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 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Personally my main issue is not the outright "you're not allowed to like GW blah blah blah, GW sucks ass" thing that others are saying on this thread

That's a good thing, having an issue with something that doesn't exist would be peculiar.

 azreal13 wrote:
Blimey Lobomalo, you're so green you're still squeaking.

Your attitude isn't unusual for someone new to playing the game, everything is new and shiny, and that weighs heavily on the scales against the cynicism for those who have seen a few edition cycles.

If I could offer a word of caution, your posting style is coming off as fiercely patronising, it might be worth taking a moment and remembering you're not addressing your students, but a mix of people who will vary from younger kids to those who surpass you in experience, both in game terms and life in general, and try to use that to mitigate your tone a little.

You might find it helps people hear what you are saying if they're not getting riled by the way you're expressing it.

Sorry, this made me laugh again. You're under the assumption that this experience you have grants you more knowledge than me. It doesn't. You just have more exposure to a product, it has no bearing on your overall knowledge of the product. Remember children, experience =/= knowledge.

As for me being patronizing, I get that way when people try and step on that high horse as they have been since I joined these forums.

Just think of me as the guy who shoots that horse in the knee cap whenever you try an climb atop it in an argument and we'll be golden. Not to mention, I doubt they would hear anything I had to say unless it was just as sniveling as what they are crying about. It's okay though, I've gotten all I need from this topic and am satisfied that this really is nothing but a whine fest, nobody is posting anything constructive, so I'm going to go play the game and you know, enjoy it as it is because it is very fun to play indeed.

Have a nice day!

You're under the assumption I was including myself in that statement.

Oh well, I tried.

You're obviously convinced of your own superiority, I'm a bit of an armchair psychologist, I'm slightly concerned that someone who self identifies as an animal abuser, even in a half arsed metaphor, apparently has prolonged access to people's children.

Just sayin.

You have a wonderful day too!

I understand what GW has to put up with.

But in the end it is GW that make the decisions, some are good but some are just dumb.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Blimey Lobomalo, you're so green you're still squeaking.

Your attitude isn't unusual for someone new to playing the game, everything is new and shiny, and that weighs heavily on the scales against the cynicism for those who have seen a few edition cycles.

If I could offer a word of caution, your posting style is coming off as fiercely patronising, it might be worth taking a moment and remembering you're not addressing your students, but a mix of people who will vary from younger kids to those who surpass you in experience, both in game terms and life in general, and try to use that to mitigate your tone a little.

You might find it helps people hear what you are saying if they're not getting riled by the way you're expressing it.

Sorry, this made me laugh again. You're under the assumption that this experience you have grants you more knowledge than me. It doesn't. You just have more exposure to a product, it has no bearing on your overall knowledge of the product. Remember children, experience =/= knowledge.

As for me being patronizing, I get that way when people try and step on that high horse as they have been since I joined these forums.

Just think of me as the guy who shoots that horse in the knee cap whenever you try an climb atop it in an argument and we'll be golden. Not to mention, I doubt they would hear anything I had to say unless it was just as sniveling as what they are crying about. It's okay though, I've gotten all I need from this topic and am satisfied that this really is nothing but a whine fest, nobody is posting anything constructive, so I'm going to go play the game and you know, enjoy it as it is because it is very fun to play indeed.

Have a nice day!

Experience consists of knowledge of or skill of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience

But yeah, you've been pretty patronizing when it comes down to it, considering you've climbed onto your own high horse and ignore everything else.

All of the common arguments aside my biggest issue with 7th that is killing it for me is the open rules. I travel a lot for work. When I know where I am going to look for a FLGS, see what their popular games are and bring an army of some game accordingly.

Now after I find a place to play I have to call the FLGS and ask what house rules their players have made and make a list accordingly.

I do not have this issue with any other game. I call the FLGS, find out what is being played on the nights I will be near them and pack my X-Wing, or Warmachine or what ever game it may be. I do not have to worry about the rules because I know the rules for all the other systems are not open ended and need to be house ruled.

isatarin wrote:
All of the common arguments aside my biggest issue with 7th that is killing it for me is the open rules. I travel a lot for work. When I know where I am going to look for a FLGS, see what their popular games are and bring an army of some game accordingly.

I don't necessarily think it's the biggest problem, but yeah, I've always been a proponent of clear and concise rules that are well structured and then if you want to do silly stuff, house rule in the silly stuff. GW have gone down the opposite road of making the game silly,not clear or concise and very poorly structured, so that players have to spend time before each game with a new opponent to decide how they'll house rule it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Blimey Lobomalo, you're so green you're still squeaking.

Your attitude isn't unusual for someone new to playing the game, everything is new and shiny, and that weighs heavily on the scales against the cynicism for those who have seen a few edition cycles.

If I could offer a word of caution, your posting style is coming off as fiercely patronising, it might be worth taking a moment and remembering you're not addressing your students, but a mix of people who will vary from younger kids to those who surpass you in experience, both in game terms and life in general, and try to use that to mitigate your tone a little.

You might find it helps people hear what you are saying if they're not getting riled by the way you're expressing it.

Sorry, this made me laugh again. You're under the assumption that this experience you have grants you more knowledge than me. It doesn't. You just have more exposure to a product, it has no bearing on your overall knowledge of the product. Remember children, experience =/= knowledge.

As for me being patronizing, I get that way when people try and step on that high horse as they have been since I joined these forums.

Just think of me as the guy who shoots that horse in the knee cap whenever you try an climb atop it in an argument and we'll be golden. Not to mention, I doubt they would hear anything I had to say unless it was just as sniveling as what they are crying about. It's okay though, I've gotten all I need from this topic and am satisfied that this really is nothing but a whine fest, nobody is posting anything constructive, so I'm going to go play the game and you know, enjoy it as it is because it is very fun to play indeed.

Have a nice day!

I like the way you keep trying and failing to make parting shots that would make you sound above the people you are arguing with, if only you didn't keep tripping and falling on your face. Amusing none the less.

Perhaps you should spend more time talking with adults on equal ground instead of your English students. Your arguments reek of the presupposition that you are more knowledgeable than those you are arguing with. Of course your failed parting shots confirm that, but really we didn't have to read them to know it anyway.

But really, all these arguments about whining and whining about whining and whiners whining about whiners who are whining about whining there is a common trend of ignoring the content of valid arguments either writing them off as "you're just being too negative!" or some other drivel that derides the person instead of the actual argument or simply arguing something else and ignoring the valid points completely.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Blimey Lobomalo, you're so green you're still squeaking.

Your attitude isn't unusual for someone new to playing the game, everything is new and shiny, and that weighs heavily on the scales against the cynicism for those who have seen a few edition cycles.

If I could offer a word of caution, your posting style is coming off as fiercely patronising, it might be worth taking a moment and remembering you're not addressing your students, but a mix of people who will vary from younger kids to those who surpass you in experience, both in game terms and life in general, and try to use that to mitigate your tone a little.

You might find it helps people hear what you are saying if they're not getting riled by the way you're expressing it.

Sorry, this made me laugh again. You're under the assumption that this experience you have grants you more knowledge than me. It doesn't. You just have more exposure to a product, it has no bearing on your overall knowledge of the product. Remember children, experience =/= knowledge.

As for me being patronizing, I get that way when people try and step on that high horse as they have been since I joined these forums.

Just think of me as the guy who shoots that horse in the knee cap whenever you try an climb atop it in an argument and we'll be golden. Not to mention, I doubt they would hear anything I had to say unless it was just as sniveling as what they are crying about. It's okay though, I've gotten all I need from this topic and am satisfied that this really is nothing but a whine fest, nobody is posting anything constructive, so I'm going to go play the game and you know, enjoy it as it is because it is very fun to play indeed.

Have a nice day!

Do you not see your own high horse you're riding on? Add hypocrisy to your arrogance, and rudeness.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Blimey Lobomalo, you're so green you're still squeaking.

Your attitude isn't unusual for someone new to playing the game, everything is new and shiny, and that weighs heavily on the scales against the cynicism for those who have seen a few edition cycles.

If I could offer a word of caution, your posting style is coming off as fiercely patronising, it might be worth taking a moment and remembering you're not addressing your students, but a mix of people who will vary from younger kids to those who surpass you in experience, both in game terms and life in general, and try to use that to mitigate your tone a little.

You might find it helps people hear what you are saying if they're not getting riled by the way you're expressing it.

Sorry, this made me laugh again. You're under the assumption that this experience you have grants you more knowledge than me. It doesn't. You just have more exposure to a product, it has no bearing on your overall knowledge of the product. Remember children, experience =/= knowledge.

As for me being patronizing, I get that way when people try and step on that high horse as they have been since I joined these forums.

Just think of me as the guy who shoots that horse in the knee cap whenever you try an climb atop it in an argument and we'll be golden. Not to mention, I doubt they would hear anything I had to say unless it was just as sniveling as what they are crying about. It's okay though, I've gotten all I need from this topic and am satisfied that this really is nothing but a whine fest, nobody is posting anything constructive, so I'm going to go play the game and you know, enjoy it as it is because it is very fun to play indeed.

Have a nice day!

You, sir, have a maturity issue. I feel sorry for any child in one of your "classes" that has to sit and listen to someone who thinks so highly of themselves to the point they denounce the opinions of others based on simply disagreeing with them. As a parent, I would also rather not have such a smug little bastard in the general vicinity of my kids, let alone teaching them. If you plan on deriding everyone on a public gaming forum who has a different opinion than you do, then maybe this forum thing isn't for you. You run along and play with your plastic men now...and have a wonderful day

Riding a high horse is difficult, especially when you're balancing it on a soap box!

Sorry, but have you actually read through all of my posts or only the recent ones? Just this thread or the exact conversation going on in another one?

Before you jump to conclusions, open your eyes and actually look around. I have acknowledged every Opinion as this is exactly what we are focusing on here. I am free to disagree with their opinions. They have attempted to portray their opinions as facts and came into the discussion looking for ways to bash the game in its current incarnation. There has been no conversation as to how we as players can come together to fix the issues at hands as GW has allowed us to do, there has only beem talk about how bad GW is at making products, how bad they are at keeping their players, how they only care about money, etc.

Feel free to make a judgment on me if you like, but at least look at the entire conversations across the boards.

You'll notice that I am not the only one reacted too by such hostile people for daring to think that the game as it now is actually fun and enjoyable. You'll also notice that I am also asking people to come up with solutions, rather than rants or complaints.

Am I rude, possibly, matter of opinion really. Can being blunt with the truth be considered rude? Don't we all want to hear the truth?

As for me being full of myself, dude you don't even know me nor have you actually taken the time to get to know me, which you could have easily done had you taken the time to browse my post history. I am neither full of myself, nor am I arrogant and hypocrisy, as one poster has alluded to me, I find this to be hilarious.

Mind you, this is the same poster who, in another thread, one meant to talk about the good things in the game, has made every effort he could to point out how bad things are and how unrealistic they are.

Please, do not come in here, read a few posts and jump on the same lame horse they are all riding on right now. You do not know me and you obviously have made zero effort to try, like the others, you have seen something you don't like and you immediately attack before thinking.

I will ask the same questions I posed earlier in this thread.

Rather than pointing out everything wrong with this game, what can you as a player do to fix things? How can you help others enjoy the game? How can you make things better?

I have yet to see a real answer to these questions, in any thread. All I have seen has been sarcasm and outright hostility. Have I reacted in kind, sure. But when you're dealing with children on forums, sometimes you need to get on their level. Could I have approached it better, sure. If you look back in the topics, you'll find that I indeed have done so. I started off positive, then people jumped in on their lame horse and tried to supplant their negative opinions on those who are simply enjoying the game.

So again, think what you want sir, but before you jump into a conversation, why not read the entire thread and those similar before typing that first key.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Riding a high horse is difficult, especially when you're balancing it on a soap box!

This fits better with those who refuse to acknowledge the good in the game more than it does me, or it would if you took the time and stepped back and thought about the issue at hand, but you haven't and you won't and so you ride in on your own lame horse.

I really feel bad for people who cannot enjoy the game for what it is. It's a game, for some a hobby, for others a lifestyle. Why try so hard and belittle the thing they enjoy? That is the real question here.

Why on a forum where people discuss all things 40k, can people not take a step back and think about a game that has been around for decades, how good it has been for every player. Sure it has its ups and downs as does everything else, but the negativity and hostility I see in these forums since 7th launched, it's disgusting really.

Those players, and they know who they are, who voice such negativity about the game, should wonder why they even play. And if those players are no longer playing as some have stated, why the hell are they coming into the forums to post about a game they quit anyway?

No, you're arrogant, condescending and rude.

And you definitely don't have a monopoly on the truth.
You've offered nothing but arrogant dismissal of anyone that has a different opinion than you.

No one with criticisms of GW have insulted anyone for liking GW. We usually say "That's fine that you like em, Right on." But it's you that keeps bringing up the pointless negativity and saying how anyone that dare question GW has something psychologically wrong with them and refuse to acknowledge that at least some of the complaints are justified.

You're a troll and you're constant rudeness is making this thread all about you. Instead of insulting and dismissing everyone, try talking to them like they're human beings with their own experiences and ideas.

You like GW. That's great. I understand that. I used to be right where you are, defending GW against people that are attacking a game you love.
Dont' take it so personal. Stop with the insults and attacks and please stop with this hollier-than-though "I'm the font of all knowledge and wisdom" routine and realize that people will have different opinions.

I think GW as a company is disgusting. I love 40k and I want to see it get better. I'm sure you love the game. That's cool. But as it is, I can't support the company because I think it's making horrible decisions and I can't reward that sort of behavior

I hope you swallow your pride for a minute and actually listen instead of insulting everyone.

 MWHistorian wrote:
No, you're arrogant, condescending and rude.

And you definitely don't have a monopoly on the truth.
You've offered nothing but arrogant dismissal of anyone that has a different opinion than you.

No one with criticisms of GW have insulted anyone for liking GW. We usually say "That's fine that you like em, Right on." But it's you that keeps bringing up the pointless negativity and saying how anyone that dare question GW has something psychologically wrong with them and refuse to acknowledge that at least some of the complaints are justified.

You're a troll and you're constant rudeness is making this thread all about you. Instead of insulting and dismissing everyone, try talking to them like they're human beings with their own experiences and ideas.

You like GW. That's great. I understand that. I used to be right where you are, defending GW against people that are attacking a game you love.
Dont' take it so personal. Stop with the insults and attacks and please stop with this hollier-than-though "I'm the font of all knowledge and wisdom" routine and realize that people will have different opinions.

I think GW as a company is disgusting. I love 40k and I want to see it get better. I'm sure you love the game. That's cool. But as it is, I can't support the company because I think it's making horrible decisions and I can't reward that sort of behavior

I hope you swallow your pride for a minute and actually listen instead of insulting everyone.

Hypocritical much? I am not arrogant, this is merely your perception of me. If you actually had anything worth saying to read, I'd respond to it but you haven't in multiple threads now. Or did you forget how many people you belittled and talked down to just yesterday in a thread meant to get people talking about the good things in this game?

You think the company is doing bad things, I accept this, you refuse to support them, I accept that. You don't need to say anything else other than that, but you've gone on and on and on incessantly.

I have acknowledged some of their complaints. But these are opinions, things they feel are issues. I do not feel they are issues so I disagree, as is my right.

You call me a troll, not only is that rude but it is completely untrue. Trolls serve no purpose but to cause arguments. I want the arguments to stop as they are pointless and destructive. I stepped away from conversations and you people continue insulting me when I was done with the discussion. That is more of a troll than anything I have done.

Did I say I was the only one with the truth? Never. And you won't find otherwise. I said the truth is simply the truth, others may find it rude but it isn't the truth just is. Telling the truth, no matter how much it pisses you off, is justified as you need to hear it.

Condescending, not really, not my style. I don't think I am above anyone nor do I act like it. In fact, it has been you and others who have come at me with your "superiority" of experience and all that crap. Not the other way around. I see most of you as equals and a couple of you as superiors to me. I don't look down or think I am better than any of you, nor do I think I am smarter. I do however think I am more open minded, but this is something that is more common with my generation as a whole, so it isn't something exclusive to me.

And none of you, not a single one of you and I have checked, have said anything positive to those who like the game. You begin with something nice, then its "But this and but that" you never let them actually enjoy the experience, you have to find some way to crush them. This is what gets me into the conversations. Look through my posts since I have joined, you will find that I only get involved in arguments when "other people" come in acting like they know better or that they are better.

You may not like what I have to say and that is fine, but do not sit there and act like you are not doing the same things you accuse me of.


Also, one last thing.

Show me exactly where I insulted anyone. Not me expressing an obvious truth, like when I say veteran players are stubborn, close minded and don't like change as this has been literally proven true in every discussion on every one of the topics on this board whenever anyone brings up anything, positive or negative about the game.

Hypocritical much? I am not arrogant, this is merely your perception of me.

Okay, valid point here. No one can REALLY know someone based purely on a conversation online...

If you actually had anything worth saying to read, I'd respond to it but you haven't in multiple threads now. Or did you forget how many people you belittled and talked down to just yesterday in a thread meant to get people talking about the good things in this game?

I...just...What?

How do you go from saying,

I am not arrogant

to

If you actually had anything worth saying to read, I'd respond to it but you haven't in multiple threads now.

That is text book arrogance. Deeming people unimportant enough to respond to because you feel that they are unworthy?

Anyway...back on topic that was lost so long ago. GW can never win in the way you describe. It is really that simple, all because there are thousands of people who play this game and all of them have different ideas and different goals. If someone loves Tyranids they are going to be disappointed when they pick up the 6th codex, if someone HATES Tyranids and reads the 6th codex they will be happy. If someone loves Eldar they will love the 6th codex, if someone HATES Eldar they will hate the 6th codex.

The issue here is that you are basing an argument on opinion and trying to state facts about it. The only facts that we can really argue are the clarity and the exact nature of the rules, the value of the product based on its competition, and things of that nature. You are trying to apply subjective feelings to what most people see as an objective criticism. It is really easy to see that other game companies put more time and effort into writing their rules out than GW does. That says nothing of whether or not the rules are good, just that they are not well written. We can objectively say that GW models are priced at a premium, we can not say that makes them overpriced except on a personal level.

People are very critical of GW because for a lot of us it has been ten, fifteen, twenty, or more years and thousands of dollars invested into this game. I COULD sell my armies and walk away but...I still like the game enough to swallow my problems and just go have a good time with my friends. I don't WANT to sell off hundreds of hours of my work and effort and forget that it ever happened, I WANT the company that puts of this game to do a better job then they are currently doing.

Contrary to what you believe, I have read your posts during this topic, and based on them you seem arrogant, rude, immature, and highly pretentious. I don't care if you "see it" or not, but that's exactly my perception of you at this point as well as the perceptions of the vast majority of the people who have been posting in this thread. Are we all wrong and you're the only one who's right? I'm sure that's exactly what you think. You come off as someone to avoid even speaking with, something I might attempt to do once in real life, realize what you're like, and then not bother with you again. I'll do us both a favor now and make good on that statement. I recommend everyone just dropping this entire conversation and moving on to other topics, and simply avoid interacting with this person, seeing how he is here only to judge and deride, not discuss.

Mob mentality is never a valid way to make an opinion of someone. Think what you want, but do not sit there and presume to judge me.

Sorry, you read my posts, have you bothered to acknowledge the points I have brought up? Not seeing anything yet. In fact, you have made two posts in this thread, both of which attacking me. Now tell me, who is being rude?

If you met me in person, you'd probably like me once you got to know me, most people usually do. I'm a fairly down to earth and friendly guy. I just don't like when people get on their high horse and try to bring people down to their level.

You'll notice that if you looked around my posts.

You want a discussion.

Answer some questions.

How can you as a player improve the game for yourself and others?

How can you as a player bring back that good feeling you once had when playing this game?

I have asked questions like these multiple times and received no real answer, just sarcasm and rudeness. I respond in kind.

Either way, should you not wish to converse with me again that is your choice, but look around before you make judgments, I have been on these forums 8 days and already I have had to block a few dozen people for being outright rude and hostile, so do not pretend that I am this villain you have made me out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That is text book arrogance. Deeming people unimportant enough to respond to because you feel that they are unworthy?

Anyway...back on topic that was lost so long ago. GW can never win in the way you describe. It is really that simple, all because there are thousands of people who play this game and all of them have different ideas and different goals. If someone loves Tyranids they are going to be disappointed when they pick up the 6th codex, if someone HATES Tyranids and reads the 6th codex they will be happy. If someone loves Eldar they will love the 6th codex, if someone HATES Eldar they will hate the 6th codex.

The issue here is that you are basing an argument on opinion and trying to state facts about it. The only facts that we can really argue are the clarity and the exact nature of the rules, the value of the product based on its competition, and things of that nature. You are trying to apply subjective feelings to what most people see as an objective criticism. It is really easy to see that other game companies put more time and effort into writing their rules out than GW does. That says nothing of whether or not the rules are good, just that they are not well written. We can objectively say that GW models are priced at a premium, we can not say that makes them overpriced except on a personal level.

People are very critical of GW because for a lot of us it has been ten, fifteen, twenty, or more years and thousands of dollars invested into this game. I COULD sell my armies and walk away but...I still like the game enough to swallow my problems and just go have a good time with my friends. I don't WANT to sell off hundreds of hours of my work and effort and forget that it ever happened, I WANT the company that puts of this game to do a better job then they are currently doing.

Have you considered that the reason why other games run better is that they are smaller? Warmachine for instance is much easier to manage, it's small scale skirmishes and while fun, get old rather fast and tend to favor certain things.

It is rather impossible for GW to satisfy everyone.

Citing your answer in regards to Tyranids and 6th. Tyranids were the army I began with and to be honest, I thought the codex for them wasn't that great. I saw my friends codex for the DA, loved it. You cannot satisfy everyone, only the majority. The majority of the players at the time were spamming Tau/Eldar/IG, this can be seen simply by looking at purchase history and special orders from hobby shops. Of course they would shift things to focus attention on that, that is what is selling.

Above all, GW is a business, they are in this to make money. We are in this to play games and enjoy a wonderful hobby. We knew their prices were outrageous when we got into the game, yet here we are, playing it still, buying into it still. Is this then a fault in GW for over-pricing, or a fault with us for continuing to buy from them?

Me, I only buy used now. Bought my last new product today, I would much rather pay %50 of retail, strip and repaint then dump double and pay full price.

 Lobomalo wrote:
And none of you, not a single one of you and I have checked, have said anything positive to those who like the game. You begin with something nice, then its "But this and but that" you never let them actually enjoy the experience, you have to find some way to crush them.

Why should we say anything positive when there is nothing positive about the game to praise? You're right back to complaining about how negative everyone is without addressing the substance of any of their criticism.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
And none of you, not a single one of you and I have checked, have said anything positive to those who like the game. You begin with something nice, then its "But this and but that" you never let them actually enjoy the experience, you have to find some way to crush them.

Why should we say anything positive when there is nothing positive about the game to praise? You're right back to complaining about how negative everyone is without addressing the substance of any of their criticism.

Wait...what?

Am I correctly understanding that you're saying, Peregrine, that there is not one single positive aspect to Warhammer 40k?

I can't possibly be reading that right, can I? I have to have missed something in the last seven pages, where we shifted topics.

Is that seriously the assertion?

The only negative things I have when it comes to the game are the pricing, metal models, resin models and the inability to buy bits in bulk in stores.

From the armies I have played with and against, they have their good points and their bad, but all are awesome in their own way. I love the new addition but have had issues with some players from older editions who prefer things played differently, we roll off and determine from there or defer to hobby store manager.

I generally discount any perceived balance issues because any imbalance can be countered by tactics and forethought which I have seen multiple times. Interestingly, most of my places to play, the dominating armies aren't even ones people would consider very strong right now.

 Lobomalo wrote:
How can you as a player improve the game for yourself and others?

By playing other games instead, and by supporting other people in finding new games to play instead.

How can you as a player bring back that good feeling you once had when playing this game?

Not possible. That good feeling, at least in my case, depends on ignorance of the game's flaws. Once you've learned how bad the game is you can't go back and pretend you don't know about those things.

Have you considered that the reason why other games run better is that they are smaller? Warmachine for instance is much easier to manage, it's small scale skirmishes and while fun, get old rather fast and tend to favor certain things.

MTG has way more complexity than 40k and has none of 40k's rule problems and much less of 40k's balance issues. 40k runs badly because 40k's rules are badly designed and balance is nonexistent, not because of how big the game is.

Above all, GW is a business, they are in this to make money. We are in this to play games and enjoy a wonderful hobby. We knew their prices were outrageous when we got into the game, yet here we are, playing it still, buying into it still. Is this then a fault in GW for over-pricing, or a fault with us for continuing to buy from them?

It's GW's fault, because they're sacrificing long-term growth in favor of immediate profit. This isn't outrage at GW running a business, it's about GW running a business badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Am I correctly understanding that you're saying, Peregrine, that there is not one single positive aspect to Warhammer 40k?

About the game itself (as opposed to the models/fluff/etc)? Nope, not really. The absolute best I can say about anything in the 40k rules is that they're kind of adequate for playing occasional games with your models, as long as you don't have very high expectations and mostly just want an excuse to take your toys off the display shelf. If I had to update the game I would be surprised if a single rule survived intact.

Have you considered that the reason why other games run better is that they are smaller? Warmachine for instance is much easier to manage, it's small scale skirmishes and while fun, get old rather fast and tend to favor certain things.

It is rather impossible for GW to satisfy everyone.

Citing your answer in regards to Tyranids and 6th. Tyranids were the army I began with and to be honest, I thought the codex for them wasn't that great. I saw my friends codex for the DA, loved it. You cannot satisfy everyone, only the majority. The majority of the players at the time were spamming Tau/Eldar/IG, this can be seen simply by looking at purchase history and special orders from hobby shops. Of course they would shift things to focus attention on that, that is what is selling.

Above all, GW is a business, they are in this to make money. We are in this to play games and enjoy a wonderful hobby. We knew their prices were outrageous when we got into the game, yet here we are, playing it still, buying into it still. Is this then a fault in GW for over-pricing, or a fault with us for continuing to buy from them?

Me, I only buy used now. Bought my last new product today, I would much rather pay %50 of retail, strip and repaint then dump double and pay full price.

No, it is not because they are smaller. I think Warmahordes rules are terrible, even when held up next to 40k. But you have to give it to Warmahordes that their rules are written much better and much clearer than GW.

And maybe YOU got into this game while the prices were outrageous but as I said, some of us have been here a long time. GW being a business doesn't excuse them from terrible practices, just like it doesn't excuse any other business with predatory business tactics. I don't buy EA games because EA has proven time and time again that they do not care about quality or their customers. GW at least cares about quality in their models. A business has to compete for customers, so it is in their interest to treat their customers right, so no they are no in this to make money and only make money. They are in this to make money and to cultivate their business, which means caring for their customers. This mentality to me is far more disturbing than anything else you have exhibited in this thread. As a culinary professional I can tell you a thing or two about price gouging and taking advantage of customers, I can also tell you how it is a short term stagey that quickly leads to shut down. The current GW business model is focused solely on the short term and making a quick buck off of their customers. The numbers are all out in the open for the public to see and it shows that GW is not doing so hot and unless they change something 40k/WFB could well be on their way to a buyout. Sadly I can see GW being the vindictive kind and looking to make another quick buck off of the IP and refusing the sell it less than their asking price and thus completely destroying the IP rather than see it carried on under another company.

Magic the Gathering, something I've played competitively since Arabian Knights has never really been balanced. Tournaments have boiled down to whoever throws the most money into their deck, especially in the states. Also, rule issues galore, especially in Elder Dragon Highlander as this is where you will find the bulk of the veteran players as standard has boiled down to a money pit. Similar issues in over-pricing if you play standard or extended that GW has and Wizards has on multiple occasions had to flat out ban cards the instant they were released as they were over-powered and broke the game, not to mention their stock takes dives every other set or so it seems, with the biggest dip coming from the original Mirrodin block.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Sorry, but have you actually read through all of my posts or only the recent ones? Just this thread or the exact conversation going on in another one?

Before you jump to conclusions, open your eyes and actually look around. I have acknowledged every Opinion as this is exactly what we are focusing on here. I am free to disagree with their opinions. They have attempted to portray their opinions as facts and came into the discussion looking for ways to bash the game in its current incarnation. There has been no conversation as to how we as players can come together to fix the issues at hands as GW has allowed us to do, there has only beem talk about how bad GW is at making products, how bad they are at keeping their players, how they only care about money, etc.

I'm not paying $90 fething dollars for an incomplete ruleset. I'm sorry, I wouldn't even do it for a free ruleset. The fact that Games Workshop lets us fix their own mistakes in their books does not excuse those mistakes.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Have you considered that the reason why other games run better is that they are smaller? Warmachine for instance is much easier to manage, it's small scale skirmishes and while fun, get old rather fast and tend to favor certain things.

It is rather impossible for GW to satisfy everyone.

Citing your answer in regards to Tyranids and 6th. Tyranids were the army I began with and to be honest, I thought the codex for them wasn't that great. I saw my friends codex for the DA, loved it. You cannot satisfy everyone, only the majority. The majority of the players at the time were spamming Tau/Eldar/IG, this can be seen simply by looking at purchase history and special orders from hobby shops. Of course they would shift things to focus attention on that, that is what is selling.

Above all, GW is a business, they are in this to make money. We are in this to play games and enjoy a wonderful hobby. We knew their prices were outrageous when we got into the game, yet here we are, playing it still, buying into it still. Is this then a fault in GW for over-pricing, or a fault with us for continuing to buy from them?

Me, I only buy used now. Bought my last new product today, I would much rather pay %50 of retail, strip and repaint then dump double and pay full price.

No, it is not because they are smaller. I think Warmahordes rules are terrible, even when held up next to 40k. But you have to give it to Warmahordes that their rules are written much better and much clearer than GW.

And maybe YOU got into this game while the prices were outrageous but as I said, some of us have been here a long time. GW being a business doesn't excuse them from terrible practices, just like it doesn't excuse any other business with predatory business tactics. I don't buy EA games because EA has proven time and time again that they do not care about quality or their customers. GW at least cares about quality in their models. A business has to compete for customers, so it is in their interest to treat their customers right, so no they are no in this to make money and only make money. They are in this to make money and to cultivate their business, which means caring for their customers. This mentality to me is far more disturbing than anything else you have exhibited in this thread. As a culinary professional I can tell you a thing or two about price gouging and taking advantage of customers, I can also tell you how it is a short term stagey that quickly leads to shut down. The current GW business model is focused solely on the short term and making a quick buck off of their customers. The numbers are all out in the open for the public to see and it shows that GW is not doing so hot and unless they change something 40k/WFB could well be on their way to a buyout. Sadly I can see GW being the vindictive kind and looking to make another quick buck off of the IP and refusing the sell it less than their asking price and thus completely destroying the IP rather than see it carried on under another company.

The rules are indeed clearer, but this could be due to size. As for price gouging, as a culinary professional, you know first hand how over-priced things can get, its sickening, I agree, but it doesn't make it a bad business practice. You make less money overall when everyone can afford your product. I do not agree with this mentality at all. People shouldn't need to dump paychecks to play a game. I don't think GW will go out of business though. People said the same thing about Wizards of the Coast multiple times over the last 15+ years and it's never happened, the same held true for Blizzard and EA. Prices stay how they are because people continue to buy them. If people stop buying, owners notice, then prices drop.

Also, it's less of an issue if you buy from 3rd parties like Amazon or Ebay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Sorry, but have you actually read through all of my posts or only the recent ones? Just this thread or the exact conversation going on in another one?

Before you jump to conclusions, open your eyes and actually look around. I have acknowledged every Opinion as this is exactly what we are focusing on here. I am free to disagree with their opinions. They have attempted to portray their opinions as facts and came into the discussion looking for ways to bash the game in its current incarnation. There has been no conversation as to how we as players can come together to fix the issues at hands as GW has allowed us to do, there has only beem talk about how bad GW is at making products, how bad they are at keeping their players, how they only care about money, etc.

I'm not paying $90 fething dollars for an incomplete ruleset. I'm sorry, I wouldn't even do it for a free ruleset.

Neither would I, hence why I downloaded mine. I won't pay more than $40 for a book and it better be a damn good book. Though to be fair, judging by the amount of work put into the art and design of the book, it does warrant the pricing. Look at the larger full color graphic novels or comics, and I mean the big ones. Easily $50-$60 on average.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I love the new addition but have had issues with some players from older editions who prefer things played differently, we roll off and determine from there or defer to hobby store manager.

The fact that this happens at all should be a sign that the game is broken. A good game has clear rules and doesn't require constant roll-offs to decide how to do something. Even when you have players who started in previous editions the most you should ever have to do is open the rulebook to the appropriate page and see what it has to say.

I generally discount any perceived balance issues because any imbalance can be countered by tactics and forethought which I have seen multiple times.

And this is just wrong. If you think "tactics" is a magic word that makes all of the balance problems go away then you really don't understand the game very well. If you have a game between players of equal skill, one with a list full of GW's overpowered balance mistakes and one with a starter set and some tactical squads it isn't going to be a game, it's going to be an execution.

Interestingly, most of my places to play, the dominating armies aren't even ones people would consider very strong right now.

In my experience this is a "big fish in a small pond" thing. You have a bunch of people with limited skill and really bad armies, and then you add a person or two with a mid-tier army and decent skill. The mid-tier players are going to slaughter the weak armies and newbies with their battleforces even if they would have no chance against a top-tier tournament list with a skilled player. As long as the community never gets any of those top-tier lists/players the mid-tier player will continue to dominate simply because they never encounter any tough competition. In contrast, you'll notice that large events (which attract good players from all over the country) tend to be much more predictable. There might be an occasional surprise with the winning list, but the top few players overall will be pretty representative of what the community as a whole considers overpowered.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Am I correctly understanding that you're saying, Peregrine, that there is not one single positive aspect to Warhammer 40k?

About the game itself (as opposed to the models/fluff/etc)? Nope, not really. The absolute best I can say about anything in the 40k rules is that they're kind of adequate for playing occasional games with your models, as long as you don't have very high expectations and mostly just want an excuse to take your toys off the display shelf. If I had to update the game I would be surprised if a single rule survived intact.

I guess I'm confused. Aren't the models/fluff an intrinsic part of the game?

Here is the problem with that argument: Letting fans fix the rules is misguided at best and a completely foolish at worst. See, proffesional companies lack (for the most part) bias towards certain armies and playstyles but your average 40k player has a fixed idea of how the game should play. Some players want assault to be buffed to hell while others want further nerfs, for example. Neither is ideal but if it were in the hands of the fans you would end up in situations that would be unfair to some players.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is the problem with that argument: Letting fans fix the rules is misguided at best and a completely foolish at worst. See, proffesional companies lack (for the most part) bias towards certain armies and playstyles but your average 40k player has a fixed idea of how the game should play. Some players want assault to be buffed to hell while others want further nerfs.

I agree and disagree with this. Citing other games for example.

MtG, Elder Dragon Highlander was purely a player driven concept and had no set rules from Wizards at all. It even had an accepted ban list composed by the majority of players. It thrived very well and then Wizards incorporated it into a valid game format, made money off of it and named it Commander.

For 40k, I can see minor changes as good, like ditching the rolls for Traits and Powers, its too time consuming. But if I recall correctly, and I know I do, GW allows for players to freely adjust rules as they see fit. This could both be very good and dangerously bad depending on the player.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Tournaments have boiled down to whoever throws the most money into their deck, especially in the states.

Nope. There's a certain price factor since cards that appear in popular decks will increase significantly in price as a result of that popularity, but "buy all the expensive stuff" has never been substitute for good skill. And if you manage to discover a new deck before everyone else starts buying the key cards and driving up the price you can win a tournament without spending much money.

Also, rule issues galore, especially in Elder Dragon Highlander

Nope. If EDH has any rule issues it is because of the extra rules the EDH community has added to their game. The MTG rules do not have any rule questions that can not be answered by simply consulting the rulebook and reading the answer (and if you do find one, expect it to be fixed very quickly).

Similar issues in over-pricing if you play standard or extended that GW has and Wizards has on multiple occasions had to flat out ban cards the instant they were released as they were over-powered and broke the game,

Nope, not even close. Instant bans happened exactly once, in the entire history of the game, and it was for one card in extremely unusual circumstances. Since then cards have not been banned without extensive tournament use proving that they are a balance problem, and bans overall have been pretty rare in the "modern" era.

not to mention their stock takes dives every other set or so it seems, with the biggest dip coming from the original Mirrodin block.

You realize that Mirrodin was ten years ago, right? Yes, they did have some problems around that time, but the game has grown significantly since then.

I don't know that I'd go about holding MTG up as an 'enjoyable' game.

It's like heroin. You might like it when you start, but nobody with any real time under their belt is doing it because they enjoy it anymore. They do it because they're addicted.

That being said, as a GW apologist, even I've had to admit that they need to make some changes. (Not total capitulation to the whiniest elements of the fanbase, but changes.) Possibly big ones. There has been a noticeable, and very serious hit to their revenue, and while I try not to armchair quarterback business decisions, given that I have no background in business or finance, even I think it's reached the point where they need to address it in a serious way. I don't know what that might be, but something's got to give.