at the same time is an incredible feat of sheer will that most psykers can not perform at the caliber of the Grey Knights so no, it isn't a faulty comparison.

Again, the Grey Knights were created to combat that exact situation. Their armour defends them, their psychic discipline was tailor made for fighting Chaos, the entirety of their training is dedicated to the defeat of Chaos. They have an incredible wealth of knowledge pertaining to Chaos that the Thousand Sons did not have, the Thousand Sons didn't even know of the existence of Chaos thanks to the Emperor. It wasn't that the Thousand Sons couldn't shield themselves from Chaos, just that they didn't. Primarily because they had no knowledge of what Chaos was. In the end they joined Chaos willingly, following their primarch and believing that they had been betrayed by the Emperor. Your assumption that they weren't powerful psykers because they fell to Chaos is way off base.

Your comparison is like asking the best athletes in the world to play a sport they've never played before, without any of the specialized equipment. And then coming to the conclusion that because they did poorly, the dedicated athletes of the specific sport MUST be the better overall athletes. There is just a huge jump in your logic.

I never said that the Thousand Sons weren't powerful psykers, just that the Grey Knights are better psykers. They are the top two by far but the Grey Knights do psychic abilities better. The Thousand Sons were powerful psykers especially for their time knowing more about the warp more than anyone just not seeing the danger in it. They were warned on occasion like the Rune Priest Othere Wyrdmake warning Ahriman to watch what he did in the warp and that there were entities there that would cause them harm. Ahriman dismissed the notion wanting the free flow of knowledge and ability.

I'd still say Thousand Sons are the better psykers. The charm of GK isn't as themselves. In fact, many aren't all that exceptional. What they form is a brotherhood of psykers that kind of psychic choir each other up. Even then, including their primary psykers, they are only good for one reason. They have honed their talents to one job, fighting daemons. That's their job. Their armour is made for it, their weapons are built for it, and their spells are made to combat such creatures. They are specialized in a way it seems they are mighty and it is enhanced by each one individual being superior to a standard marine but that is all. Thousand Sons were founders, psykers of high level. The Rune Priest warning Ahriman is flawed in many ways but also holds truth. Yet at the same time it holds no real note of how this points to them being bad psykers. Unrestrained? Arrogant believing they knew how to play with fire without being burnt? Most certainly. But they were great at it. Terribly so. There has been no spell GK have done comparable to the feats of Ahriman or even the coven (before their full fall to Chaos might I add) defending orbital bombardments and proceeding to put up a fight even though the odds stacked up against them against custodes, SW, and Sisters of Silence. The GK win with having more psykers as each one is (whilst if BA were, it was insignificant at best in many and likely was only a high proportion) but pound for pound Tzeentchian sorcerers win it out for being the best psykers only having grown stronger from their fall to chaos and the rubrication. It also helps that in the old days they were capable of auto-passing their spells

To me unrestrained power isn't as powerful as disciplined will of the GKs and at this point, our differing opinions, we probably won't come to an agreement but I have to point out, what Draigo is doing in the warp is pretty power. To create what essentially is a psychic bubble around himself to keep himself from being corrupted and just having a hayday in the warp without succumbing to it's energies is pretty powerful. Maybe not Ahriman powerful but it is fething close in my eyes. So how does one truly define power and mastery over psychic abilities? Through will and discipline to manifest powers while creating a shield to preserve your soul or by being able to leave utter destruction with the wave of your hand. To me, it's the latter, to you its the former. It's the debate Star Wars nerds have been having about Jedi vs. Sith for the longest time and it doesn't surprise me that it would happen here.

Eh, I'd say that the power of Sorcerers is pretty mighty Even they have to know their limitations after all. As per Draigo, frankly he's just pure bad fluff in every single way. He was a bad idea with bad fluff with bad rules. There's no real positive to him. Besides that, he's just one individual. Need I remind you Ahriman is double his mastery level for that matter and has summoned some awe inspiring things. Or, better yet, I could even use the primarch, Magnus himself for such an argument. Ahriman is vastly superior to Draigo in psychic will. In Draigo's one specialty, spells against Daemons, he likely wins but the potency of Ahriman's magic and diversity wins out. As per jedi vs. sith, frankly I think the argument is flawed as for two parts. One, the two are really equal. Two, it is a flawed argument comparing a army of psykers built specifically to fight daemons to the founders of the psychic institution of the Imperium that held order, discipline and experience with drastic order only throwing away many of their restrictions when fallen to chaos. Yet even then they walk a fine line. Tzeentch is very fickle and constantly scheming and the daemons they would make bargains with are quite deceptive yet they have managed to pass through the times with a combination of wit and psyker might.

Finally, even for all their might, GK are not entire free from the taints of chaos. One has been implanted with the seed of doubt. Besides that, they are not free from the mutating taint of the warp having needed pure sister blood to resist the warping affect of chaos even with their aegis, armour, weapons, and psyker power of a brotherhood all concentrated into one unit to combat the threat.

The character of Draigo got better with the release of Mortarion's Heart where they humanize him a great deal instead of that mary sue gak that Ward threw up in the GK codex.

If you talk of Alaric, he was about to but his iron resolve returned just in time. He still never fell and still holds his faith. I actually see it that he is a Grey Knight that understands his faith even more now that it happened to him. It is the same effect that the Illuminati have with understanding Chaos after fighting off possession and thus be immune to Chaos. Although not the same, I think both have a similar effect in strengthening it. It does point out that how do you boast about never falling to Chaos without creating a bunch of Mary Sues? ADB did a wonderful job in The Emperor's Gift though.

And we weren't exactly talking about mutations because the psyker gene itself is a mutation. No lifeform is resistant to mutation with the pariahs even able to be affected by it.

I don't quite think we will ever agree to this especially with a look at your forum title as an aspiring Tzeentch Sorcerer. It comes down to what one admires really, how one gets things done and which tactics you prefer. I still think the powers of the Grey Knights have the power to foil even to go toe to toe with some Tzeentch sorcerers. Although, Tzeentch is still my favorite Chaos god because I just love psykers...and I don't like Nurgle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dessorag wrote:
Is anyone else bothered by the logic that the emperor would let Malcador make another pskyer legion after the thousand sons debacle? I find the grey knights to be kinda silly.

No, because the GKs are infused with a gene-seed that came directly from the Emperor himself. They are also brainwashed and are taught to use their psychic powers inward to create a power that is the antithesis of Chaos. Not only that but they know what they are fighting and have full knowledge of Chaos itself. They are one of the only ones with full access to everything the Imperium knows about Chaos which is why their Chapter symbol is a sword through a book, they use this knowledge to make it into a weapon to defeat Chaos.

The Emperor kept the entire Imperium in the dark about Chaos because he thought it would protect us from them since it is our thoughts that give them power. If people are ignorant of it, then they can't give it power. The Thousand Sons didn't know what Chaos was, only that they could use their minds to do amazing things. They were never taught the restraint the GKs are taught from day one and thus opened the door. It isn't their fault and I am sure Magnus would of listened had the Emperor told him of Chaos. It is one of the biggest mistakes of the Emperor despite his wisdom and Magnus and his Legion was the one to pay the price for it.

@Enviho
Apologies but I'm thinking we were getting too long.

Curses! You saw right through my image of a glorious knight to see where my true dedications lie! Ha ha ha, I'll admit I have a dislike for nurgle. I try to avoid using it at all costs

You intrigue me with Mortarion's Heart in all honestly. However, I simply can't push myself to read it in part because of Mortarion's fall sounds extremely pathetic unless they added at least 50 GK working alongside in unison along with these iconic heroes. That and Draigo still has his running through the warp that makes even less sense than the warp.

Can't remember the name at the moment but it's a part of the Changeling's lore. His biggest victory is putting a seed of doubt in a GK. Whether he will fall or not is, as of now, undecided (I guess you can say never since they'll never progress the plot though )

Anyways, yeah, I don't think we are ever going to meet eye to eye. My personal belief is that GK, although not as strong individually as psykers in comparison to KSons, make up for it in a combination of superior physical might in conjunction with combining their powers into a brotherhood and honing their skills against specifically daemons almost to a fault If I wanted a daemon banished, I'd go for GK. If I wanted anything else done with magic, eh tough one. I'd consider the Sorcerer KSon being a better spell caster but I'd also have to remember that they'll likely backstab me. At the same time GK will ensure my death or, if lucky, only a mind wipe.

Yeah, in Mortarion's Heart, Draigo gets pounded into the ground...quite literally and only wins because he new Mortarion's true name. He also was reluctant to take Grand Master. It kind of re-writes the codex a tiny bit.

I am pretty sure it was Alaric and as far as I know, he still hasn't fallen.

Honestly, Tzeentch is my favorite Chaos god and the Thousand Sons my favorite Chaos legion but they were not a psychic force done right so I went with the Grey Knights. Although, with Ahriman's changes, I have considered maybe going back to that idea but I have too many Imperial Forces and I really want an Imperial Knight.

At least we came together with our hatred of Nurgle. The only thing I like about him is his units ability to be tough as freaking nails and hard to kill, but your units look positively disgusting. Nothing a bit of sorcery couldn't take care of and I am sure Lord of Change would highly favor that since he also hates Nurgle.